David White - where did it go wrong?

DavidSmith said:
Think I had the same childhood as yourself! :)
It didn’t help Davie White in 1968/69 when we lost Colin Stein for a few weeks at a vital part of the season.
I was at that match against Clyde on the 15th March 1969, when he was sent off, and I was also at that disastrous 0-4 cup final defeat :(
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I recall that incident in Clyde game so vividly. Eddie Mulhearn,a rabid beast if ever there was one, kicked Stein all game with no protection from the Ref. I was in the Copland terrace right in front of the incident and Colin Stein just lost it. Ran up and just booted him like a fight in the school playground. I always remember my Old Man saying that was when we lost the Cup Final.

As for the Cup Final, I was gutted that I had to miss it because I was playing in a semi final for my boys team. I remember the disbelief when we heard the score.
 
Jan Wyck said:
I recall that incident in Clyde game so vividly. Eddie Mulhearn,a rabid beast if ever there was one, kicked Stein all game with no protection from the Ref. I was in the Copland terrace right in front of the incident and Colin Stein just lost it. Ran up and just booted him like a fight in the school playground. I always remember my Old Man saying that was when we lost the Cup Final.

As for the Cup Final, I was gutted that I had to miss it because I was playing in a semi final for my boys team. I remember the disbelief when we heard the score.
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I recall the Eddie Mulherron incident and Colin being sent off. However...this was second sending off of the season and should have been 5 match ban. Kelly of the Tims was on SFA then and he said he should be made an example of and given a 6 match ban. He was and the 6th game was v that mhob in cup final. Ferguson played instead. Should have picked McNeil up at corners (he didn't) and the rest is history. The SFA were even corrupt then and bullied by a Shettleston Harrier.
 
Bluebearjim said:
I recall the Eddie Mulherron incident and Colin being sent off. However...this was second sending off of the season and should have been 5 match ban. Kelly of the Tims was on SFA then and he said he should be made an example of and given a 6 match ban. He was and the 6th game was v that mhob in cup final. Ferguson played instead. Should have picked McNeil up at corners (he didn't) and the rest is history. The SFA were even corrupt then and bullied by a Shettleston Harrier.
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Bans were given in weeks back then not games. The ban was given out to ensure that he would miss any potential cup final replay.
 
Jan Wyck said:
I recall that incident in Clyde game so vividly. Eddie Mulhearn,a rabid beast if ever there was one, kicked Stein all game with no protection from the Ref. I was in the Copland terrace right in front of the incident and Colin Stein just lost it. Ran up and just booted him like a fight in the school playground. I always remember my Old Man saying that was when we lost the Cup Final.

As for the Cup Final, I was gutted that I had to miss it because I was playing in a semi final for my boys team. I remember the disbelief when we heard the score.
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Was in the EE with the auld yin that day.
If big Colin had just kicked him a little bit harder he would have lost his boot up Mulhearn's arsehole.
 
wee bud's pit boots said:
Same season. Glasgow Cup semi.

Wee bud got eight goals at the cesspit that season.

Two in the aforementioned league game. A hat trick in the SC semi v Aberdeen and this game also.
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In the league, did we win the home game against the scum?

edit: answered earlier in thread.
I knew I’d read it before.
 
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tazzabear said:
In the league, did we win the home game against the scum?
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1-0 on Ne'erday. John Greig penalty.

It meant that Rangers had won the three previous OF games, leading up to a potential OF, SC final.

The 42 day ban handed out to Colin Stein was as much a disgrace as it was unprecedented. And the President of the SFA was also the chairman of that lot.

A conflict of interests, anyone?
 
ScouseHairline said:
Interested to hear what those who disapproved of Barry Ferguson and Andy Halliday's remarks on Caixinha think regards Willie Waddell openly undermining "the boy David" in the media at the time? Was it seen as disrespectful, or was it welcomed?
Was there a significant portion who believed White needed more time?
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There's a considerable difference between Waddell's comments and Ferguson's given Waddell had been a success and won something as a manager while Ferguson has achieved nothing as a manager or coach.
 
