The letter from Rev Stuart MacQuarrie which prompted me to stand for Club 1872

[Northampton_Loyalist]

The idea that C1872 could or should be shelved is fanciful. There is no vehicle for splitting the shares down and with so many previous contributors, so many who have life memberships but have never paid a penny in, so many who have made monthly contributions with a break etc that it is absolutely impossible to arrive at a fair method of dismantling it.


That is before you even look at the actual purpose of a supporters collective and the power it can wield, if run correctly.


This notion that stopping paying in is a solution, or that the whole idea can be scrapped, is folly to be honest. We have £4 million or so of supporter cash tied up and if used properly, grown and maintained, it could open up fantastic opportunities for the support and for the club.

The fact it has been mismanaged and that individuals have tried to turn it into a closed shop is not reason to walk away from it, it is reason to find solutions and refuse to hand over that level of funds to people who continually prove they are not capable of administering it.

 

[Sunnyvale_Loyal]

Club1872's donations model would have to be scrapped for it to have any future. Why would fans give their money to C1872 so that it can own share when they can buy shares from themselves directly from the club? There is no longer a need for C1872.

 

[Alan_Morton]

The idea that C1872 could or should be shelved is fanciful. There is no vehicle for splitting the shares down and with so many previous contributors, so many who have life memberships but have never paid a penny in, so many who have made monthly contributions with a break etc that it is absolutely impossible to arrive at a fair method of dismantling it.


That is before you even look at the actual purpose of a supporters collective and the power it can wield, if run correctly.


This notion that stopping paying in is a solution, or that the whole idea can be scrapped, is folly to be honest. We have £4 million or so of supporter cash tied up and if used properly, grown and maintained, it could open up fantastic opportunities for the support and for the club.

The fact it has been mismanaged and that individuals have tried to turn it into a closed shop is not reason to walk away from it, it is reason to find solutions and refuse to hand over that level of funds to people who continually prove they are not capable of administering it.

Your 2nd paragraph is wishful thinking and that's being kind.

C1872 is already unsalvageable. I fully admit there are those who put far more time and money than I did in the 2 or years or so when I contributed £18.72 a month but whatever we've put in it's now basically meaningless imo.

C1872 provided a necessary addition to key votes in AGMs gone by but it has no role to play now that the club is actually being run properly. All I see it doing now is causing petty division. I want no part of that and that probably goes for over 98% of the support whether they previously invested or not.

 

[Northampton_Loyalist]

Club1872's donations model would have to be scrapped for it to have any future. Why would fans give their money to C1872 so that it can own share when they can buy shares from themselves directly from the club? There is no longer a need for C1872.

Where do you get the notion that because for the first time Rangers supporters can buy shares for themselves, with no idea at all if that will be repeated ever, there is no need for a vehicle for the support to club together and buy shares? A complete and utter lack of logical thought process involved in that.

 

[Northampton_Loyalist]

Your 2nd paragraph is wishful thinking and that's being kind.

C1872 is already unsalvageable. I fully admit there are those who put far more time and money than I did in the 2 or years or so when I contributed £18.72 a month but whatever we've put in it's now basically meaningless imo.

C1872 provided a necessary addition to key votes in AGMs gone by but it has no role to play now that the club is actually being run properly. All I see it doing now is causing petty division. I want no part of that and that probably goes for over 98% of the support whether they previously invested or not.

There is not one single piece of wishful thinking in the second paragraph. It is an absolute fact that if well run, a group of supporters can wield significant power.


Had I said I thought C1872 could do that any time soon, there would have been a healthy dose of wishful thinking involved, granted. But I did not.


C1872 is not, at all, unsalvagable. It is sad you would feel that way and you are clearly not alone, but it already holds over £4 million of supporter cash, has the bones of a group that can function well and needs fresh blood, fresh governance and fresh impetus to get moving. To say it is not possible to salvage is conflating 'hard' with 'impossible'. A common mistake.

