Helander over Katic

Katic is clearly being managed to build his confidence and stature properly as he’s a young player who, if managed properly, will have a huge career ahead of him. SG conniving to get certain players in the team is utter nonsense. He’s the manager and has no issues at all about playing who he thinks will do the best job, or managing young players properly. I remember him saying when he first came in that one of our young players (can’t remember who) could’ve been ruined by being recklessly thrown in. There’s a reason he’s Rangers manager and not speaking about it on the internet.

Ross McCrorie at CD v the scum at Hampden ?
 
Katic had 1 bad game vs Livi....where he had an
Katic had 1 bad game vs Livi where he had an of then pace Halliday alongside him and Goldson was having a poor game too that day. That’s Katic only poor game....Goldson has had a few poor games. He is dreadful in possession and I lose count how often he gives possession away.

Katic for me is the better player between him and Goldson and I see better value for Rangers in developing and maturing Katic with game time alongside Helander.

Goldson is the better all round player of the 2, but I understand why folk think differently because of Katics style of play.
 
There is no doubt the defence looks more solid
Barasic is a different player and a left footed CB and LB give more balance.
Exactly this.

I think Katic will have to wait for Goldson to be dropped/injured for a place in the first choice team now.

I believe Helander is our only naturally left footed CB.
 
People are irritated because they genuinely believe they know better

That’s the beauty of football though - people who are far from expert on it are happy to argue with those who are.

Many fans believe Katic has played better than Goldson ergo if anyone is to drop out it should be the latter, but they don’t know what criteria Gerrard employs to make that decision.

He sees them in training and may feel Goldson and Helander have a better balance and understanding than Katic and the Swede.

The idea that he just likes Goldson more even though he knows Katic is better is just daft.

Gerrard is the expert in this case so I’m happy to bow to his decision on this one.
 
Helander was brought in for big money to PARTNER Goldson.

Katic started the season well and Gerrard couldn't drop him because he was probably aware of the uproar this would cause if the result went against us.

Katic got ragdolled in back to back games against Celtic and Livi but Goldson gets the benefit of the doubt because he's been an ever present and a fairly reliable player for us.

The partnership between Goldson and Helander has started with a lot of promise and Goldson was our best defender yesterday, he cleared everything in his path.

Goldson gets a big of a raw deal because he quite simply has to do more than any of our other defenders, our LB naturally offers more cover (whether it's Borna, Halliday or Flanagan) than Tav does.
 
That’s the beauty of football though - people who are far from expert on it are happy to argue with those who are.

Many fans believe Katic has played better than Goldson ergo if anyone is to drop out it should be the latter, but they don’t know what criteria Gerrard employs to make that decision.

He sees them in training and may feel Goldson and Helander have a better balance and understanding than Katic and the Swede.

The idea that he just likes Goldson more even though he knows Katic is better is just daft.

Gerrard is the expert in this case so I’m happy to bow to his decision on this one.
Worrall last season must have looked fantastic in training. :))
 
That’s the beauty of football though - people who are far from expert on it are happy to argue with those who are.

Many fans believe Katic has played better than Goldson ergo if anyone is to drop out it should be the latter, but they don’t know what criteria Gerrard employs to make that decision.

He sees them in training and may feel Goldson and Helander have a better balance and understanding than Katic and the Swede.

The idea that he just likes Goldson more even though he knows Katic is better is just daft.

Gerrard is the expert in this case so I’m happy to bow to his decision on this one.

You do have a very good point HH.

We wouldn’t argue with a brain surgeon about his job, but we would with a football manager.

So while I agree with you, why aren’t people allowed an opinion on Katic v Goldson but yet everyone had an opinion that seemed to be allowed that Steven made an error playing Defoe against Celtic ?

Certain people use Gerrard’s Authority when it suits them.
 
Helander is by far our best CH his reading of game is exemplary and is far the most comfortable with the ball at his feet. Katic is a beast and will learn even more from Helander. Katic is still young enough and I have no doubt his time will come. Be patient Niko you will have a great future at this great club.
 
It's not rocket science.