Sam English said:
Was 1969 mate.
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That's even stranger. I was at the game but that makes me 14 at the time. Did we lose 3 1 in both legs?

I remember us beating Athletico Bilbao 4 1 at Ibrox. That was one of my first big european nights. I thought that was 1969.

I'll need to Google.
 
Was DW not assistant to Scot Simon?
I seem to remember being totally perplexed that Symon was sacked when top of the league, and I was never a fan of White after that.
 
LOL 133 said:
That's even stranger. I was at the game but that makes me 14 at the time. Did we lose 3 1 in both legs?

I remember us beating Athletico Bilbao 4 1 at Ibrox. That was one of my first big european nights. I thought that was 1969.

I'll need to Google.
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It was, but it was the spring of the 68/69 season.

Gornick was a few months later at the start of the 69/70 season.
 
I was only young at the time but I recall Davy White was the first "tracksuit manager"
With regards to the Gornik game he had a revolutionary idea to attack away from home when it was normal to defend for your life,back then a 0-0 away from home was a great result,nowadays it's a dangerous one.
He was actually a bit unlucky we were only down 2-1 and Gornik scored at the death to kill us.
I don't blame Davy White at all,the board threw in a young in experienced manager against Celtics best manager and team they have ever had.
IMO the Board were responsible for years of celtic winning everything when they got rid of Scot Symon and sacking Jim Forrest and George McLean,we would have probably one the cup winners cup in 67 with them in the team.
 
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The Dude said:
There's a considerable difference between Waddell's comments and Ferguson's given Waddell had been a success and won something as a manager while Ferguson has achieved nothing as a manager or coach.
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There's also a difference in that White was the manager of the club when Waddell started putting pressure on White with his comments as a sports reporter, Waddell used his legendary status to instill an upsurge of pressure and criticism of White for his own ends. Quite reprehensible behavior from someone who was looked on as a true great of the club.
 
Mason Boyne said:
Bans were given in weeks back then not games. The ban was given out to ensure that he would miss any potential cup final replay.
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A touch before my time but, was Stein’s ban amongst the longest handed out since Woodburn’s sine die?
Did Stein have such a bad disciplinary record?
Three ordering offs doesn’t seem too villainous.
My old man and the uncles always swore this was the scum at work here.
The SFA trying to disprove their assertion that officialdom hated them, that septic won despite referees and linesmen and that Rangers were the establishment club.

Note for the youngsters, this wasn’t last week, it was over fifty years ago!
Yes, they were the same back then and, no doubt, the fifty years before that.
 
Midfield General said:
I was only young at the time but I recall Davy White was the first "tracksuit manager"
With regards to the Gornik game he had a revolutionary idea to attack away from home when it was normal to defend for your life,back then a 0-0 away from home was a great result,nowadays it's a dangerous one.
He was actually a bit unlucky we were only down 2-1 and Gornik scored at the death to kill us.
I don't blame Davy White at all,the board threw in a young in experienced manager against Celtics best manager and team they have ever had.
IMO the Board were responsible for years of celtic winning everything when they got rid of Scot Symon and sacking Jim Forrest and George McLean,we would have probably one the cup winners cup in 67 with them in the team.
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The single most calamitous footballing decision ever made by a Rangers board was getting rid of Forrest after Berwick.
Cost us the league that season and the ECWC as well.
That’s the line my dad and my uncles took all through my childhood years.
 
Johansen said:
There's also a difference in that White was the manager of the club when Waddell started putting pressure on White with his comments as a sports reporter, Waddell used his legendary status to instill an upsurge of pressure and criticism of White for his own ends. Quite reprehensible behavior from someone who was looked on as a true great of the club.
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Wait until you hear how Bill Struth dodged being pensioned off...
 
The Dude said:
Wait until you hear how Bill Struth dodged being pensioned off...
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I've read the Bill Struth biography by Leggat. A power struggle between Struth and Jimmy Bowie. It happens at boardroom level but I found Waddells targeting of White in such a way as very disgraceful indeed in order to manipulate the board of the day
 
wee bud's pit boots said:
It was, but it was the spring of the 68/69 season.

