Club 1872 statement

supersonic said:
It's not that they cant afford it. Buying off King doesnt put new money into the club. Why would DP and co give King £13m when that's nearly half the funding gap required to get us through to end of next season?
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Yep, I agree.

I can't see any other reason than Dave King wanting his money out of the club.

Particularly as he'll be selling at a loss.
 
Gonna be honest here, pretty anxious that blazer chasers will be breaking cover en masse to try and get on the C1872 board and by extension have a say in running our club. That is a scenario fraught with all sorts of sh1te we just don't need.
 
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If Rangers are to have fan ownership then whatever group that is needs an influential and astute businessperson at the helm.

For instance let's say C1872 became majority shareholder, then they would need someone at the forefront to strike a balance between supporter influence and corporate governance.

Could somebody like Paul Murray be that man? Or maybe somebody who is stepping down from a CEO job in Edinburgh soon?
 
Now is the time to get our fan groups sorted and harmonised. And we’ve got great opportunity and vehicle for that. Might not be agreeable to all, but all egos and infighting should be put aside now.

Dave King has done his bit. He was never going to be there forever, but he’ll never be gone. He’s always been there and invested in Rangers. I have no doubt if we need him again he will step up.

Dave King’s contribution to our recovery is incredible. I’m not even convinced we could be where we are now without him. He’s a huge fan and has put up his own money for the club.

I actually like his vision for what it’s worth. And if they’re can raise £13m in time for the purchase then the group have got some ability to raise significant capital. Done right this could open many, many doors.
 
A little bit mixed reaction for me.

Good - increased supporter shareholding

Bad (or at least less good) - money goes to D King not the club when the club is projecting needing £22M of investment in the next couple of years. If Club 1872 got £13M of new shares they'd be a bigger shareholding than King anyway so even if he sold to a non-supporter the fans would still be able to block any malign influence. I don't resent King getting most of his money back but I'm unconvinced this is the best way in terms of benefitting the club

Bad - Not having King involved is a little sad on a sentimental level

Good - it gives a tangible reason for fans to invest in Club 1872. Best guess this is why they've gone down this road rather, as there is a firm target with a deadline to raise £x by y date

Bad - Club 1872 is pretty poor at communication with members (really website down when this is announced????), isn't particularly accountable and by its nature is an unwieldy decision maker. I don't mean to be too critical but "well-meaning amateurs" is the somewhat harsh phrase that always springs to mind. It seems there is a core board who struggle to cope with all the demands and a number of folk who want to get elected but don't then want to contribute. Nobody actually provides leadership in the organisation. As the single biggest shareholder in the club that won't cut it. Also, the goal seems to be to own shares but then not to use that shareholding to influence the club's direction - just vote at the agm and hold a big red button marked "veto" for use as an ineffectual last resort in the event of a spiv takeover

Good - this is an ideal opportunity to reinvigorate Club 1872 with fresh membership and hopefully a better functioning board who take a more proactive involvement in the club.

To make this work the board of Club 1872 needs to be a proper independent board with clear roles and responsibilities elected by the membership in a more transparent process. I nominate Mr D King of South Africa as chair:)
 
100% convinced club 1872 have the best interest of the club at heart but has it got right people to take on the responsibility of being the majority shareholder of the club,
Excuse my ignorance of club 1872 structure I’m not meaning to actually offend anyone.
 
I think the long term goal for the club, supporters and major shareholders is and should be for the club to be self-sufficient, protected and have wealthy business people on the board who are able to contribute when needed.

Club1872 have 3 years to raise £13 million which will ensure our club is protected from leaches like Ashley taking control and robbing us blind. It will also allow for wealthy business people an opportunity to still hold significant shareholdings within the club.

I don't want Club1872 to run the club and would like someone who doesnt have a fans mindset to run the club however I will 100% backing Club1872 and will pay the £650 to be part of the 20,000 lifelong members of owning our club.

Good news imo aslong as we have business minded people on the board whilst giving the fans a voice.
 
SuperGers07 said:
It’s far from amazing
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It's a positive step and prevents leaches like Ashley from coming into the fold again. While it's not some rich benefactor throwing his family fortune at us, it's a movement that holds the interest of the Rangers support at its forefront. That is such a positive and an amazing thing - especially if you consider where we were 10 years ago.

supersonic said:
Is it really? Who even runs c1872 and thus who will represent us at board level?
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I'd imagine it will be a similar set-up to the Swansea Supporters' Trust who own around 20% of their club.