Helander was brought in because he was seen to make the defence better-he has a good pedigree-time will tell whether he's good enough. In my opinion he looks at least as good as what we have probably better .

Goldson is not perfect but reasonably steady he has had his rocky moments-overall I would place him above Katic.

Katic continues to be both swash buckling and prone to bad errors-a lot we've got away with but has serious potential to go further in the game.

I'm inclined to rely on the manager who sees the stats, the daily training and ability of players.

I'd hazard a guess that Goldson has been directly responsible for conceding more goals than Katic has.

Katic is clearly being managed to build his confidence and stature properly as he’s a young player who, if managed properly, will have a huge career ahead of him. SG conniving to get certain players in the team is utter nonsense. He’s the manager and has no issues at all about playing who he thinks will do the best job, or managing young players properly. I remember him saying when he first came in that one of our young players (can’t remember who) could’ve been ruined by being recklessly thrown in. There’s a reason he’s Rangers manager and not speaking about it on the internet.

Not buying this at all tbh. Katic is 22, not 16. If he can't cope with playing football every week then he should take up another sport. Same goes for those who think Morelos shouldn't start 2 games a week.
 
He's a professional footballer, he shouldn't be happy at not being in the starting eleven. Neither should any player in the squad. If he wanted to go his agent and look for a move, good luck to him, as things stand, he wouldn't get a move to a club even half the size of Rangers.

To put things in perspective, Gerrard has taken Katic out of the team and replaced him with Helander. In those two games, we've seen our most impressive performance of the season and our highest scoring away win. I'll take that, what's best for Rangers takes precedence over a fan favourites happiness and personal development plan.

We've had bigger and better players sitting in the stand than Nikola Katic. He's a 22 year old developing centre half, very few if any of those have been stick on starters in my time watching Rangers. He's got much further to go to make himself indispensable to the starting 11.

Second half vs Feyenoord we were poor. The manager admitted that himself. Also worth noting that neither Goldson or Helanders performance in that game was as good as Katic's vs Legia. Pumping St Johnstone has nothing to do with the defence either tbh, in fact they had a few shaky moments between them at which McGregor went off his nut at them.
 
Katic is clearly being managed to build his confidence and stature properly as he’s a young player who, if managed properly, will have a huge career ahead of him. SG conniving to get certain players in the team is utter nonsense. He’s the manager and has no issues at all about playing who he thinks will do the best job, or managing young players properly. I remember him saying when he first came in that one of our young players (can’t remember who) could’ve been ruined by being recklessly thrown in. There’s a reason he’s Rangers manager and not speaking about it on the internet.
This.

Katic has done well so far BECAUSE of the management he's been given the last year.

He's a talent, there's no doubt, but to suggest conspiracies or that he's our best CB is nonsense.

We've no idea what's been said between the manager and the player, to suggest there's an issue is stupid. As is expecting the manager to explain what's going on between them.

Goldson is a superb CB, best in the league Imo. He's also, statistically, the better player and our club vice captain. All players make mistakes, especially in the markets we shop, but some of the things that have been said about him are a disgrace. He ran himself into the ground for us last season, and will again this season, and is a winner and a leader (Gerrard words)

Having favourites is normal but the comments on here have often crossed a line.
 
Second half vs Feyenoord we were poor. The manager admitted that himself. Also worth noting that neither Goldson or Helanders performance in that game was as good as Katic's vs Legia. Pumping St Johnstone has nothing to do with the defence either tbh, in fact they had a few shaky moments between them at which McGregor went off his nut at them.
We were not poor in the 2nd half and Gerrard said nothing of the sort. We set up to block off the middle of the pitch and let them have the ball in areas they couldn't hurt us. It was part of a strategy.
 
You do have a very good point HH.

We wouldn’t argue with a brain surgeon about his job, but we would with a football manager.

So while I agree with you, why aren’t people allowed an opinion on Katic v Goldson but yet everyone had an opinion that seemed to be allowed that Steven made an error playing Defoe against Celtic ?

Certain people use Gerrard’s Authority when it suits them.