Gornick was a few months later at the start of the 69/70 season.
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I see. That makes sense.

My memory of the Gornik game was the crush to get in. A police horse stood on one of my shoes and ripped the skin off it. Dont know if you remember 'wet look' shoes? After the game I had one.
 
Twosignals said:
Willie Waddell and his Boy David quote put the nail in the coffin and Davy Whites comment about not prepared to, Sit in the Managers Chair. Looking back now I think a comparison could be Warburton, to big a job, with Waddell hovering in the background.
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Harold Davis book talks about Davie White being ahead of his time on the coaching side of the game, but needed a hard man beside him. Davis was his assistant at Dundee and they did well beating Jock Stein's mob in one of the cup finals. Davis also said Waddell played a part in what happened to White at Rangers.

I don't think Warburton was ahead of his time regarding football tactics and coaching.
 
Unfortunately for us they had a great side and one of the best in Europe over a 6 year period.
We also had a very good side at the time but they had the edge in the latter part of the sixties.
Different times as well as Scottish sides usual!y performed well in Europe. From memory the likes of Dunfermline and Kilmarnock reaching the semi final of the old Fairs Cup
 
wee jock said:
I’m not disputing the fact that Celtic were a good side in those days and there’s an ongoing narrative about the brilliance of the much ballyhooed ‘67 Euro cup winning side.
There’s almost however a Parkhead style cover up of their defence of the trophy. It started in August ‘67, just a couple of months after the Lisbon final.
They were knocked out in the first round by a team who were themselves knocked out the second round.
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I believe the yahoos were the first ever defending cup holders to be knocked out in the first round of the competition.
 
Johansen said:
I've read the Bill Struth biography by Leggat. A power struggle between Struth and Jimmy Bowie. It happens at boardroom level but I found Waddells targeting of White in such a way as very disgraceful indeed in order to manipulate the board of the day
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Where is this book available?
 
Alex Venters said:
They were knocked out in the preliminary round. They didn't make the first round!
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Not according to Wikipedia. It was the first round. Why would the winners have been in a preliminary round anyway?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967–68_European_Cup
 
southfork loyal said:
That was Waddell. Had the misfortune to meet him when I was a teenager. He was an obnoxious sh*te.
Fell out with my Dad as The Deedle was his hero and wouln't say a bad word about him.
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You attempt to smear the name of the greatest ever Ranger in terms of his contribution to our history as you didn’t like the way he spoke to you once, yet have ‘loyal’ in your username. Jog on.
 
As in most things in life context is everything. Whilst White was up against Stein and their greatest ever side, that dominance had come almost out of the blue. No more than 5 years previous they were getting their arses handed to them on a plate by Baxter Millar et al, indeed pre Stein they had won the league a mere handful of times in the previous 30 years. The biggest fault lies at the door of a board who lacked any clear vision to counter a clearly shrewd opponent.
 
The Dude said:
There's a considerable difference between Waddell's comments and Ferguson's given Waddell had been a success and won something as a manager while Ferguson has achieved nothing as a manager or coach.
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So class and respect for the position becomes irrelevant so long as you're successful? Waddell won the league with Kilmarnock, so he's allowed to undermine the Rangers manager?

Ferguson won countless trophies, including two trebles and captained us to a European final, but he's not qualified to speak disparagingly of a failed Rangers manager?
 
Johansen said:
White was unlucky in his first season not to win the title but dropping points v Dundee Utd and Morton in the last 6 game run in cost us the league tbh. The team only lost once in the league that season v Aberdeen in the last game at Pittodrie but even if we had won that game we would still have finished second as that mob from the east end had a superior goal average.
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The game we lost was at Ibrox. I was there.
 
senefelder said:
As in most things in life context is everything. Whilst White was up against Stein and their greatest ever side, that dominance had come almost out of the blue. No more than 5 years previous they were getting their arses handed to them on a plate by Baxter Millar et al, indeed pre Stein they had won the league a mere handful of times in the previous 30 years. The biggest fault lies at the door of a board who lacked any clear vision to counter a clearly shrewd opponent.
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Once since the Second World War, before 1966. That was in 1954. Their previous win before that was 1936, which was 31 seasons earlier.

