Alex Rae actually made a really good point/asked question last night: re Colt Teams

Buffalobluebear

Well-Known Member
His point/question to the other two, and I’m paraphrasing was essentially “it’s been done in Germany and Spain what, if any, was the stumbling block that prevented B teams playing in these leagues and how did they overcome it”

of course, the Motherwell fan cut to break and I don’t remember the question actually being debated or answered after that. So Isn’t that part of the problem? maybe Germany and Spain can and have looked at the bigger picture and financial/player and national team benefits, long term, and gone ahead, where as in Scotland we have this very parochial way of running leagues/teams specifically in the lower leagues?
 
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The stumbling block is clubs don’t want change, they are happy being drip fed scraps to have the status quo, that’s why progressive clubs like cove Rangers should be the bench mark, even the EK’s of this world have more ambition than the likes of Brechin.

You’ll not meet a East Stirling fan who’ll disagree that dropping out of the league was the best thing that could’ve happened, years of propping up the league and now they’ve got challenges and goals.
 
The stumbling block is clubs don’t want change, they are happy being drip fed scraps to have the status quo, that’s why progressive clubs like cove Rangers should be the bench mark, even the EK’s of this world have more ambition than the likes of Brechin.

You’ll not meet a East Stirling fan who’ll disagree that dropping out of the league was the best thing that could’ve happened, years of propping up the league and now they’ve got challenges and goals.
Never understood why teams/clubs are happy with scraps than a complete revamp that could/would see them grow. It’s backward thinking
 
Tbh there's quite clearly an argument against it from their point of view. Not everything is due to hate. Some of it, from some places, might be but equally there will be plenty people at your Aberdeen and Hibs who think why should we be allowed to develop our youth players in such a way that they can't. And there will be plenty people who don't think it's right that we get to go in halfway up a supposed pyramid without earning our place. And then there's people who have ambition for their own club and don't fancy two well resourced opponents to compete with.

Of course, there are compelling counter arguments to these points as well but it's a very complex argument with lots to consider and not just black and white.
 
Tbh there's quite clearly an argument against it from their point of view. Not everything is due to hate. Some of it, from some places, might be but equally there will be plenty people at your Aberdeen and Hibs who think why should we be allowed to develop our youth players in such a way that they can't. And there will be plenty people who don't think it's right that we get to go in halfway up a supposed pyramid without earning our place. And then there's people who have ambition for their own club and don't fancy two well resourced opponents to compete with.

Of course, there are compelling counter arguments to these points as well but it's a very complex argument with lots to consider and not just black and white.

What’s to stop Aberdeen, Hibs etc putting reserve teams into the system?

The fairest way is for any team wanting to do this given the opportunity and that includes Rangers. I don’t want parachuted anywhere.
 
What’s to stop Aberdeen, Hibs etc putting reserve teams into the system?

The fairest way is for any team wanting to do this given the opportunity and that includes Rangers. I don’t want parachuted anywhere.

Probably nothing to stop them but they can't all go in halfway up a pyramid.

Should we start in the West of Scotland League then?

I'm not saying either way. I'm just pointing out that it's quite obvious why a lot of folk don't like the idea. It's not simply because they hate us. Although that will be the case for some.
 
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The answer, for me, is much simpler.
Take Rangers out of the planning, tell everybody that it’s all Celtic’s idea, and this, and any other motion, will be passed in minutes with no fuss at all.
We need a "rousing speech"
 
His point/question to the other two, and I’m paraphrasing was essentially “it’s been done in Germany and Spain what, if any, was the stumbling block that prevented B teams playing in these leagues and how did they overcome it”

of course, the Motherwell fan cut to break and I don’t remember the question actually being debated or answered after that. So Isn’t that part of the problem? maybe Germany and Spain can and have looked at the bigger picture and financial/player and national team benefits, long term, and gone ahead, where as in Scotland we have this very parochial way of running leagues/teams specifically in the lower leagues?
He "cut to the break" as that's the time they schedule the breaks in every show. He also did ask that he wondered if anyone did know if there was any resistance to the plans being introduced abroad (paraphrasing).

