Club 1872 statement

Would rather shares were bought from the club to be honest, and I say that as a member of Club 1872.

However it is interesting that both King & Club 1872 can participate in future share issues.

King may put the money back in.
 
There are obvious positives in Club 1872 buying all the shares but essentially fans buying shares for King rather than direct investment in the club.

Largest shareholder would then be a slow moving organisation with limited ability to further invest in the club or provide loans for equity. Thats before we get into the infighting palaver we see on a regular basis between groups and inside each group.

Sadly, as a member, I concur! I see Club 1872 as a fan based power block unrestricted by Boardroom sensibilities, in its ability to speak for and on behalf of the fans. I don’t see it’s structure or personal make up as a boost to the clubs board and decision making ability.

There is a lot in what King says in the statement that makes perfect sense. However we as a Club are still at a point of investment and I don’t imagine buyers are falling over themselves to take out any current key stake holders.

Another disappointment is that C1872 have not chosen to give this information to members along with their thoughts as to how this will work both financially and structurally.
 
I stopped contributing to C1872 at the time it seemed every other week there was a statement about board members resigning etc.

I need clear indication that these issues are resolved & there is a cohesive and United board in place before I re-start my contributions again.
 
Dave King has every right to cash out. The man has sunk a fortune into us and we owe him so much.

I'm sure this was always the plan, wasn't it? He said at the very beginning that he wanted significant fan representation and the fans will be able to stop the kind of nonsense that went in under the spivs.

That being said, club 1872 needs reformed. It's incredible that their website is down right now. I've been paying subs for years and as others have said, have heard nothing from them from ages. I don't even know who's in charge or whether we have a seat on the board. My preference would be for businessmen to run the club with a significant voice in the board.
 
Sadly, as a member, I concur! I see Club 1872 as a fan based power block unrestricted by Boardroom sensibilities, in its ability to speak for and on behalf of the fans. I don’t see it’s structure or personal make up as a boost to the clubs board and decision making ability.

There is a lot in what King says in the statement that makes perfect sense. However we as a Club are still at a point of investment and I don’t imagine buyers are falling over themselves to take out any current key stake holders.

Another disappointment is that C1872 have not chosen to give this information to members along with their thoughts as to how this will work both financially and structurally.

I doubt that they are that far along in their thinking. Also, and I don't really know who the people running C1872 are (shame on me as a member), they probably don't have expertise in this kind of transaction and the structural changes that will be needed to make it work.
 
Potentially a good thing, but its going to take a massive change in mindset from supporters.

I was a member of the Rangers Supporters Trust. I was a board member of my local team's supporters trust for over 5 years, during which time I was involved in various things (I ran the man of the match award at home games, ran the 50/50 cash draw, took part in various initiatives and represented the trust in regular meetings with club owners and the club board during a period of potentially massive change). I'm a believer in fan ownership within football. Doesnt mean that there's a single model that could be applied across every club. Full ownership may be right for some clubs but others may benefit from a blended approach where the fans act as majority shareholders and work with other investors. Its about finding the right model for each club. The notion that fans would be involved in decision making needs put to bed - in all cases of supporter ownership the club is still run by a professional board of directors. It is certainly a way for fans to have a stronger voice within a club and it can protect teams from the actions of vultures and spivs who would run the club for their own personal gain.

At the biggest clubs you have fan elected presidents who pursue a manifesto that fans vote on. The club president sets the overall tone and direction at the club. The professional board run the club's day to day business and take strategic business decisions. Lower down in scale you'll see some clubs with fans sitting on the board of directors. Although not fan owned, my local side has a fan director who represents fan interests and who is elected by the trust membership. Once appointed they assume all of the fiduciary duties and responsibilities of any other club director. I've seen first hand occasions where our fan appointed director had to declare conflicts of interests, excuse himself from trust business or maintain confidentiality rather than fully disclosing things to the rest of the supporters trust board. Nobody takes these roles on lightly and it requires that trust members, trust board members and club board members approach things in a professional way. The problems can be the division that creates between the supporters who want to know everything and the supporters trust/fan reps at club board level who can't disclose everything. Getting the balance right at my other club's level can mean a highly engaged support with professional skills and experience from outside of football that smaller clubs can find invaluable

At a club like Rangers the only model that would have a chance of working would be a club president and potentially 1 or 2 fan-appointed directors on the club professional board. Those fan appointed board members would need to work on the basis that they were club directors first and foremost. Fans might put them in the boardroom but a degree of confidentiality and professionalism would be required. Could the Rangers support handle having some fans in the know by virtue of their role on the club or supporters trust board and others kept in the dark? It's a common model in continental Europe and South America but an alien concept to British football fans.