Gerrard isn't infallible. He’s the first to admit it when he gets things wrong, but this debate is beginning to stray into the realms of suggesting Gerrard is unfairly excluding Katic when in this case I highly doubt that to be the case. If it was it would be hugely unprofessional and we’re then left having to consider that we have a manager prone to arbitrary whims and petty prejudices and I don’t think any of us believe that.

He’s the manager, he makes the decisions.

He’ll get some wrong, I just don’t think this is one.
 
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You do have a very good point HH.

We wouldn’t argue with a brain surgeon about his job, but we would with a football manager.

So while I agree with you, why aren’t people allowed an opinion on Katic v Goldson but yet everyone had an opinion that seemed to be allowed that Steven made an error playing Defoe against Celtic ?

Certain people use Gerrard’s Authority when it suits them.
This is a forum for dicussion on all things Rangers. It would be a poorer place if we weren't discussing team selection/formation.
For the record, Gerrard did make a lady's front bottom of it v Celtic.
 
Gerrard isn't infallible. He’s the first to admit it when he gets things wrong, but this debate is beginning to stray into the realms of suggesting Gerrard is unfairly excluding Katic when in this case I highly doubt that to be the case. If it was it would be hugely unprofessional and we’re then left having to consider that we have a manager probe to arbitrary whims and petty prejudices and I don’t think any of us believe that.

He’s the manager, he makes the decisions.

He’ll get some wrong, I just don’t think this is one.

I don’t believe for a second it’s due to lack of professionalism or objectivity for a second mate.

What I do believe is that in the 6 matches or so up to the Livi match that Katic many times saved a shaky looking Goldson on numerous occasions. Then he’s out.

What I think is that Steven has a bit of a blind spot as to Goldson’s weaknesses.

You feel different & the manager agrees with you. But my opinion still stands & that’s why we have a forum.

It wasn’t so long ago everyone on FF was raving about Kamara, and I was a lone voice. I’ll trust my opinions even if they are contrary to the majority, and Steven Gerrard.
 
This is a forum for dicussion on all things Rangers. It would be a poorer place if we weren't discussing team selection/formation.
For the record, Gerrard did make a lady's front bottom of it v Celtic.

Thanks Alex. That’s all I’m saying.

We will never all agree, but who is to say who is right & who is wrong ?
 
This is a forum for dicussion on all things Rangers. It would be a poorer place if we weren't discussing team selection/formation.
For the record, Gerrard did make a lady's front bottom of it v Celtic.

Can’t disagree with a word of what you’ve written there mate.

The endless threads and debate on Katic, however, is reaching epidemic proportions though. I get the irony of me now contributing but it is getting tiresome - whatever your views on the player in question. It’s got to the stage now where another player is being lambasted because the Manager is picking him ahead of Katic.
 
That’s the beauty of football though - people who are far from expert on it are happy to argue with those who are.

Many fans believe Katic has played better than Goldson ergo if anyone is to drop out it should be the latter, but they don’t know what criteria Gerrard employs to make that decision.

He sees them in training and may feel Goldson and Helander have a better balance and understanding than Katic and the Swede.

The idea that he just likes Goldson more even though he knows Katic is better is just daft.

Gerrard is the expert in this case so I’m happy to bow to his decision on this one.
It’s not just that Gerrard is the expert, it’s that he’ll be taking advice, guidance even,from other qualified experts.
 
I think Katic has been unlucky but there is something going on. Perhaps he has an injury, perhaps there was a fall out. Perhaps Gerrard just decided to give others a go.

I think Katic is a better defender than Goldson. I also think Goldson has given more reason to be dropped than Katic did.

Who knows what is going on but I'd really like to see Katic and Helander together in central defence. I'd even like to see Edmunson given a go over Goldson as well. That said, the big man did pitch in with a fine header to score a goal so I'll leave him be for now.
 
So you believe Gerrard just has it in for Katic, that he’s selecting players on something other than ability alone?

I believe this time last season Gerrard broke up the strongest part of our team to play Worrall and he's doing it again to play Helander, who still does not look match fit 15 games into the season which is concerning.
Goldson is also a bit of a golden boy who can make mistakes yet still play, Katic gets no such favour.
 