 

[Alan_Morton]

There is not one single piece of wishful thinking in the second paragraph. It is an absolute fact that if well run, a group of supporters can wield significant power.


Had I said I thought C1872 could do that any time soon, there would have been a healthy dose of wishful thinking involved, granted. But I did not.


C1872 is not, at all, unsalvagable. It is sad you would feel that way and you are clearly not alone, but it already holds over £4 million of supporter cash, has the bones of a group that can function well and needs fresh blood, fresh governance and fresh impetus to get moving. To say it is not possible to salvage is conflating 'hard' with 'impossible'. A common mistake.

We've been talking about facts of a well run supporter group having ownership of the club as long as I've been online. In that time the RST was created which prompted the RSA (iirc) being created by the club. Then a rift that seen people leave FF and the creation of other forums. Then the shit really hit the fan in 2012 and we seen the emergence of Rangers First and the RST trying to galvanise the support to save the club, that ultimately led to an amalgamation that so severely pissed off some fans (albeit a few) that they set up an alternative vehicle. We are now in a situation where thousands of fans have bought life memberships or contributed monthly into a group that they no longer even think about...

I'm sure in a parallel universe the Rangers support are one United front. Ours isn't it and experience has told me to accept that.

 

[Northampton_Loyalist]

We've been talking about facts of a well run supporter group having ownership of the club as long as I've been online. In that time the RST was created which prompted the RSA (iirc) being created by the club. Then a rift that seen people leave FF and the creation of other forums. Then the shit really hit the fan in 2012 and we seen the emergence of Rangers First and the RST trying to galvanise the support to save the club, that ultimately led to an amalgamation that so severely pissed off some fans (albeit a few) that they set up an alternative vehicle. We are now in a situation where thousands of fans have bought life memberships or contributed monthly into a group that they no longer even think about...

I'm sure in a parallel universe the Rangers support are one United front. Ours isn't it and experience has told me to accept that.

...ok...Not sure where you think we disagree on any of that.

It is a simple fact that any group of shareholders, if organised and if holding enough shares, can be a powerful group.

It is also a fact that our support is as wide ranging and free thinking as it is possible to be, and that other than in brief periods of duress, we have not been able provide a united front for any length of time. C1872 does not need to be all things to all people, it needs to be a well run and efficient group of shareholders that can bitch and fight all they want, but when their bargaining power is required, they have it at the press of a button. Personally I feel that a good part of where C1872 falls down is through trying to do too many things, too many projects, which leads to too few people having too many jobs, and crucially, accusations of not doing enough when some items are ignored in favour of others.

I feel that if it streamlined what is was doing, focused on one or perhaps 2 additional functions and that was it, it would simplify it's job and increase it's appeal to the target audience.

 

[Alan_Morton]

...ok...Not sure where you think we disagree on any of that.

It is a simple fact that any group of shareholders, if organised and if holding enough shares, can be a powerful group.

It is also a fact that our support is as wide ranging and free thinking as it is possible to be, and that other than in brief periods of duress, we have not been able provide a united front for any length of time. C1872 does not need to be all things to all people, it needs to be a well run and efficient group of shareholders that can bitch and fight all they want, but when their bargaining power is required, they have it at the press of a button. Personally I feel that a good part of where C1872 falls down is through trying to do too many things, too many projects, which leads to too few people having too many jobs, and crucially, accusations of not doing enough when some items are ignored in favour of others.

I feel that if it streamlined what is was doing, focused on one or perhaps 2 additional functions and that was it, it would simplify it's job and increase it's appeal to the target audience.

Don't think we disagree on too much either other than the fact I've accepted C1872 is unsalvageable and a bit of a waste of time now other than you thinking it could be a force for good going forwards.

I'd much rather any money I spend on the club going directly to the club. Be it through the shares scheme the club have launched or simply buying merchandise or an RTV subscription.

I'm not bothered about the money I put into the RST, Rangers First or C1872. I done it in good faith and it did at time provide a pivotal role. I just don't see a way forward for it.