Even if it's implemented, there are pitfalls to consider going forward. The benefits of significant fan ownership are in the protection that it gives clubs. No longer can anybody come along and put money into a club for a controlling interest. Fan ownership at Rangers may well have prevented Charles Green and the absolute mess that followed. Unfortunately it can also limit a club's ability to raise funds by issuing new shares. If the supporter ownership vehicle wanted to maintain that majority shareholding then it would need to be able to raise money from fans in order to buy shares. You wouldn't see debt for equity deals quite so often and the club may need to repay the money it borrows from friendly investors.

All of that said? I'd absolutely love to see Rangers majority fan owned. In the fullness of time it may even be possible to be a fully fan owned club, but that would be decades down the line. Right now it would be really great to see a majority shareholding in the hands of a supporter body. It would give a degree of certainty to a support that had to live in limbo from the latter years of the David Murray era through the shambles of Whyte, Green and the Easedales. There's a massive job ahead of Club 1872 if this is going to be a reality. Financing the deal over the next 3 years is no small challenge and the current environment within British football in general, and Rangers fans in particular, is highly sceptical towards fan ownership. Get it right and it could well be an absolutely huge step forward for the club.
 
First things first and Club 1872 needs to get its house in order and be very vocal about the positives this would bring.

No room for egos / blazer chasing etc
It’s about Safeguarding the future of our club for our kids and their kids and so on.
 
Some of the stuff I’m already seeing on Twitter from fans is quite something. Shouting what they would like (safe standing etc.), has disaster written all over it if this isn’t managed correctly.

Who is in actual charge of C1872? Are they reliable business folk?

Investing £13 million pounds isn’t just a quick transaction and must be done in a compliant and professional manner.

I like the idea but there needs to be full correspondence with C1872 other just give us your money and we will do the rest.
 
Sadly, as a member, I concur! I see Club 1872 as a fan based power block unrestricted by Boardroom sensibilities, in its ability to speak for and on behalf of the fans. I don’t see it’s structure or personal make up as a boost to the clubs board and decision making ability.

There is a lot in what King says in the statement that makes perfect sense. However we as a Club are still at a point of investment and I don’t imagine buyers are falling over themselves to take out any current key stake holders.

Another disappointment is that C1872 have not chosen to give this information to members along with their thoughts as to how this will work both financially and structurally.

Got to agree with the final paragraph here. I think this therefore means that the money given by the members to C1872 will not be used towards any purchase of King's shares.
 
Got to agree with the final paragraph here. I think this therefore means that the money given by the members to C1872 will not be used towards any purchase of King's shares.

If C1872 are going to be asking the support for £13 million then the first thing they will have to provide is a prospectus. I wonder if they are cognisant of how much work there is going to be before any such prospectus can be issued?
 
It’s patently evident. This is about stopping a repeat of 2012. We cannot rely on millionaires to constantly babysit our club. This isn’t about overall fan ownership, this is about 25%, having a veto and ensuring we never suffer the shite we have for the last 10 years.

How can anyone not see this. It’s beyond me.

Having a veto doesn't stop any issues.

What about future investment? Purchasing the shares from Dave King doesn't put more money in to the club and unforgettable just now, money is what we require.
 
I stopped contributing to C1872 at the time it seemed every other week there was a statement about board members resigning etc.

I need clear indication that these issues are resolved & there is a cohesive and United board in place before I re-start my contributions again.
This.

Would be interested to see a poll on where all are with C1872.
 
Assuming the Investor section of the website is up to date, New Oasis (King) currently owns 66,672,893 shares (20.37%). Club 1872 currently own 16,202,838 (4.95%). There are 327,241,872 shares in issue. So Club 1872 could get to just over 25%.

Whilst I kind of understand the view that Club 1872 has been the subject of infighting / maybe a lack of clarity, is now not the time for us as a support to come together and, if we aren’t happy about the governance of Club 1872, to fix it? I think it is easy to equate Club 1872 to particular board members etc. But those board members will come and go. Sometimes you’ll like directors A, B and C, other times I’ll like directors D, E and E. But nothing is forever. If a director isn’t doing a good job then they can be voted out (or at least not re-elected). Should we not be focusing on making Club 1872 the organisation we want it to be rather than what it might have been in the past?
 