So literally once in 30 years.
 
Jack Flash said:
Was DW not assistant to Scot Simon?
I seem to remember being totally perplexed that Symon was sacked when top of the league, and I was never a fan of White after that.
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The only inside story I've ever known and will ever know regarding Rangers was regarding the dismissal of Scott Symon so not directly related to the O.P, apologies.

It was told to me face to face by a gentleman beyond reproach, who's still with us.

He said it was a total disgrace from the entire Rangers board, Waddell the worst and he actually resigned from the club due to it.
 
academical said:
Once since the Second World War, before 1966. That was in 1954. Their previous win before that was 1936, which was 31 seasons earlier.

So literally once in 30 years.
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They won the League in 1938 as well.
So once in 28 Years.
Basically only three times in the thirty eight years between 1927 and 1965.
 
LucyBlue said:
The only inside story I've ever known and will ever know regarding Rangers was regarding the dismissal of Scott Symon so not directly related to the O.P, apologies.

It was told to me face to face by a gentleman beyond reproach, who's still with us.

He said it was a total disgrace from the entire Rangers board, Waddell the worst and he actually resigned from the club due to it.
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Waddell wasn't at the club when Symon was sacked and reading Symons biography both Symon and Waddell were good friends. It was Willie Allison who had most to do with the sacking
 
In Davie White's two seasons in charge Rangers had finished 2 points and 5 points behind Celtic, and I think we were 2 points ahead of them (though they had two games in hand) when he got fired.
(Hibernian were top the League at that time).

With Waddell in charge,
the next Three seasons saw Rangers finish a cruelly embarrassing 12, 15 and 16 points adrift of Celtic in the Championship.(2 points for a win back then).
We also failed to beat Celtic in 10 of the 11 games we met them with Waddell at the helm.
 
jimbear said:
We played a lot of very good football under David White. I will always look on him as a manager who had very little luck in important games when it really mattered. Missed penalties, goalkeeping blunders, shots kicked off the line; they are all in there and had he had the luck for even one of those breaks to go our way, his time at Ibrox could have been a lot different and a lot longer.
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You are 100% correct bro. We played some of the best football I’ve seen under White. He didn’t have an ounce of luck and made a very bad decision by bringing Baxter back,as Jim was no longer slim and undermined him.
Sorensen, Johansen Provan/Mathieson, Greig, McKinnon and Smith, Henderson, Penman, Ferguson/Stein Johnston and Persson were a great side to watch.
 
Johansen said:
Waddell wasn't at the club when Symon was sacked and reading Symons biography both Symon and Waddell were good friends. It was Willie Allison who had most to do with the sacking
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Waddell was at the club, official capacity or no.

I'm often facetious on here but not regarding this.

I spoke to the man himself and he's a Scottish football legend.

It broke his heart to leave but he was loyal to Scot.
 
senefelder said:
As in most things in life context is everything. Whilst White was up against Stein and their greatest ever side, that dominance had come almost out of the blue. No more than 5 years previous they were getting their arses handed to them on a plate by Baxter Millar et al, indeed pre Stein they had won the league a mere handful of times in the previous 30 years. The biggest fault lies at the door of a board who lacked any clear vision to counter a clearly shrewd opponent.
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Stein was a modern manager who grasped the changes that the game in the sixties was undergoing.
Scott Symon although still, a figure of some authority, was himself a man for whom the modern game at the top level had passed by, notwithstanding he had the luxury of living in a nation still producing an abundance of high-quality players for the era and where from within, a shrewd manager could actually put together a side capable of winning Europe's top prizes.

Stein would manage to do this, because he understood the demands of an emerging tactical sport and was able to utilise and organise the riches at his doorstep.
Scot Symon had the riches but not the wit to make them winners.

I have often said that in the period that The Filth won in Europe, Rangers actually had better individual players at their disposal.
I firmly believe that had Stein taken over at Ibrox in 1964 and kept Baxter, he wouldn't have won just a solitary European Cup.