We can all speculate as to why there is hostility to this plan but the presenter going to adverts for Just Eat etc and then getting travel news isn't one of them.
 
In other countries the various teams and football authorities want to work together to improve the National game.

In Scotland it’s all about hating Rangers, that is priority number 1
 
France and Germany have a lot of big clubs that can afford to do it. It doesn't obviously advantage just a couple of clubs, who in Scotland, are already in a different league from the rest. It may be a selfish objection, but it's not hard to understand why they would not vote for something that would take us even further out of sight.
 
Tbh there's quite clearly an argument against it from their point of view. Not everything is due to hate. Some of it, from some places, might be but equally there will be plenty people at your Aberdeen and Hibs who think why should we be allowed to develop our youth players in such a way that they can't. And there will be plenty people who don't think it's right that we get to go in halfway up a supposed pyramid without earning our place. And then there's people who have ambition for their own club and don't fancy two well resourced opponents to compete with.

Of course, there are compelling counter arguments to these points as well but it's a very complex argument with lots to consider and not just black and white.
Half the players that don't make it with us will end up with them anyway and will be better developed when they do.
 
As someone involved in a club in the lower non-league (below the Lowland League), I’m really against both sides being parachuted into the LL. Theres over 150 clubs below the LL trying to get into it who through no fault of their own are being bypassed.

It’s not about hating Rangers or Celtic. %^*& sake I love Rangers. The real fact is there is more to Scottish Football than just Rangers and Celtic. There is a lower non-league pyramid full of sides run by guys who love the game who just want to play football and find their level unlike many in the SPFL who we’ve seen full of spite for years. The pyramid needs to matter for these clubs or what’s the point?

B teams should start at the bottom.

If it’s about wanting to play the LL sides for development, why not ask them for an exclusive friendly schedule instead of joining their league, ‘for a season’.

The argument that Colt or B teams work in other countries so should work here ignores the fact these countries also invest heavily in facilities and higher quality youth coaches to aid youth players development, whereas in Scotland we have goals removed in the summer and fees charged all year round for poor quality facilities instead of letting people play and develop.
 
As someone involved in a club in the lower non-league (below the Lowland League), I’m really against both sides being parachuted into the LL. Theres over 150 clubs below the LL trying to get into it who through no fault of their own are being bypassed.

It’s not about hating Rangers or Celtic. %^*& sake I love Rangers. The real fact is there is more to Scottish Football than just Rangers and Celtic. There is a lower non-league pyramid full of sides run by guys who love the game who just want to play football and find their level unlike many in the SPFL who we’ve seen full of spite for years. The pyramid needs to matter for these clubs or what’s the point?

B teams should start at the bottom.

If it’s about wanting to play the LL sides for development, why not ask them for an exclusive friendly schedule instead of joining their league, ‘for a season’.

The argument that Colt or B teams work in other countries so should work here ignores the fact these countries also invest heavily in facilities and higher quality youth coaches to aid youth players development, whereas in Scotland we have goals removed in the summer and fees charged all year round for poor quality facilities instead of letting people play and develop.

I think the fact it works in far more progressive countries which absolutely wipe the floor with us at a national level shows it’s worth it for the bigger picture.
 
As someone involved in a club in the lower non-league (below the Lowland League), I’m really against both sides being parachuted into the LL. Theres over 150 clubs below the LL trying to get into it who through no fault of their own are being bypassed.

It’s not about hating Rangers or Celtic. %^*& sake I love Rangers. The real fact is there is more to Scottish Football than just Rangers and Celtic. There is a lower non-league pyramid full of sides run by guys who love the game who just want to play football and find their level unlike many in the SPFL who we’ve seen full of spite for years. The pyramid needs to matter for these clubs or what’s the point?

