I’ve Stopped My Club 1872 Contributions In Light Of The Proposed King Shares Puchase

IslayGer said:
Same here,I'm paying my monthly for the near future but 'Im not sure where its going to lead us.
To be honest I don't think i will be setting up a legacy. Not had enough information to commit straight away.
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Yes, I’m 18.72 per month IG.

I previously had shares prior to 2012, and despite what happened I wanted to help our club.

Id prefer Coisty’s suggestion of buying shares myself if that became an option.
 
Hadn’t actually thought about this from a board members perspective.

How must our most recent investors feel having paid at market value to find out another party are being given the opportunity to become biggest single shareholder at a significant discount?

I also think that this puts the board in a difficult position in terms of attracting further investment. Now this could go two ways, we either see NO further investment, or we see a push to dilute shareholding’s significantly therefore preventing C1872 reaching that 25% mark.
 
sherbrook_loyal said:
After much deliberation, I’ve decided to no longer contribute to Club 1872.

I don’t think that it’s too much of a stretch to say that recent announcements are a bit of a kick in the teeth to our current wealthy investors, who are all loyal supporters like you and I.

If I’d invested the sums of money these shareholders had, I’d be concerned that a fans’ group could soon have a majority say in the club I’ve heavily invested in.

For me, the not inconsiderable sum of £13 million would do a lot more good going to the club than any individual.
And I say that as a big Dave King fan.

That the Club 1872 fans’ group seems to be extremely poorly run would only add to my concerns.

As someone who has contributed each month to Club 1872 for a long time, the King news just doesn’t sit right with me.

Club 1872 members were polled recently to ascertain interest in a much smaller shares purchase, yet there is no such similar poll for a potentially much larger purchase.
How can this be?

Our club desperately needs money – and, as a Club 1872 member, I’d far rather our money went towards new shares, so the £13 million that has been suggested goes to the club.

And I’m quite sure the current board would be very receptive to such a move.

King has every right to sell his shares – and I’ll be eternally grateful for all his efforts – but I think this is a terrible move.

I trust King enough to be able to sell his shares to other investors who would have RFC’s best interests at heart.

Apologies if this seems overly dramatic, but I can no longer support Club 1872 on this new path they’ve chosen without even consulting members.

Any money I’ll be spending from now on will exclusively be going direct to the club.

I appreciate some may think this is a ‘look at me’ post – it’s not... and I also appreciate that some may question the need for a new thread – but I think that people deciding to walk away from Club 1872 in light of recent events is reason enough for a thread in its own right.

Anyone else feel similar?
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After having a right good think about this I agree. Moreover an organisation that can't organise an egm and can't communicate why it has internal infighting and resignations. The fighting ahead ove a place on the board will get very dirty.
This will end in tears imho.
 
I guarantee the few at the top of Club 1872 will start jockeying for position and it will become a massive fight, because one will want to be the representative on the board and self promotion overlooks what they are ‘elected’ for.

C1872 becoming a private members club for the few blazers would do my nut in especially with my money. It would have to be all open minuted at the meetings no closed meetings at all and a proper election process with members getting de-selected where necessary.
 
Rangers daft said:
If club 1872 can raise 13 million they should invest that money into Rangers not Dave Kings Bank account.
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Why should DK not get a return on what hes invested over the years..... the squad is valued at £100m+ so if the man who saved the club wants to take a back seat and retire why is he not allowed to? Hes given C1872 and option to buy his shares, they will never in a million years be able to raise the full £13M required to do so but the sentiment is there, anyone berating DK for anything needs to have a look at themselves, he is 100% not bailing out and leaving the club in limbo
 
sherbrook_loyal said:
Club 1872 members were polled recently to ascertain interest in a much smaller shares purchase, yet there is no such similar poll for a potentially much larger purchase.
How can this be?
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Thats a really unfair thing to say IMO.

When you subscribe to c1872 you chose if your money goes to shares or to projects, that poll was needed to allow them to buy shares with the money collected for projects.

Polls are not needed to buy shares with money collected to buy shares with.
 
Rangers daft said:
If club 1872 can raise 13 million they should invest that money into Rangers not Dave Kings Bank account.
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But if you were investing that much you would want a say in how it was spent ie through shares and board representation. One way £13m fresh money could be put into the club would be if there was another dilution and maybe the existing major shareholders including King don’t want that having already invested heavily. Or DK could gift his shares to 1872 who could then invest, but why should he, he has earned every penny of profit he may make (if he’s making any at all and I think he says he wasn’t). Or 1872 could just collect money and gift it to the club to upgrade the stadium and training facilities without any shares being bought or representation.