Club 1872 is run by a board of volunteers that I, and other members, voted on. I'd imagine in the coming months more will become clear about representation at board level.
 
I'm not getting where this means fan ownership.
It would make C1872 the biggest shareholder in RIFC, it doesn't give them 50+1% of shares.

To me it means that fans will have the power to prevent another Ashley/Green/ Whyte situation but not own the club.
 
CoplandKeklord said:
Gonna be honest here, pretty anxious that blazer chasers will be breaking cover en masse to try and get on the C1873 board and by extension have a say in running our club. That is a scenario fraught with all sorts of sh1te we just don't need.
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Easily remedied by C1872 electing an individual annually to the position. If that person is doing well, they can be re-elected. If they are a dick, off they pop.
 
LLLG said:
I don’t have an issue with his family not committing to us? I have an issue with club 1872 getting first dibs though
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Why .....they are comprised of fans ...why wouldn't you want fans to have a major say in the running of the club ?
 
I personally pay 5 pound a month to club 1872 but like most it’s a small enough amount I don’t even think about it . If they wanted me to increase it to a level that would require them to buy shares at this level they would seriously need to increase their structure and output or I wouldn’t consider it
 
I’d be far more worried if Dave King was making his shares available to all and sundry on the open market, so to speak, rather than Club1872 if I’m honest.

That said, I think it highly unlikely they will reach the required figure.
 
DaveL said:
I don't think Club 1872 will manage it.
Dave King is giving them the chance as it may be the only chance for it to happen before new investors come in but I'm not sure they'll be able to fund it or fund any future share issues without the holding being diluted.
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It is a huge ask to expect 20,000 fans to pay £650 to buy shares from King, the majority would rather spend money that can be invested on the pitch. Some fans may feel strongly enough to do so but nowhere near that many.

Over the next few years I would rather much rather the expertise on the board were allowed to run the club the way they know best.
 
Just look at the thread on here recently that got chopped because of the rumours of a company car for certain people and the ridiculous nature and see where we are going under a fan ownership model.

club 1872 is a good idea. I just don’t have the confidence in the people at the top unfortunately. I haven’t received any information from them for months. All very amateurish announcement I think.
 
My initial reaction is that this is not welcome news being released at a time we were flying high . Timing possibly due to the turmoil across the city ?

Club 1872 have done nothing to make your average fan feel like they could run a Menaj without internal bickering .

I’ll await what the heart & hand lads make of it particularly Andy McGowan before I comment any further .
 
ICM said:
A lot of undue panicking on this news shows the scar tissue of recent years but also a disappointing desire for an everpresent sugar daddy at the helm of the club.

Its bold and ambitious but any shares not bought by C1872 (which there will be IMO) will hopefully be bought up by supporter investors, already at the table.

Dave King has earned the right to take this course of action, let's see what happens.
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Nothing to do with a sugar daddy which seems to be a common go to jibe aimed at anyone who is hesitant at the idea of fan ownership.

There are too many egos and downright pettiness amongst our support who can't agree on anything.

I would prefer this shareholding to be split between Douglas Park and the other businessmen who currently have shareholdings as said by another poster.

Unless am missing something.
 
Guide if it is at all helpful. I'm not a corporate lawyer but have some knowledge of this:

Shareholdings - based on the statement in November 19 on Companies House (which is out of date due further shares being alloted since then but the breakdown is not on CH for the present day):
Dave King currently holds 66,672,893 out of 260,631,982 shares in RIFC Plc (25.6%)
C1872 currently holds 15,027,838 out of 260,631,982 shares in RIFC Plc (5.8%)
*these numbers are likely not accurate as of today but they're close enough for this purpose*

DK is proposing to sell to C1872 at 23.7p per share which takes into account his professional fees incurred acquiring the shares as his base cost. It seems that if the money is raised by December next year they can be bought for 20p per share (and so at a loss for DK).

C1872 would be the biggest (but not majority) shareholder. Shareholders are entitled to vote on resolutions at company meetings (and 25%+ is a big vote) and are entitled to (in line with the value of their shareholding) the company's assets on dissolution if the company was ever dissolved. If it needs to be said, the shareholders approve by a vote who sits on the board of directors and the board are entitled to appoint the staff, players etc. The directors run the company as managers, who appoint staff (i.e. the manager - so no, C1872 wouldn't be voting on the football manager at the club although they could seek to appoint board members who do).