B teams should start at the bottom.

If it’s about wanting to play the LL sides for development, why not ask them for an exclusive friendly schedule instead of joining their league, ‘for a season’.

The argument that Colt or B teams work in other countries so should work here ignores the fact these countries also invest heavily in facilities and higher quality youth coaches to aid youth players development, whereas in Scotland we have goals removed in the summer and fees charged all year round for poor quality facilities instead of letting people play and develop.
There would be zero point in B teams starting at lowest in the Pyramid tier next season, the idea is that the players need challenged, and they would not be suitably challenged in the lower tier of WoSFL.

None of the 150 teams you refer to are being disadvantaged by this, their Champions will still be promoted.

Would any WoS teams agree to being invited into a LL that they could not get promotion from ?(which is the deal for The B teams entering the LL)
 
I think the issue also is why is there not a decent reserve league for our youth players to play in and then they wouldnt have the need to join lowland leagues ect , SFA & SPFL also need looked at , why not bring back the old reserve league that we used to have back in the 80s & 90s were you have youth playing alongside older pros who are either coming back from injury or on the fringes of the 1st team and need game time , 35,000 fans going to Ibrox for ian durrants comeback game in reserves , im sure the young lads would benefit from playing alongside a ryan jack or a katic coming back to fitness and playing a few reserve games or playing against fringe 1st team players from other clubs
 
I think the issue also is why is there not a decent reserve league for our youth players to play in and then they wouldnt have the need to join lowland leagues ect , SFA & SPFL also need looked at , why not bring back the old reserve league that we used to have back in the 80s & 90s were you have youth playing alongside older pros who are either coming back from injury or on the fringes of the 1st team and need game time , 35,000 fans going to Ibrox for ian durrants comeback game in reserves , im sure the young lads would benefit from playing alongside a ryan jack or a katic coming back to fitness and playing a few reserve games or playing against fringe 1st team players from other clubs

The lack of any League in Scotland beyond U-18 is definitely a symptom which has led to this.

But the good ole style Reserve football is gone forever, 22-man matchday squads and using subs has seen that off.

Most clubs can’t afford a full Reserve team now and it ended up full youth players v youth players

Back in the day, the first team only took 14 players and those not selected went away with the Reserve teams, it was great. But unlikely ever to return which is a shame.
 
As someone involved in a club in the lower non-league (below the Lowland League), I’m really against both sides being parachuted into the LL. Theres over 150 clubs below the LL trying to get into it who through no fault of their own are being bypassed.

It’s not about hating Rangers or Celtic. %^*& sake I love Rangers. The real fact is there is more to Scottish Football than just Rangers and Celtic. There is a lower non-league pyramid full of sides run by guys who love the game who just want to play football and find their level unlike many in the SPFL who we’ve seen full of spite for years. The pyramid needs to matter for these clubs or what’s the point?

B teams should start at the bottom.

If it’s about wanting to play the LL sides for development, why not ask them for an exclusive friendly schedule instead of joining their league, ‘for a season’.

The argument that Colt or B teams work in other countries so should work here ignores the fact these countries also invest heavily in facilities and higher quality youth coaches to aid youth players development, whereas in Scotland we have goals removed in the summer and fees charged all year round for poor quality facilities instead of letting people play and develop.
Why do you think it works in countries that are actually successfully by and large but wouldn't here?
 
Small clubs afraid of progression as that would mean the end for some of them, and this is really what is required.
Catch 22, too many wee clubs yet they all have a long history that doesnt deserve to die like thirds. imo
 
I think the fact it works in far more progressive countries which absolutely wipe the floor with us at a national level shows it’s worth it for the bigger picture.

But as I said, these more progressive countries also invest in youth development on a national level. In Scotland we don’t. The SFA come up with a new plan every few years to produce a ‘Golden Generation’ of kids and it gets ripped up and rebooted just as often. If this move was coupled with a mass investment in facilities and coaching for youth then it would have more merit.