I don’t think anyone is doing anything untoward here. Whether we think 1872 would be effective Board members might be a good discussion. It looks as if any fans who want a say in how the club is run will have to join the 1872 scheme and presumably through that they can get rid of 1872 folk they don’t like and promote views they do like?
 
bigbluebomber said:
I guarantee the few at the top of Club 1872 will start jockeying for position and it will become a massive fight, because one will want to be the representative on the board and self promotion overlooks what they are ‘elected’ for.

C1872 becoming a private members club for the few blazers would do my nut in especially with my money. It would have to be all open minuted at the meetings no closed meetings at all and a proper election process with members getting de-selected where necessary.
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There ony are a few of them at present anyway on the board as far as I'm aware.

I've no idea the exact figure.

Its a bit early to be accusing any of them of jockeying until such times as the take up of this is known and without any evidence of that happening.

Time will tell
 
A concern for me is a requirement for soft loans, cash flow to keep us going, that have been provided by the individual shareholders, C1872 will never be in a position to provide this.
As a percentage shareholder that can block any resolution, that will surely be an issue for the individual investors?
 
Paisleyprod said:
Club 1872 may have bitten off more than they can chew here.

The idea is fine but its too big and not great for the people who regularly invest for reasons laid out above.

The people I've spoken to re this are a bit lukewarm to it and in this climate will folk fork out?

Some will. But 20000 when they never had that amount of members including rst life members etc is a tall order

Will I be putting in? I doubt it. My job is not secure and I've paid plenty this season for season ticket, mygers and rtv. Probably more than I can justify.

Do I buy into this and not go on holiday next year? Hmmm

I wish them luck and by heck, they will need it
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It's not so much that they've bitten off more than they can chew. If c1872 had the correct structure in place and a clear proposal to put to the support then it could well be realistic and achievable. Unfortunately there's a significant question over the structure of c1872 and whether or not it's fit for any purpose and there's an equally big question about exactly how they hope to buy King's shares, never mind what happens if they actually managed to do so.

They need to work on the fundamental structure of the organisation, then produce a business plan that fans can scrutinise. If they do those things then it's a straight up informed decision on whether or not it's for the benefit of the club going forward.
 
scobie1873 said:
A concern for me is a requirement for soft loans, cash flow to keep us going, that have been provided by the individual shareholders, C1872 will never be in a position to provide this.
As a percentage shareholder that can block any resolution, that will surely be an issue for the individual investors?
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Could only block special resolutions that need 75% approval, ordinary resolutions are only 50%.
 
kingstonbear said:
Hadn’t actually thought about this from a board members perspective.

How must our most recent investors feel having paid at market value to find out another party are being given the opportunity to become biggest single shareholder at a significant discount?

I also think that this puts the board in a difficult position in terms of attracting further investment. Now this could go two ways, we either see NO further investment, or we see a push to dilute shareholding’s significantly therefore preventing C1872 reaching that 25% mark.
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I believe all share issues have been done at 20p a share.
 
iaatpies said:
It's not so much that they've bitten off more than they can chew. If c1872 had the correct structure in place and a clear proposal to put to the support then it could well be realistic and achievable. Unfortunately there's a significant question over the structure of c1872 and whether or not it's fit for any purpose and there's an equally big question about exactly how they hope to buy King's shares, never mind what happens if they actually managed to do so.

They need to work on the fundamental structure of the organisation, then produce a business plan that fans can scrutinise. If they do those things then it's a straight up informed decision on whether or not it's for the benefit of the club going forward.
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So in other words bitten off more than they can chew with this in their current form and structure.
 
As a Rangers supporter for nearly 50 years I have never felt that I ever needed anyone like Club 1872 to speak on my behalf.

Now I feel quite concerned about this move as we have all seen the disagreements between fans groups over the years and we can't afford this to be taken into the board room if it would harm the club.

At some point someone in Club 1872 will , over the piece , think that they have the right to be the number 1 kiddie and that's when the problems start.

Hopefully further clarification is not far away.
 
13 million pound is a hell of alot of money. Ive got alot of time for Dave King but the fact not a penny of it will go into the club doesnt sit right with me. We are needing loans from the major shareholders still at the club just now due to covid etc. There must be a half decent amount of money sitting with Club1872 just now have they offered to do the same?
I support the fact that supporters should have a major say in our club. Especially after everything we have went through but Ive never thought full fan ownership would work. I dont think a fans group majority shareholder would work.
We are Rangers Supporters. If we were piling 13 million pound into Rangers I could get on board with it. Thats 13 million we never see again. On top of that you are asking people to give up a vast amount of money as we head into the worst recession in history to have no real say in major decisions. I.E this one.
 
