The likely background to the Times story on the Taxman and the Tax bill

[mdingwall]

The likely background to the Times story on the Taxman and the Tax bill

I suspect the Times have got hold of a liquidators report from BDO - these come out every six months.

Two parts.

HMRC sought penalties on the liability for the EBTs.

Then an appeal was upheld by the HMRC's own appeal panel and agreed that there was nothing wrong with Rangers tax returns in the years of the EBTs. Penalties sought were reduced to zero.

HMRC claim for Craig Whyte period was £14m. Got their sums wrong and the amount has been reduced to £9m.




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[Valley Bluenose]

The likely background to the Times story on the Taxman and the Tax bill

I suspect the Times have got hold of a liquidators report from BDO - these come out every six months.

Two parts.

HMRC sought penalties on the liability for the EBTs.

Then an appeal was upheld by the HMRC's own appeal panel and agreed that there was nothing wrong with Rangers tax returns in the years of the EBTs. Penalties sought were reduced to zero.

HMRC claim for Craig Whyte period was £14m. Got their sums wrong and the amount has been reduced to £9m.

I’m sure that info about the reduction was in the last BDO report. That must have come out at least a couple of months ago now.

Surely hasn’t taken them this long to work it up into a story?

I’ve no doubt that is at the root of the story but there must be more to it surely?

 

[Laudrup1]

From CRO...


HMRC have confirmed that they vastly over billed Rangers oldco for EBT tax assessments. The ‘real’ bill would not have been sufficient to see the company sold and then pushed into admin - leading to the club being relegated and all the implications of that. A monumental scandal.

 

[El Bufalo]

The likely background to the Times story on the Taxman and the Tax bill

I suspect the Times have got hold of a liquidators report from BDO - these come out every six months.

Two parts.

HMRC sought penalties on the liability for the EBTs.

Then an appeal was upheld by the HMRC's own appeal panel and agreed that there was nothing wrong with Rangers tax returns in the years of the EBTs. Penalties sought were reduced to zero.

HMRC claim for Craig Whyte period was £14m. Got their sums wrong and the amount has been reduced to £9m.

So there was no "Big Tax Case"?

 

[Liviger1984]

Wow...

 

[Mbear]

Im wondering where does Murray fit into this story though?
Apart from the obvious.
But he didn’t own the company in 2012

 

[thetoptier]

WTAF

the fines and made up nonsense put the bill at something like 94M

 

[david1982]

Im wondering where does Murray fit into this story though?
Apart from the obvious.
But he didn’t own the company in 2012

He did at the time HMRC served the bill for the tax.

 

[Corriebear]

From CRO...


HMRC have confirmed that they vastly over billed Rangers oldco for EBT tax assessments. The ‘real’ bill would not have been sufficient to see the company sold and then pushed into admin - leading to the club being relegated and all the implications of that. A monumental scandal.

A scandal and a national disgrace but surely the only person who would benefit from this is Craig Whyte, as he was the owner at the time.

 

[Bear1873]

Can we sue the fuckers

 

[ekbear]

Im wondering where does Murray fit into this story though?
Apart from the obvious.
But he didn’t own the company in 2012

Going by the CRO tweet he was basically forced (by the bank) to sell to anyone to get what now turns out to be a non existent liability off his empires books.

Instead of being able to get the best price for himself he basically offloaded us to the first shyster to protect himself.

He’s still a prick btw.

 

[Tormusk1872]

WTAF

the fines and made up nonsense put the bill at something like 94M

Some “experts” were quoting North of £150m at one point.

 

[millar2318]

From CRO...


HMRC have confirmed that they vastly over billed Rangers oldco for EBT tax assessments. The ‘real’ bill would not have been sufficient to see the company sold and then pushed into admin - leading to the club being relegated and all the implications of that. A monumental scandal.

What's CRO? Sorry if daft question

 

[mdingwall]

Get one bit wrong - you get the penalties wrong - recipients of EBT money being pursued - Duff and Phelps being sued - could all add to a lot of cash in the creditors pot.

 

[JayDee]

Yeah, there was something about a reduction of the tax bill in a BDO report some time ago. If I remember rightly, BDO also said they were looking for a further reduction. Whether it could be reduced to the point where the old company would not have been put into liquidation, I don't know.

 

[thetoptier]

Some “experts” were quoting North of £150m at one point.

did murray not offer something like 10M to HMRC at the time

is this the basis for his action against them?

 

[Faure there’s not a team]

What's CRO? Sorry if daft question

Copland Road Org.

Prominent on the Rangers twitter scene, once home of the (in)famous CROPod. They rumbled the fuckers pretty early on, essential listening during the 'banter' years.

 

[millar2318]

The whole story still riles me

Only admin in history where there was not a fire sale of players.