As it stands it’s ourselves and Celtic giving our youth players a season of friendlies against part-time sides who are at Tier 5 for a reason - I guarantee many will pay more attention to the ‘Elite’ games programme we’ll still be doing in tandem with the ‘competitive’ league season.

There would be zero point in B teams starting at lowest in the Pyramid tier next season, the idea is that the players need challenged, and they would not be suitably challenged in the lower tier of WoSFL.

None of the 150 teams you refer to are being disadvantaged by this, their Champions will still be promoted.

Would any WoS teams agree to being invited into a LL that they could not get promotion from ?(which is the deal for The B teams entering the LL)
I’d suggest that if we are genuine in our commitment to Colts or B teams then starting at the bottom knowing full well we’ll have a side in these leagues for more than just one season is exactly what we should do. Or is this LL season just a quick fix until something better comes along and we’ll all just walk away at the end of the season?

Would you understand the anger and frustration sides in English League One would feel if Rangers and Celtic where parachuted into the Championship ahead of them?
 
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But as I said, these more progressive countries also invest in youth development on a national level. In Scotland we don’t. The SFA come up with a new plan every few years to produce a ‘Golden Generation’ of kids and it gets ripped up and rebooted just as often. If this move was coupled with a mass investment in facilities and coaching for youth then it would have more merit.

As it stands it’s ourselves and Celtic giving our youth players a season of friendlies against part-time sides who are at Tier 5 for a reason - I guarantee many will pay more attention to the ‘Elite’ games programme we’ll still be doing in tandem with the ‘competitive’ league season.


I’d suggest that if we are genuine in our commitment to Colts or B teams then starting at the bottom knowing full well we’ll have a side in these leagues for more than just one season is exactly what we should do. Or is this LL season just a quick fix until something better comes along and we’ll all just walk away at the end of the season?

Would you understand the anger and frustration sides in English League One would feel if Rangers and Celtic where parachuted into the Championship ahead of them?

The 150+ sides are being disadvantaged.
In what way are they being disadvantaged?

And it’s been made clear as day that this is a one-season job.
 
Why do you think it works in countries that are actually successfully by and large but wouldn't here?

Meaningful investment in facilities and coaching, I’ll shout it all day. These countries do it, Scotland doesn’t. In this country we lock up pitches, charge kids to use poor facilities and more often than not they are coached by their parents, who while doing their best, clearly aren’t qualified coaches. If there was that investment coupled with this move, it would be a lot more palatable.

I should also stress that I don’t mean this investment should come from Rangers and Celtic. It should be led by the SFA (I know, I know) and supported by the Scottish Government.
 
Because Spain and Germany don't hate themselves to death
It's not so much as hating themselves, its us and to a lesser extent, Celtic that they hate. They don't mind our money going to their clubs, or sharing TV money but they don't want our support in their towns, shops or pubs. Partly because of previous trouble but mainly because of our success, profile and numbers. They're quite happy to be left sitting in the corner as long as we feed them.
The majority have no ambition, are antiquated and run by small time business men with inflated egos.
 
One of the worst things to happen to the game in terms of development was the loss of the old reserve leagues but football has changed a lot since then (unfortunately some of it definitely not for the better).

This is the next best thing.
 
I am maybe missing the point here.What benefits will our Colts team get from playing in the lowland league.

By playing in the lowland league they will continue to train at the RTC and will be playing in the formation and style of play that we want them to play. Where as sending them all out to different clubs on loan means they're subject to the tactical style of the club they are on loan to. Only downside I see is the low level they'll be playing at.
 
As someone involved in a club in the lower non-league (below the Lowland League), I’m really against both sides being parachuted into the LL. Theres over 150 clubs below the LL trying to get into it who through no fault of their own are being bypassed.