Paisleyprod said:
Club 1872 may have bitten off more than they can chew here.

The idea is fine but its too big and not great for the people who regularly invest for reasons laid out above.

The people I've spoken to re this are a bit lukewarm to it and in this climate will folk fork out?

Some will. But 20000 when they never had that amount of members including rst life members etc is a tall order

Will I be putting in? I doubt it. My job is not secure and I've paid plenty this season for season ticket, mygers and rtv. Probably more than I can justify.

Do I buy into this and not go on holiday next year? Hmmm

I wish them luck and by heck, they will need it
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Season tickets, merchandise,RTV etc etc plus another 500 pound. I cant see this plan come to frutation.
 
bigy said:
I’ve done the same - I was contributing to invest in the club. Not to pay millions to a supposed billionaire for his shares.

I’ve nothing but respect for Mr King but this is a stupid decision by club 1872.
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Maybe they should buy as many as they can afford from him and appealed for new members?

Then started saving again and invest cash in to rangers at right time.

Who knows.
 
AbronhillBear said:
13 million pound is a hell of alot of money. Ive got alot of time for Dave King but the fact not a penny of it will go into the club doesnt sit right with me. We are needing loans from the major shareholders still at the club just now due to covid etc. There must be a half decent amount of money sitting with Club1872 just now have they offered to do the same?
I support the fact that supporters should have a major say in our club. Especially after everything we have went through but Ive never thought full fan ownership would work. I dont think a fans group majority shareholder would work.
We are Rangers Supporters. If we were piling 13 million pound into Rangers I could get on board with it. Thats 13 million we never see again. On top of that you are asking people to give up a vast amount of money as we head into the worst recession in history to have no real say in major decisions. I.E this one.
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13 million virtually clears the lose made.
 
Our fans simply can't be trusted to organise themselves and pull in one direction. That counts it out for me. I don't really see an issue with DK choosing to sell to fans, it's entirely up to him what he does.
 
EndOfDays said:
For those against this, who should King sell his shares to, just any random person like the next Murray, Whyte, Green or Ashley or to Rangers fans?
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This was my thinking. DK wants to sell his shares and have fan representation on the board.
Surely Club 1872 is the 'only game in town' when it comes to fan ownership?
Therefore, DK's obvious move is to offer the shares to Club 1872

What am I missing?
 
hot orange said:
So in other words bitten off more than they can chew with this in their current form and structure.
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More that they've skipped a few steps. They've skipped the bit where they out a viable proposal to the support to allow fans to make an informed decision. We still don't know the full details of king's proposal. We know what he wants to achieve but not how we can achieve it. Fill in the blanks and it may well be realistic and achievable. It's those blanks that are the biggest issue.
 
strider said:
I've never been a Club1872 contributer, so take this as you will with that in mind - I think they've approached this the wrong way around.

It's all a bit like the SNP independence argument.

"Being owned by fans is better because it works at other clubs, so we should be owned by fans. Don't worry about the dysfunction of the fans group, being fan owned is the most important thing"

I think they have to prove that this is the best way to go before asking people to buy in. Maybe they have time for that, but it's a huge ask in three years, I reckon.
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Bingo.

It may work at some clubs, smaller clubs at that. None the size of Rangers.

Before folk mention Bundesliga, the rules are different over there.
 
I’ve maintained all along that fan ownership (being the largest shareholder) or fans on the board sounds a terrible idea and the cause of many future problems. We aren’t some two bit mob and the standard of representation of club 1872 is not what I would want having a leading say in the future of our club. That’s ignoring the predictable falling out that will inevitably take place periodically.

Big fat no for me and if DK is to step away I would hope another bear/bears who have succeeded in business and have deep pockets would assume his position.
 
sherbrook_loyal said:
The timing of this is bloody terrible.

I agree completely that this should not be happening right in the middle of such a crucial season.
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I kind of get what you mean but it's only terrible if you live in a vacuum tbh.

Doing well on the pitch is great but it doesn't stop the lives of the people who run the club. If King wants to sell now that's it. He's given a good notice period, whether it happens or not, and not has to be the bet atm.

I don't really subscribe to the fact that off-field matters like this will affect the team. It clearly did in 2011-2015/16, but that was a different thing. It directly affected players at that point. This won't change anything, not for a few years anyway.
 
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It's all a bit amateurish at the moment with Club1872 sending that memo about loyalty shares immediately after the 'offer' announcement. We all need to take a step back and gather our thoughts and get more detailed information about the proposed 'offer'.
 