The Companies Act have a number of requirements which can be blocked by a certain percentage of the shareholders. Holding over 25% is significant because you need a 75%+1 vote margin to:
- Change the name of the company
- Amend the Articles of Association (Can be very important - these are the rules which explain how the company must be run including how votes are taken, decisions made, money handled etc.)
- Bypass "pre-emption" rights (if a shareholder has a pre-emption right then when new shares are issued they are entitled to buy as many shares as appropriate to keep their shareholding at the same percentage level. This right can be bypassed if 75%+1 pass a special resolution at a shareholders meeting. This effectively means C1872 could never have their shareholding watered down against their will).
- Have the Company wound up voluntarily (rather than forced to by a creditor via court order).

So C1872 having more than 25% of the shareholding would be significant because they could block any of the above actions even if every other shareholder wanted it to go through. If I remember it correctly, this level of shareholding has always been a pipe dream for C1872.

The other point which seems to arise is to ask why not just funnel £13+ million into the club rather than pay Dave King?

The answers
- I've not done the maths but creating that many shares would dilute everyone else's shareholding significantly and I'm not sure the other new shareholders would be into it. Would it even be enough to get to 25%+1 share?
- Dave King doesn't know what his family and descendants forevermore will do with those shares. Could be sold to anyone and that's a significant share chunk. He also may appreciate getting some more of his cash back.

That is not a full analysis of the implications but hopefully helpful for some bears. You of course can have your view about the risks of C1872 having that much of a shareholding but they wouldn't fully own the club, just over a quarter. It seems they want the C1872 members to be in charge of exercising the votes that the shareholding would bring, so there shouldn't be a concentration of unlimited power in one or a select few fans, but we probably need to know more about how they propose to run it.
 
My sense is that it will only work with a figurehead at the helm to guide and represent. Paul Murray or Alistair Johnston are the sort of folks that have the appropriate experience. If it becomes a one share one vote democracy then I fear it may become a recipe for indecisive management and potentially something that could be exploited by those wishing harm on the club.

Much thought is needed on the structure and mechanics. Hopefully Club 1872 will present convincing proposals quickly.
 
two2tango said:
Ye why not invest in new shares? Seems daft idea to me?
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We cant do that endlessly though can we, this idea that every time we buy shares it has to be through a share issue is not realistic IMO.

We need to buy whatever shares we can, like this, like the Ashley shares AND also share issues.
 
Where did this come from?!

Initial reaction is gutted to see King leave and delighted with fan ownership. However we need a good mix of strong other investors to continue to be there for us when required as well
 
It is a sad indictment on C1872 that an outcome that a huge number on here fought for for years is met with worry from those self same people. A number of the people most vocally opposed to this on here are ex RST punters who spent a huge amount of time trying to get this outcome. The fact they are worried about it now tells a tale.


C1872 have a fantastic chance to do something tremendous for the club and the support and could put themselves in a position to safeguard the club for the next generations. As it stands, the overwhelming majority of people talking about it are doing so from a position of feeling they are not capable of doing it well.
 
A step in the right direction, I think, although it’s difficult to be completely comfortable with Dave King not being involved with the club at all.

We will get out of this what we put in to it, the more the support buys in to this then the better it will be for everyone.
 
kingstonbear said:
If that’s true then don’t they have to offer to buy all shares at the same price of 20p?
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I don’t know to be honest mate.

If they have to offer at 20p per share and Dave King thinks his shareholding is worth more than 50p per share, I doubt anyone else would consider selling anyway.

I’m sure they’ll have considered that point. Key thing is more than 25% of the shares are in fan ownership.
 
sherbrook_loyal said:
I’d be far, far more comfortable if the likes of Douglas Park and the other businessmen who currently have shareholdings were buying King’s shares.

I fear this will be an absolute disaster.

I have very little confidence in Club 1872 being able to effectively run our club – and I say that as a long-term contributor.
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My thoughts also
 
Deek said:
Not sure how I feel about this, given that our fan base often disagree on the most trivial of matters.
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This is the biggest issue for myself and always has been regarding the notion of “fan ownership”. The day to day practicalities have the potential to get very messy. Does every decision those from Club1872 who are on the club board need to be voted on by Club1872 members?

I can only imagine the wailing and screaming on here when things like the brand of new TVs installed in the concourses are not to everyone’s liking, the food offering changes and some folk yearn for a luke warm pie etc etc.

How is it decided who from club 1872 gets these much coveted board seats? What skills, education and experience will be a prerequisite? Will they be paid a salary? Or will it be voluntary with expenses reimbursed? Running an organisation with a turnover of 10s of £millions needs A LOT of skills and experience in various fields. Like it or not, the vast vast majority of us would more than likely make an a*se of it. I include myself in that.