Second half vs Feyenoord we were poor. The manager admitted that himself. Also worth noting that neither Goldson or Helanders performance in that game was as good as Katic's vs Legia. Pumping St Johnstone has nothing to do with the defence either tbh, in fact they had a few shaky moments between them at which McGregor went off his nut at them.

We weren't poor 2nd half against Feyenoord and Gerrard said nothing of the sort. Helander was brilliant on Thursday night. Feyenoord are a better team and have better players than Legia Warsaw.

I think you miss the point. If dropping Katic was such a disastrous decision from Gerrard, I'd have expected to see it have a far more detrimental impact rather than seeing our best performance of the season and our biggest away win.

Oh dear shaky moments and Allan McGregor shouting. Allan McGregor shouts all the time like he did through Katic's shaky moments in his most recent games against Celtic and Livingston.
 
Gerrard isn't infallible. He’s the first to admit it when he gets things wrong, but this debate is beginning to stray into the realms of suggesting Gerrard is unfairly excluding Katic when in this case I highly doubt that to be the case. If it was it would be hugely unprofessional and we’re then left having to consider that we have a manager prone to arbitrary whims and petty prejudices and I don’t think any of us believe that.

He’s the manager, he makes the decisions.

He’ll get some wrong, I just don’t think this is one.
More than that, he’s got a future career to forge and protect.
He’s not going to do that by deliberately sabotaging his current job.
He rates Katic, he has said so and, if he didn’t, he could have sold him in the summer.
 
We weren't poor 2nd half against Feyenoord and Gerrard said nothing of the sort. Helander was brilliant on Thursday night. Feyenoord are a better team and have better players than Legia Warsaw.

I think you miss the point. If dropping Katic was such a disastrous decision from Gerrard, I'd have expected to see it have a far more detrimental impact rather than seeing our best performance of the season and our biggest away win.

Oh dear shaky moments and Allan McGregor shouting. Allan McGregor shouts all the time like he did through Katic's shaky moments in his most recent games against Celtic and Livingston.

We struggled to keep possession in the second half and invited pressure. Fair enough that can always happen in games, especially against better opponents but we rode our luck - especially at set pieces where Goldson and Helander both lost their men and they had two great chances from it.

I'm not saying Katic is perfect, far from it. But I think the main issue is that Goldson is undroppable no matter how badly he plays.
 
I believe this time last season Gerrard broke up the strongest part of our team to play Worrall and he's doing it again to play Helander, who still does not look match fit 15 games into the season which is concerning.
Goldson is also a bit of a golden boy who can make mistakes yet still play, Katic gets no such favour.

So your answer to my question is basically ‘yes’?
 
Katic is very good but he does have his flaws. He's a fan favourite because he has a crowd pleasing style and likes flying into tackles/aerial challenges but there's a lot more to defending than that stuff.

like not giving the ball away with slack passes that cause goals?
Or fancying about in the box and allowing strikers to steal the ball. Or even get in the way of your fellow central defender and allow the opposition to get the ball and score.

Goldson has been responsible for about 6 goals last season and this. I cannot think of one goal Katic has been directly responsible for apart from in Moscow, where Goldson was awful also.
Both have lots of good games , however only one player is getting dropped when he has a bad game.

I’m sorry I don’t think that is good man management and I still have concerns that SG won’t sort out our central defence because he has a bias towards a certain type of defender like Carragher.

Goldson scores a good goal yesterday but he was still doing the same error he has done since the season started of making poor passes into the midfield causing counter attacks. Again he got away with it, however against someone half decent like the scum he gets punished.

Nobody dislikes any player, however I see constant excuses getting made for Goldson who has caused more goals then Katic due to his defensive play while Katic gets slated for getting turned by a few players and having a few dodgy league games.
He is right footed playing on the left and has never had a regular left back next to him.
I agree Helander needs game time now as he is probably the best of the lot at the moment however I feel it is a bad decision for Goldson to constantly get picked ahead of Katic.
 