What do club 1872 need to achieve this project,It can’t be a complete surprise they must have had a nods up from King and internal discussions about raising money and engaging a larger section of fans.
 
I stopped contributing to C1872 at the time it seemed every other week there was a statement about board members resigning etc.

I need clear indication that these issues are resolved & there is a cohesive and United board in place before I re-start my contributions again.
Me too, I got fed up with the constant bitching at each other. That Laura Fawkes fell out with someone and that was enough for me as it wasn’t the first time they had infighting. Started my payments shortly after they were set up with the promise of buying shares slowly and contributing to the youth system, which was needing rebuilt. As people have said they‘ve been off the radar the last few years. King seems a bit too hasty to sell his shares thats what concerns me. I’m all for fan involvement but club1872 have shown they are a bit amateurish in the past, if there is a clear plan going forward and someone more business minded involved then fair enough I’ll start my payments again.
 
This has to be a sticky surely. I agree with many others. There has to be a clear structure within Club 1872 with a clear process around operation and a democratically elected leader before many fans would invest in that.

if club1872 can outline details around that, count me in.
 
Having a veto doesn't stop any issues.

What about future investment? Purchasing the shares from Dave King doesn't put more money in to the club and unforgettable just now, money is what we require.
So who else buys Kings shares? Park, Bennett et al? That means their cash has gone to King and isn’t available to the Club either.
 
In principle this is a good development. King is entitled to sell his shareholding in whatever fashion he chooses, for whatever price he gets. Giving the fans group ‘first dibs’ on getting the cash together and and selling it only to recover his costs is a positive.

But if we’re honest, and I say this as a member, C1872 is dysfunctional. We’re months now from the resignations of board members, which were rumoured to leave the board not at quorum, yet members have heard nothing....now this. I don’t personally mistrust the people involved, but it’s clear it is not operating as we would all want it to.

Need to digest and to receive more details.
 
I’ve been a member of Club 1872 from the start giving money every month for shares in the Club this announcement is what every Ranger,s supporter should welcome and I would urge every supporter with the means to join Club 1872 and become part of the biggest shareholder in our Great club.I can’t understand some of the comments on here but I suppose that’s FF for you, but I would say that I would go along with Dave King on what he is saying than quite a lot of people on here.
 
So who else buys Kings shares? Park, Bennett et al? That means their cash has gone to King and isn’t available to the Club either.

Who knows but the existing guys are putting substantial money in to the club. The recent accounts show the level of funding required as well.
 
In very simple terms, wouldn’t this just take Club 1872 (before any later dilution) a bit over the 25% block vote which would literally ensure what happens could never happen again? It wouldn’t be running the Club.
 
It shouldn’t go unnoticed that Dave King, a man who always has the best interest of the club, has confirmed he feels c1872 is the right body to sell his shares to. This mindset is also backed by the current shareholders.

That is all very well but it isn't the seller who needs convincing but the buyers. They are the ones being asked to come up with the cash.
 
In very simple terms, wouldn’t this just take Club 1872 (before any later dilution) a bit over the 25% block vote which would literally ensure what happens could never happen again? It wouldn’t be running the Club.

Yes, and it is a hugely positive step. Now we need to see the details of how it would work.
 
Club 1872 are bound to have a good bit of money I'd imagine. I've left my direct debit running since moving over from RST. Bound to be 1000s still paying monthly?
That’s maybe the problem some fans will have with them and potential fan ownership.
What funds is there in the pot? Why has there been no agm the past few years? Least fans would be able to see this information and elect director etc?
 
I doubt that they are that far along in their thinking. Also, and I don't really know who the people running C1872 are (shame on me as a member), they probably don't have expertise in this kind of transaction and the structural changes that will be needed to make it work.
Having a veto doesn't stop any issues.

What about future investment? Purchasing the shares from Dave King doesn't put more money in to the club and unforgettable just now, money is what we require.
Dave King has nothing to do with the running of the club, C1872 buying his shares doesn’t change anything, apart from fan representation, and future finance will be raised in the usual manner. I think :oops:
 
I'm in favour of fan ownership so this is a good thing for me. Getting 25% would be huge. Do we know how much Club 1872 actually have in the bank? They haven't been involved in any of the share issues and members have still been contributing monthly.
 