I understand people’s money concerns, especially at this time. In terms of timing, maybe this is the time scale in which Dave King wants to sell his shares in. I just can’t understand anyone who’s been contributing to Club 1872 to help them get a bigger stake in the club objecting to them, ehm how do I put this, getting bigger stake in the club.

just a few short years ago I was stood out in the snow protesting at the Spivs attempting to sell Ibrox. With 25% we’d have no worries of that happening.
 
When the bunnet rescued celtic he invested about 16 million of his own cash and after a few years a stadium rebuild and numerous share issued later walked away with about 60 million
King on the other hand had to wrestle control from all the shambles before alongside park et al
Its cost king and the rest plenty in time and cash, him asking for some money for shares from the fans whilst imo acceptable, it has a serious downside namely that its being done only through club 1872, fans should be allowed to invest personally
 
I think the concerns about how Club 1872 is administered and our fans propensity for in-fighting are entirely legitimate as they grow their shareholding, but with the greatest respect mate I don’t think any shareholders who’ve stuck money into us need you or I to worry about them and their cash, and certainly don't see it as something that is a 'kick in the teeth' - indeed, I don’t understand how it’s different to another rich investor or group upping their shares, who would you prefer King sold to if he (presumably) wants out? Also, while I can see the viewpoint that the 13 million should have gone directly to the club rather to King, if he's going to sell them it might as well be to a supporters group. In addition to this, given you presumably accepted the gradual gaining of shares by Club 1872, why would a fans group becoming the biggest shareholder concern you?

Where I do agree with you is that a vote should have been had by the members, but is it not better to fix these issues from the inside rather than abandon it completely? Genuinely curious, because I myself will probably join Club 1872 as a result of this news when my circumstances permit, because I see it as too good of an opportunity to miss for a fan group to substantially increase their stake. In short, I guess what I'm saying is regardless of your feelings on the specifics of the deal - the money going to King or how it might affect other shareholders etc. - if we believe in the principle of fan ownership in the long-term, is this deal not still a net positive for us?
 
EndOfDays said:
For those against this, who should King sell his shares to, just any random person like the next Murray, Whyte, Green or Ashley or to Rangers fans?
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That's a strawman fallacy.

What if he sold them to the next Park or Gibson?

There are risks either way here.
 
Rangers daft said:
If club 1872 can raise 13 million they should invest that money into Rangers not Dave Kings Bank account.
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Bigger picture is they're securing the future of our club with a 25%+1 voting block.

That's bigger than funding two or three players one summer when the money is then gone forever.

If we don't buy these shares, who is King selling them to? It might be someone trustworthy....but then in five years does that person care who buys them?
 
strider said:
That's a strawman fallacy.

What if he sold them to the next Park or Gibson?

There are risks either way here.
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But the alternative is the C1872 ownership of them which protects us for good.

People suggesting King sell them to someone else is the fallacy as things stand. He's wanting C1872 to own them.
 
Rangers daft said:
If club 1872 can raise 13 million they should invest that money into Rangers not Dave Kings Bank account.
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Why? Dave King can sell his shares to whoever he wants

You do realise if it wasn’t for him we wouldn’t have a club at all??
 
It depends if we want an immediate stake in the club , or gradual. Immediately £13m is a lot of money that would go a long way in running rangers if club1872 put it directly in. The alternative is buy King out over a number of years in order build our stake.
 
I think ultimately its what David King planned all along he always spoke of further fan engagement and involvement in the club.

This method would in theory give the fans a say.

To me theirs a couple of things that would need to happen though.

C1872 would need to establish an independent board even if it meant salaries paid.

This would mean that the decisions made are made effectively and without feeling. It would also cut out but want this person etc etc and infighting.

This is easy enough to do with by sub committee but reitterate it can be because they are a big rangers fan and friends with x and y it has to be the best person for the job

The mandate would need to be aware though that if there was an election to the board people would need to realise not everything can be shared with the general fan base.

If this was to work it would be a brilliant thing we would ultimately protect our club longer term by being a major shareholder.

That's the aim protect the club not influence decisions of how the football club and board works.

There would need to be a big marketing campaign around the mandate and numbers needed and what the plan was going to be.
 
SuperGers07 said:
Bingo.

It may work at some clubs, smaller clubs at that. None the size of Rangers.

Before folk mention Bundesliga, the rules are different over there.
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It works at bigger clubs than Rangers.

Bayern Munich for example.

The 50% +1 gives the absolute majority to fans. It's a fundamental part of German football culture. What's being suggested is a pragmatic approach that may work for Rangers. The barrier isn't practical at Rangers - there's a solution out there that would work. The barrier is cultural. It's a concept that is completely alien to many supporters and that is contrary to their own politically conservative views on business.
 
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