It’s not about hating Rangers or Celtic. %^*& sake I love Rangers. The real fact is there is more to Scottish Football than just Rangers and Celtic. There is a lower non-league pyramid full of sides run by guys who love the game who just want to play football and find their level unlike many in the SPFL who we’ve seen full of spite for years. The pyramid needs to matter for these clubs or what’s the point?

B teams should start at the bottom.

If it’s about wanting to play the LL sides for development, why not ask them for an exclusive friendly schedule instead of joining their league, ‘for a season’.


The argument that Colt or B teams work in other countries so should work here ignores the fact these countries also invest heavily in facilities and higher quality youth coaches to aid youth players development, whereas in Scotland we have goals removed in the summer and fees charged all year round for poor quality facilities instead of letting people play and develop.
Friendlies aren't competitive and there are no consequences for winning/losing (for both sides). Going up against players who will be playing to challenge a title or to stay in the league is a very different pressure to playing meaningless friendlies where the results don't matter.
 
By playing in the lowland league they will continue to train at the RTC and will be playing in the formation and style of play that we want them to play. Where as sending them all out to different clubs on loan means they're subject to the tactical style of the club they are on loan to. Only downside I see is the low level they'll be playing at.
Thanks mate,I can see the logic there.I agree with the low level point I can't see them learning anything from other teams.If they were in a higher league at least they would be up against some seasoned pros and wiley characters.
 
Probably nothing to stop them but they can't all go in halfway up a pyramid.

Should we start in the West of Scotland League then?

I'm not saying either way. I'm just pointing out that it's quite obvious why a lot of folk don't like the idea. It's not simply because they hate us. Although that will be the case for some.
Yes - Welcome to Largs Thistle!

:)
 
The whole pyramid needs re-structured. Scrap League 1 & 2 and create Highland/Lowland PL’s that connect between the Championship and the other leagues. It makes absolutely no sense for Stranraer to play Forfar in a league so low it probably doesn’t even cover travelling costs because of how few fans make it.

As for colt teams. Allow them in a low division and allow promotions as high as the Highland/Lowland PL.
 
Never understood why teams/clubs are happy with scraps than a complete revamp that could/would see them grow. It’s backward thinking
I think it's more to do with the suits and not the players. Scottish football allows these nobodies a plate at the table when they should be nowhere near it. They should basically have a set of criteria that if they hit then they have a voice.
The fanny that runs Alloa being a perfect example of low life in high places
 
It would maybe have helped the standard of the league if the big clubs hadn’t hoovered up all the talent for decades and not play them in competitive games at the precise time the talent needed to be playing.

We’re also undermining the lower leagues by more or less saying their not competitions in their own right and just exist to serve the higher powers.
 
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There would be zero point in B teams starting at lowest in the Pyramid tier next season, the idea is that the players need challenged, and they would not be suitably challenged in the lower tier of WoSFL.

None of the 150 teams you refer to are being disadvantaged by this, their Champions will still be promoted.

Would any WoS teams agree to being invited into a LL that they could not get promotion from ?(which is the deal for The B teams entering the LL)
We should just start in the lowest tier and let them get promoted all the way up if they aren't going to play ball. It might take 10-15 years but so is this back and forth with these small time petty clubs.
Meaningful investment in facilities and coaching, I’ll shout it all day. These countries do it, Scotland doesn’t. In this country we lock up pitches, charge kids to use poor facilities and more often than not they are coached by their parents, who while doing their best, clearly aren’t qualified coaches. If there was that investment coupled with this move, it would be a lot more palatable.

I should also stress that I don’t mean this investment should come from Rangers and Celtic. It should be led by the SFA (I know, I know) and supported by the Scottish Government.
The meaningful investment would be made by Rangers and Celtic because the SFA and government can't. Better coaching and facilities are exactly what Rangers and Celtic can offer. You know that's probably what happened over in these countries leading to their B teams.
 
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