As for Davie White, he might have been better equipped for the modern game than Scot, but the dominance that Stein was now exerting in Scottish football made his job impossible given the impatience inside the Ibrox Boardroom which made the pressure to overcome Stein so much more difficult.
 
Midfield General said:
I was only young at the time but I recall Davy White was the first "tracksuit manager"
With regards to the Gornik game he had a revolutionary idea to attack away from home when it was normal to defend for your life,back then a 0-0 away from home was a great result,nowadays it's a dangerous one.
He was actually a bit unlucky we were only down 2-1 and Gornik scored at the death to kill us.
I don't blame Davy White at all,the board threw in a young in experienced manager against Celtics best manager and team they have ever had.
IMO the Board were responsible for years of celtic winning everything when they got rid of Scot Symon and sacking Jim Forrest and George McLean,we would have probably one the cup winners cup in 67 with them in the team.
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I couldn't agree more mate. The scum had a great team but the Rangers teams of 1965 to 1969 ran them desperately close to almost everything they won and a mixture of bad luck and bad management (mostly in the director's box) was responsible for us not winning most of those trophies.

I've always felt sorry for Davie White as he was probably the right man at the wrong time, given he had little experience in management (one season at Clyde, where he did remarkably well to be fair, taking them to third behind us and them in the season we both reached European finals) and he was thrown in against Stein at the height of his powers. The Rangers Board panicked so many times, especially after Berwick and Lisbon, when cool heads could have ridden us through the storm to a much better place than we eventually went.

Even at that White should still have won the league in 1968, and who could have foreseen the defensive cock-ups from experienced defenders that meant a 0-4 tanking in the 1969 Scottish Cup Final (we were favourites)? The Fairs Cup might have been won that year too but we were in such a depression after the SCF that the confidence had gone and we missed loads of chances in the SF, especially at Ibrox. He went on to manage Dundee and they had some good teams and results in the early 70s under him, culminating in the League Cup win of 1973/74, appropriately against the scum.

I also agree with others on Waddell's "Boy David" article. There was absolutely no need for it. Davie White was a thoroughly nice man who deserved so much better and I'm pleased he was a regular at Ibrox till the end of his days.
 
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Renoranger said:
I believe the yahoos were the first ever defending cup holders to be knocked out in the first round of the competition.
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At the time (and it may still stand) they held the European Cup for the shortest time before being knocked out the following season.
 
Like a number of posters, I was also at the Gornik game. The atmosphere at the start of the game was great and was helped by an early goal from Jim Baxter. However after they equalised, we lost control of the game and the atmosphere during and at the end of the game was toxic.

IMO Davie White was a man before his time at Ibrox : a modern coach sandwiched between Scot Symon and Willie Waddell. Some great games under Davie White but also a few terrible results including the loss to Celtic in the Cup Final, the last game loss against Aberdeen and even the defeat by Newcastle.

The perception, probably fostered by Waddell, was that discipline at the club was not what it had been during the days of Symon and particularly Bill Struth. The “heinous” crime of Baxter and Willie Henderson growing moustaches and wearing their shirts outside their shorts was not thought to be the Rangers way by Waddell. Aforesaid moustaches disappeared when Waddell became manager. The moniker Boy attached by Waddell to White was a cheap shot. Maybe if the Board had not panicked into sacking Symon after a draw against Dunfermline, Davie White might have grown into the manager role whenever Symon retired.
 
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From what I've been told by someone totally honorable within the club...

Scot Symon was a great manager, the players loved him and he wasn't old-fashioned in the least - he was actually quite innovative for the time and he won several league titles.

Stein started giving him a challenge and Symon went toe to toe with him. The difference being, Stein was given the freedom to do what he liked at that point (as the Celtic board simply wanted to win at all costs) and Symon was restricted by ridiculous Rangers Board decisions and restraints. He made his frustration clear to them.

The flukey loss to Berwick gave the board the excuse to get rid of a good man and manager, as well as several great players.

It was a huge mistake in hindsight.
 
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