To me the best long term partnership would be Hellander and Katic. However we are not seeing these players off the park. Katic hasn’t been dropped for no reason.

Goldson’s distribution yesterday was woeful. There is a reason why he is still first choice but we are not seeing it.
 
We have to remember that Katic had very little down time during the summer and whilst last season he had every right to feel aggrieved at being displaced by Worral, Helander is a different proposition.

I have no doubt Katic will be utilised throughout what is going to be a long hard season including international call ups for which Goldson will not. To that end I think SG will husband certain resources all season to exact the absolute maximum from them.

The manager may well be protecting Katic after a couple of loose performances on the basis of protecting both his confidence and future resale value to the club. As it is clear Katic has the potential to go right to the very top of his profession.

Therefore I am happy to trust the managers judgment on this as that is why they pay him the big bucks.
 
he is responsible for goals against Moscow, Villarreal, Dundee, Celtic and Aberdeen twice for doing exactly what Danger Zone said.
Can you now show us the errors in Katic’s game that caused as many goals?

Agree. I think there were two in Moscow incl the own goal.

And if the Feyenoord player was on his game on Thursday another free header because Connor lost him.
 
If Gerrard can get Goldson to stop thinking he's Becanbauer then he would be very decent. He constantly floats the ball into no man's land, passes direct to opposition, too much pondering on the ball slowing it down. If he had Edmundsons distribution:)
Every game. It's infuriating.
 
he is responsible for goals against Moscow, Villarreal, Dundee, Celtic and Aberdeen twice for doing exactly what Danger Zone said.
Can you now show us the errors in Katic’s game that caused as many goals?

Every player makes mistakes. Fans only seem to remember the errors that are punished though.
 
Goldson is the better all round player of the 2, but I understand why folk think differently because of Katics style of play.

Spot on.

I do hope Gerrard rotates Goldson at some point though as he was run into the ground last season & we now have the strength in depth to allow us to do this
 
Goldson is a 2m defender
Hellander a 3m defender

Katic has the potential to be 10-15m defender
So by that definition you're sort of saying he's a multiple better than both? Whilst I think in Katic we have a good player, I'd say he gets a very easy time on here. Some players are one solitary mistake away from bringing this place into meltdown whereas with Katic the mistakes or poorer performances appear to make him even better.
 
Spot on.

I do hope Gerrard rotates Goldson at some point though as he was run into the ground last season & we now have the strength in depth to allow us to do this

He won't be dropped or rotated that's the thing bar maybe Wednesday and the early Scottish Cup games depending on opposition he will play virtually all of our games this season. He's a Gerrard favourite so he's a stick on to play every week.
 
We have to remember that Katic had very little down time during the summer and whilst last season he had every right to feel aggrieved at being displaced by Worral, Helander is a different proposition.

I have no doubt Katic will be utilised throughout what is going to be a long hard season including international call ups for which Goldson will not. To that end I think SG will husband certain resources all season to exact the absolute maximum from them.

The manager may well be protecting Katic after a couple of loose performances on the basis of protecting both his confidence and future resale value to the club. As it is clear Katic has the potential to go right to the very top of his profession.

Therefore I am happy to trust the managers judgment on this as that is why they pay him the big bucks.

I'm not sure dropping a player who had been playing very well at the start of the season, who then had a shaky game or two from the squad entirely is going to boost his confidence?

He's not a wee boy, he's 22.
 
Every player makes mistakes. Fans only seem to remember the errors that are punished though.

Because that is what loses games.

We have won %^*& all for 7 years, so fans are quite rightly getting a bit nervy when we think the manager may have a blind spot for certain players to the detriment of the team.
In his last spell Walter had the bad habit of fitting Jig into his team, however he could show us the shiny metal cups at the season end to show us he was correct.
SG hasn’t earned that right. We have lost semi finals and crucial league games.
Yes he has improved us a hell of a lot, however on this occasion many of the support think Katic is a better defender than Goldson. Both are good CHs and both have faults.
Last season our form dropped badly when Worrall was brought in for Katic which was a bad mistake by SG and many are frustrated this could happen again.
 