Had there been, we would have raised 30 million easily, which would've been enough to pay the actual debt, as the fines were correctly made redundant.

A fantasy from start to finish. We should never have been relegated

 

[Otto Bear]

The likely background to the Times story on the Taxman and the Tax bill

I suspect the Times have got hold of a liquidators report from BDO - these come out every six months.

Two parts.

HMRC sought penalties on the liability for the EBTs.

Then an appeal was upheld by the HMRC's own appeal panel and agreed that there was nothing wrong with Rangers tax returns in the years of the EBTs. Penalties sought were reduced to zero.

HMRC claim for Craig Whyte period was £14m. Got their sums wrong and the amount has been reduced to £9m.

Correct me if I’m wrong but are you not just saying that the penalties weren’t payable but the actual tax liability which was £50m in its own right was still payable (think it totalled to £90m in total)

 

[ekbear]

The whole story still riles me

Only admin in history where there was not a fire sale of players.

Had there been, we would have raised 30 million easily, which would've been enough to pay the actual debt, as the fines were correctly made redundant.

A fantasy from start to finish. We should never have been relegated

The only admin in history where the administrators actually tried to sign a player.

Daniel Cousin.

 

[johnkp]

What's CRO? Sorry if daft question

Copland Road Organisation.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Some turn of events.

 

[Dbear 65]

What's CRO? Sorry if daft question

Copeland Road Organization

 

[thetoptier]

Correct me if I’m wrong but are you not just saying that the penalties weren’t payable but the actual tax liability which was £50m in its own right was still payable (think it totalled to £90m in total)

thought the actual tax liability was 24M?

 

[Lenzie Loyal]

From CRO...

HMRC have confirmed that they vastly over billed Rangers oldco for EBT tax assessments. The ‘real’ bill would not have been sufficient to see the company sold and then pushed into admin - leading to the club being relegated and all the implications of that. A monumental scandal.

If this is true then it only confirms what many of us believed at the time, that HMRC set out to kill Rangers off.

Heads must roll!

 

[The Lone Sniper]

The Rangers Con.

 

[55degreesnorth]

From CRO...


HMRC have confirmed that they vastly over billed Rangers oldco for EBT tax assessments. The ‘real’ bill would not have been sufficient to see the company sold and then pushed into admin - leading to the club being relegated and all the implications of that. A monumental scandal.

If true, then that's huge.

 

[millar2318]

Correct me if I’m wrong but are you not just saying that the penalties weren’t payable but the actual tax liability which was £50m in its own right was still payable (think it totalled to £90m in total)

The amount paid into ebts gross was about 42million from memory, so the tax liability at worst (going on about 45% tax) was no greater than £20million over the 10 or so seasons of ebts

 

[Earl of Leven]

So as always expected there was no Big Tax Case. We could have paid any fines.

 

[spirit_of_93]

The whole story still riles me

Only admin in history where there was not a fire sale of players.

Had there been, we would have raised 30 million easily, which would've been enough to pay the actual debt, as the fines were correctly made redundant.

A fantasy from start to finish. We should never have been relegated

It is scandalous. Needs to be an inquiry into the whole affair to find out who exactly was pulling the strings in the background.

 

[Brian11Laudrup]

So here’s the question

What would genuinely happen if BDO sued HMRC for millions in lost revenue and won

Who gets all of that money and what would they do with the oldco?

 

[Battlefield Bear]

Baron Reid of Cardowan.

 

[millar2318]

So here’s the question

What would genuinely happen if BDO sued HMRC for millions in lost revenue and won

Who gets all of that money and what would they do with the oldco?

Not us that's for sure!

 

[NDC bear forever]

So here’s the question

What would genuinely happen if BDO sued HMRC for millions in lost revenue and won

Who gets all of that money and what would they do with the oldco?

King has said there is a plan to get oldco back. You’d imagine if there was a way it could benefit us he’d be trying his hardest to get it back now

 

[spirit_of_93]

So here’s the question

What would genuinely happen if BDO sued HMRC for millions in lost revenue and won

Who gets all of that money and what would they do with the oldco?

Didn’t Dave King mention a while back about doing something with the oldco?

BDO will take a massive cut in fees from what they ingather, so millions more from hmrc is millions more from them in fees first and foremost.

Apparently a company can come out of liquidation:

Stopping a liquidation once it has started - a permanent sist | Morton Fraser Lawyers

Is it possible to stop a liquidation and return a company to the control of its director? The Insolvency Act can allow the court to permanently sist the liquidation

www.morton-fraser.com

 

[BluebellsPuertoDelCarmen]

So are you saying this is a whole load of basically nothing, Mark? That nothing new has emerged and nothing new will be happening?