Watch now for the manoeuvring, elbows flying and fall outs as folk try to establish themselves as a candidate for a board seat.

Watch for the fights and name calling when those who feel they were ideal for the roles don’t get them and then they see the bumper salary awarded to those who are successful.

Apologies for the overly negative post. Significant fan influence, when channelled in the right way, is obviously a positive in the running of a football club. This though has sh*t show written all over it.
 
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ClubFootZzZ said:
I've not really digested this entirely but my initial reaction is cautiously positive in the sense that I think supporters having the largest amount of shares in the club is important for our future. We've all seen the issues that rogue shareholders can have on the club, so if a good 25-40% of shares are in a supporters organisations hands I see this as a strong bulwark against any hostile takeover in the future.

I understand peoples concerns regarding Club 1872's ability to run the club well, and it will be interesting to see if the purchase of these shares leads to greater boardroom representation for them. I don't think this purchase would mean that they would be in a position to completely takeover the running of the club though, and I think it's clear our future lies in a hybrid of model of a strong amount of fan shareholdings with enough leftover to attract investment from elsewhere, and I'd suspect the practice of these individual investors being elected to the board will continue.

In any case it's a pretty significant event in our clubs history if most of these shares are eventually bought up by Club 1872, and it is hopefully an important stepping stone in the maturation of our organisation as a fan base. It's clear fan ownership is going to play a huge part in our future, regardless of the extent to which that is the case, and so hopefully a fan group proving it is possible to own this many shares in the club if we organise correctly is a positive step.

And lastly, fair play to Dave King. If this is the end of his involvement in the club, what a success it's been. Took us from a shell of a club to where we are now, and appears to be walking away from it by attempting to secure his legacy by leaving his shares in the hands of the supporters - top man.
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No matter what happens I’m pretty sure after we win the league Dave king and maybe the rest of the 3 bears will be recognised by the club perhaps a statue
 
I've always been in favour of fan ownership although this falls somewhat short of outright control. Were I still in Scotland then I would be far more active with C1872.

What Dave King is trying to do is to 'future proof' the club. He knows that once he is gone then his family and heirs might be tempted to sell to the highest bidder no matter how disreputable that person might be.

It's up to us to step up now and assure that never again can a bunch of spivs take control. There are plenty of Bears with great business experience and great credentials and who can take and active role going forward.
 
There is some understanding to do here.

Firstly, at 25% "we" might be the biggest single shareholder, "we" would not be the majority shareholder.

Secondly I'd like to understand, if I for example chipped in £10k do I get Rangers shares that are in trust with Club1872? or am I buying a share of Club1872 who own the shares.

Thirdly, normally when you buy shares you are able to sell them. I take it this money is a write off and the "investor" has no value?

Fourthly, what is the constitution and shareholder agreement etc of Club1872? When I looked a couple of years ago I saw no evidence of people of sufficient business acumen and Commercial knowledge to sit on the board of an organisation like Rangers.

Fifthly, this is a difficult thing to do. Assume for the moment all the share/trust issues are actually simple and Club72 as a major shareholder appoint one (probably non-exec) director. That Director will not be in a position to trot back to the members and discuss the various day to day issues and challenges faced by the club, or indeed the confidential plans. How will folk react when an announcement of significance is made that the "rep" has known of for some time.


Interesting times
 
android said:
It sounds as if he’s going to sell up no matter what.

Selling to C1872 guarantees they go in to safe hands. However, I don’t think King would sell to anyone who didn’t have the club’s interests at heart.

I think it would be preferable if C1872, if they were raising £13mil, put the cash in as ‘new’ money. However, they might not get that chance.
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As you say, the sale does guarantee that the shares go into safe hands. I would trust Club 1872 to look after the welfare of our club before I would trust somebody like David Murray.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
Easily remedied by C1872 electing an individual annually to the position. If that person is doing well, they can be re-elected. If they are a dick, off they pop.
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Thats my thoughts too.....there needs to be a democratic vote on who should sit on the Board and he or she should act in accordance with the wishes of the 1872 membership
 
Birkenshaw Bear said:
Terrible idea.

Massive club like Rangers ran by committee or dictatorship is never a good idea.

Let the multi millionaire Rangers supporters run our club and let’s be done with this fan ownership nonsense.
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Most of the top clubs in Europe are fan owned. It's a proven successful model.

Why couldn't it work at Rangers? Would be interested to hear the arguments against, other than the cliche "our fanbase is heavily divided" point.
 
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