We struggled to keep possession in the second half and invited pressure. Fair enough that can always happen in games, especially against better opponents but we rode our luck - especially at set pieces where Goldson and Helander both lost their men and they had two great chances from it.

I'm not saying Katic is perfect, far from it. But I think the main issue is that Goldson is undroppable no matter how badly he plays.
Overall, in my opinion of course, Goldson is a far more accomplished defender than Katic currently is.
 
he is responsible for goals against Moscow, Villarreal, Dundee, Celtic and Aberdeen twice for doing exactly what Danger Zone said.
Can you now show us the errors in Katic’s game that caused as many goals?
That’s some memory there bud.
Some might think it’s just made up.
Can you tell me how many chances he stopped being created in those or any other games.
Or is just the negatives of the facts that suit you that you keep a diary of?
 
Because that is what loses games.

We have won %^*& all for 7 years, so fans are quite rightly getting a bit nervy when we think the manager may have a blind spot for certain players to the detriment of the team.
In his last spell Walter had the bad habit of fitting Jig into his team, however he could show us the shiny metal cups at the season end to show us he was correct.
SG hasn’t earned that right. We have lost semi finals and crucial league games.
Yes he has improved us a hell of a lot, however on this occasion many of the support think Katic is a better defender than Goldson. Both are good CHs and both have faults.
Last season our form dropped badly when Worrall was brought in for Katic which was a bad mistake by SG and many are frustrated this could happen again.
I’ll tell you what loses Rangers more games than defensive errors.
Mistakes when shooting, more commonly known as bad finishing.
Mistakes when passing or crossing the ball sometimes called not beating the first man.
Strikers not making themselves available for a pass.
All mistakes made by players in every game played.
I think it’s only fair to balance the “loses games” bit with “doesn’t win games” facts as well.
 
Because that is what loses games.

We have won %^*& all for 7 years, so fans are quite rightly getting a bit nervy when we think the manager may have a blind spot for certain players to the detriment of the team.
In his last spell Walter had the bad habit of fitting Jig into his team, however he could show us the shiny metal cups at the season end to show us he was correct.
SG hasn’t earned that right. We have lost semi finals and crucial league games.
Yes he has improved us a hell of a lot, however on this occasion many of the support think Katic is a better defender than Goldson. Both are good CHs and both have faults.
Last season our form dropped badly when Worrall was brought in for Katic which was a bad mistake by SG and many are frustrated this could happen again.

We've kept two clean sheets since Katic has been left out.
 
Because that is what loses games.

We have won %^*& all for 7 years, so fans are quite rightly getting a bit nervy when we think the manager may have a blind spot for certain players to the detriment of the team.
In his last spell Walter had the bad habit of fitting Jig into his team, however he could show us the shiny metal cups at the season end to show us he was correct.
SG hasn’t earned that right. We have lost semi finals and crucial league games.
Yes he has improved us a hell of a lot, however on this occasion many of the support think Katic is a better defender than Goldson. Both are good CHs and both have faults.
Last season our form dropped badly when Worrall was brought in for Katic which was a bad mistake by SG and many are frustrated this could happen again.

I agree that bringing in Worrall for Katic last season was a mistake. Who's to say what exactly what the thinking was behind that move, in hindsight it looks like a mistake, but the important thing for me this season is it's Helander that Katic has been dropped for and not Worrall.

Helander was brought in to be the big player in those games you talked about. He represents Sweden at international level, has won league titles at Malmo, has racked up plenty of experience against top opposition in the champions league & Serie A - it's exactly the type of CV I want at the heart of our defence when it comes to these big games.

I just don't see what there is to get so worked up about with Katic being left out. The defence is functioning well with Helander & Goldson at the back so far, and there's been a notable improvement in Barisic's form as well - whether that's all down to Helander coming into the squad we'll see, but if the trend of clean sheets continues then I'll happily see Katic sit on the bench for the rest of the season. All I care about is winning games. If things start to wobble again then we can debate bringing Katic back into the side, but just don't see why it's an issue at the moment.
 
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