We are all aware of the state of play in South Africa, which means Dave King can longer be as involved as he would like, so selling his shares makes sense - and selling those shares to the fans fulfills his initial promise to secure the legacy of our club. However, the information, or lack thereof, given to current C1972 members is somewhat of a concern. There are no guarantees that C1972 will be able to substantially grow their membership enough to fulfill the purchase of those shares, therefore they will instead be reliant on goodwill of their current membership.
 
I don’t like the sound of this . What happens if in future years like this year we need additional funds to cover a shortfall? To be honest as well C1872 have not demonstrated to me anything to suggest they have the ability to run a Club as big as ours. I will certainly not be contributing too or supporting this
 
Your Dave Kings and Douglas Parks while not old are not spring chickens either. If anything were to happen to them or they decide they wanted out we could be in trouble. That’s the problem with a rich businessman model. The influence can change over time and not always for the better.

I’m cautiously optimistic about this. C1872 have got a lot to do to convince people they can actually act like a group that has a huge shareholding in a “business” like this. Investors will get the opportunity to elect a representative into the board to represent the members as best they can. Not everyone will always agree (which is the sticking point) but understanding that if you don’t like the elected board members representation. You will get a chance to vote someone else on at the next election.

I think we need to see this as an opportunity to never be shafted by a Whyte/Green/Ashley type character ever again. To have some representation at board level. A quiet (not silent) partner.
It’s not an expectation that we somehow fund each transfer window. Vote who the manager is, and demand Greggs and McDonalds in the concourses.
 
Will they actually run the club though? Does it not just get them a seat on the board?

They won't be running the Club - such a thing would be a concern to outside investors. It will, though, be a prominent position on the Board.

In theory, it's great news. Logistically, it may be too much of an ask for this to go through.

It's unfortunate timing, although the circumstances have presented the opportunity. The Club needs additional investment. It really makes a title win and a shot of CL qualification all the more important.
 
Having a veto doesn't stop any issues.

What about future investment? Purchasing the shares from Dave King doesn't put more money in to the club and unforgettable just now, money is what we require.
Having a veto is far better than not having one and would have stopped the worst of Whyte/Green. It would have also gave us an insight assuming we had a borad member.

This isn’t about fan ownership. It isn’t about the fans funding the club in perpetuity. We there as a check and balance.
This is the best option we have. To turn our noses up now would be a monumental disaster.
 
Dave King has nothing to do with the running of the club, C1872 buying his shares doesn’t change anything, apart from fan representation, and future finance will be raised in the usual manner. I think :oops:

Not necessarily.

If C1872 wanted to maintain it's percentage shareholding then it would mean having to buy shares in any rights issue or new share issue. It could certainly affect how the club raises money.

Is that a bad thing? The counter argument may well be that relying on benefactors is unsustainable. An unsustainable business model eventually ends up with investors running out of money and the club becoming vulnerable to the vultures who would start circling.
 
Phil will be saying King selling when the going is good will be hard sell I am life member have shares of my own and approaching retirement it would be an investment of the heart rather than financial . 20000 legacy members what happens to life members or those currently putting in rgeular payments surely will need a scaled approach and cammyrangers comments should also be noted
Fill is an insignificant little prick, who can go fuuck himself 7 ways.
 
Who knows but the existing guys are putting substantial money in to the club. The recent accounts show the level of funding required as well.
Of course they are. My point was you were highlighting that if this works then Club 1872 might not have the ability to put further funds in where necessary. If Club 1872 don’t buy King’s shares then who does? There’s not a long queue of folk we would trust. If Park et al buy Kings shares then they too would almost certainly then find themselves unable to inject further funds. Just as you feared Club 1872 might find.

Bottom line is that King wants out, to put it bluntly. Someone has to buy his shares and who better than the fans? I actually don’t think Club 1872 can pull this off but I wish them well and I will probably back it, since I can’t currently buy my own shares in the Club. It’s a big ask for them though and, personally, my biggest fear is not how Club 1872 handle it but what happens to Kings shares if they fail. For all their perceived failings I’d rather Club 1872 than someone who’s chosen, through all our troubles, to steer clear then appear on the scene when things are looking up in footballing terms.
 
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