 

[Rangers Forever 66]

If this is true. It will be the biggest scandal in world football. It makes me sick at just thinking about it. Surely Rangers will be compensated Big Time .

 

[thetoptier]

Didn’t Dave King mention a while back about doing something with the oldco?

BDO will take a massive cut in fees from what they ingather, so millions more from hmrc is millions more from them in fees first and foremost.

i thought they got a flat rate? they don't get bonuses for winning cases do they?

 

[deedle]

thought the actual tax liability was 24M?

That was the amount the club would have paid in income tax had EBTs not been used.

The club also paid Murray £6m to run the EBT scheme so the net benefit to Rangers over a decade or so was only £18m.

I never understood where some of the figures came from.


The problem is that Lloyds controlled Murray and made all the decisions. However, Murray could have afforded to pay the EBT bill from his own savings.

 

[daven37]

The amount paid into ebts gross was about 42million from memory, so the tax liability at worst (going on about 45% tax) was no greater than £20million over the 10 or so seasons of ebts

Call me paranoid but my belief has always been that someone has been manipulating this.

This does nothing to convince me otherwise.

So here’s the question

What would genuinely happen if BDO sued HMRC for millions in lost revenue and won

Who gets all of that money and what would they do with the oldco?

To be honest mate I wouldn't really care. If HMRC have made a mistake then the least they can do is write off the liability the Oldco had allowing the process to reverse the liquidation of the Oldco to begin if possible.

What would happen to the other old debts the Oldco had?

 

[Otto Bear]

People are getting very mixed up here. There was still a tax liability from the big tax case, however the additional penalties were not due.
Here’s what the BDO report says:
“
A significant proportion of the Big Tax Claim of c£74m related to interest and penalties (c£36m). The penalty element of the claim was c£23.9m and was levied at a particularly high rate. The Joint Liquidators, on behalf of the Company, disputed both the quantum, and the principle, of the penalties applied by HMRC.
Following discussions and meetings with HMRC, we submitted an appeal to the HMRC Penalty Review Consistency Panel (“the Panel”). This set out the reasons why the Joint Liquidators considered the penalties to be incorrectly levied. We are pleased to advise that the Panel has recently agreed with our submission in its entirety, and the element of HMRC’s claim pertaining to penalties has now been withdrawn in full.”

Therefore the tax Murray would have been due to pay was still c£50m

 

[Coda]

Said it at the time, we'd been royally fucked by HMRC and a phantom tax bill.

If there's substance to this, we simply cannot take this lying down.

 

[spirit_of_93]

i thought they got a flat rate? they don't get bonuses for winning cases do they?

I can’t remember would need to check the last BDO statement.

But my understanding is fees tend to be calculated as % of sums ingathered among other costs of administration.

 

[nelster]

Baron Reid of Cardowan.

Dr Death and your corrupt pals, we are looking at you, we havent forgotten who had power in the important places

 

[millar2318]

People are getting very mixed up here. There was still a tax liability from the big tax case, however the additional penalties were not due.
Here’s what the BDO report says:
“
A significant proportion of the Big Tax Claim of c£74m related to interest and penalties (c£36m). The penalty element of the claim was c£23.9m and was levied at a particularly high rate. The Joint Liquidators, on behalf of the Company, disputed both the quantum, and the principle, of the penalties applied by HMRC.
Following discussions and meetings with HMRC, we submitted an appeal to the HMRC Penalty Review Consistency Panel (“the Panel”). This set out the reasons why the Joint Liquidators considered the penalties to be incorrectly levied. We are pleased to advise that the Panel has recently agreed with our submission in its entirety, and the element of HMRC’s claim pertaining to penalties has now been withdrawn in full.”

Therefore the tax Murray would have been due to pay was still c£50m

That's not what the front page of the times says

 

[mdingwall]

 

[Tim Hunter]

The whole story still riles me

Only admin in history where there was not a fire sale of players.

Had there been, we would have raised 30 million easily, which would've been enough to pay the actual debt, as the fines were correctly made redundant.

A fantasy from start to finish. We should never have been relegated

Rangers were not relegated.
They were expelled from football by their fellow SPL clubs.

 

[millar2318]

Rangers were not relegated.
They were expelled from football by their fellow SPL clubs.

You know.what i meant ffs

 

[geoallison]

That was the amount the club would have paid in income tax had EBTs not been used.

The club also paid Murray £6m to run the EBT scheme so the net benefit to Rangers over a decade or so was only £18m.

I never understood where some of the figures came from.


The problem is that Lloyds controlled Murray and made all the decisions. However, Murray could have afforded to pay the EBT bill from his own savings.

Murray was a c unt, still is a c unt, %^*& him.

 

[Gazp]

Still struggle to get my head round it all from day one