Taking the knee

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G20G72Bear said:
Show racism the red card never worked?

What about players like wilf zaha who disagree with the knee gesture? Are they wrong? Is he racist because my opinion mirrors mine exactly
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It's evidently not been working over a period of time no.

I find your second point silly, hate when people build a point like that.

Someone who will take a bit of this point, and then add it to this other bit which is a bit redundant, then they take what someone else who isn't involved in the conversation had said and just pile it all into some weirdo bastardised point to argue against a point no one has even remotely made.
 
B Ferguson 6 said:
If the people booing it are genuinely doing it because their so against the BLM movement then they should maybe mobilise themselves against the organisation in a better way than booing a team of Rangers players that because of what they’ve done will be legends forever.

I imagine if you look about the people booing on Saturday you’ll see the same ones doing the “red hand salute” when rule Britannia gets sung.
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I had better not get started on the red hand salute morons....
 
Murray the Bear said:
Why do folk with the more right wing opinions always seem to think they represent the majority ? A quick scan of this thread would suggest otherwise. By far the most reasonable and intelligent posts back the players though some sadly are giving up the will to live. The England fans who booed their players at the Euros were widely condemned across the UK and that was and remains the popular position. Have our booers learned nothing from that experience?
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The minority shout louder. Some of the posters on here need to take a breath.
 
G20G72Bear said:
Show me some then. Show me some evidence of this being a widely known gesture in pop culture in the 90s and 00s. I'll be interested to see.
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I'm not your Da mate.

Educating you isn't on me.

Your now just one of those 'DEBATE ME! DEBATE ME!' cretins that you see on social media.

Educate yourself, or don't.

In the meantime your 'white guy telling black people how to protest racism' schtick is getting old and slightly questionable.
 
Macdonsj said:
nobody can say for sure if every booing person is a racist

but 100% of them are painting the club in a bad light
and will damage the public image of the club
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True, but by booing what is widely accepted and regarded as a gesture in solidarity with an anti-racism message, people are then anti-anti-racism which makes them pro-racism
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
So he's racist against his own race? B-)
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He'd be every bit of a selfish, disrespectful prick as any other race that boos it.

The players aren't asking the fans to do it with them and they aren't asking everyone to agree with them. All they want I'm sure is for us as supporters to show them enough respect to quietly observe and keep our own thoughts to ourselves.

Anyone that boos our own players is an absolute scumbag especially after everything they went through after Slavia.
 
Bluenose1979 said:
People are clearly talking about racist attitudes, pointing out the ongoing racism our players endure and specifically the aims of the players choosing to take the knee.

The barrier to it making a difference appears to be people doing everything in their power to deflect the specified message our own players have stated they are sending with the gesture in order to conflate things and attach it to something else in order to villify it or subdue the message they are openly trying to send.

When folk on here, having been repeatedly shown the quotes from our players on why they are doing it, still persist with putting it down because of how they want to keep it pinned to a more controversial movement specifically in order to argue it shouldn't be supported then I think the problem is quite obviously with what folk want this debate to be about and not what it should be about. That's a choice, not something inflicted on them.

Debate about the best way to tackle racism can be had, but it's not exclusive nor need it be exclusive to opening eyes to the bottom line.

Our players take the knee in the name of racial equality alone and in order to continue to highlight the problem - that's it, nothing else. We can support them in that while the other debates around how we tackle it go on or not.
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The barrier to people taking notice is the gesture agreed, but that's not people attaching a different meaning to a gesture, that's the players using a gesture that's attached to another meaning.

Think about it, what's easier for the likes of sturgeon, starmer, Johnson etc, deal with actual issues or gain some positive soundbites by condeming people who booed the gesture? That costs him nothing and is an easy tick in the win box. It also achieves absolutely nothing.

We all know why the players are doing it. No one is suggesting goldson or aribo have any interest in politics ffs, everyone using this strawman loses any credibility. The players simply have to realise the association of the symbol and change it. Because all it does is give newspapers, radio phone ins, the Jim whytes and politicians all the grievance clickbait they want and it achieves absolutely nothing to help the players cause.

It depends what want from all this stuff. I don't like any kind of stuff at the football other than football. But if it must be there, id rather it had a positive impact. All this is doing is providing people with opportunities to say how bad other people are.
 
TinyRick said:
True, but by booing what is widely accepted and regarded as a gesture in solidarity with an anti-racism message, people are then anti-anti-racism which makes them pro-racism
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i see that point
there could be people that take it as a BLM political stand and are against for non-racism reasons
hence, my thinking

how anyone can boo when we can literally field and entire outfield of black players including fan favourites & the club captain + vice-captain who delivered 55 is beyond me
 
If people are concerned at a narrative that suggests those booing taking the knee are racist, then that implies that it's because there is a fairly broad view that taking the knee is a stand against racism and those booing oppose that.

I would think that means that rather than needing to pontificate about different ways to highlight racism - which doesn't sound like it's the problem - those people should find more effective ways of clarifying their own stance that it is specifically the BLM movement they are opposed to.

Think most people tend to have a view that taking the knee is about racial inequality when players do it, rather than thinking they're doing it in support of extremist racial movements who are aiming to have us white men on dog leads in the future begging for our dinner.
 
B Ferguson 6 said:
If the people booing it are genuinely doing it because their so against the BLM movement then they should maybe mobilise themselves against the organisation in a better way than booing a team of Rangers players that because of what they’ve done will be legends forever.

I imagine if you look about the people booing on Saturday you’ll see the same ones doing the “red hand salute” when rule Britannia gets sung.
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Don't know about the red hand salute, I see most of the stadium doing it. I personally don't because of how easily it can be spun by agenda driven journos into being called a Nazi salute. I think it's a disgusting implication you've just made though "look at all the idiots booing, I bet they're scumbag racists who voted Brexit" etc that's effectively what you've said.

What way would they mobilise against BLM? Perhaps by gathering in George square to prevent war memorials being destroyed by them as they were all over the rest of the country?

Far right racists I think was the term used to describe rangers fans that day.
 
Teddyjohn said:
He'd be every bit of a selfish, disrespectful prick as any other race that boos it.

The players aren't asking the fans to do it with them and they aren't asking everyone to agree with them. All they want I'm sure is for us as supporters to show them enough respect to quietly observe and keep our own thoughts to ourselves.

Anyone that boos our own players is an absolute scumbag especially after everything they went through after Slavia.
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But it's either racist or it's not. There's no halfway with this.

Plenty of people of all skin colours and creeds despise the wider BLM movement. The players have told the fans it's nothing to do with the wider BLM movement and I totally believe them but you can't tell other people what to think and you can't say to people that a certain gesture is only linked with the good bit of the movement. That's what happens when you bring politics into football.
 
G20G72Bear said:
The barrier to people taking notice is the gesture agreed, but that's not people attaching a different meaning to a gesture, that's the players using a gesture that's attached to another meaning.

Think about it, what's easier for the likes of sturgeon, starmer, Johnson etc, deal with actual issues or gain some positive soundbites by condeming people who booed the gesture? That costs him nothing and is an easy tick in the win box. It also achieves absolutely nothing.

We all know why the players are doing it. No one is suggesting goldson or aribo have any interest in politics ffs, everyone using this strawman loses any credibility. The players simply have to realise the association of the symbol and change it. Because all it does is give newspapers, radio phone ins, the Jim whytes and politicians all the grievance clickbait they want and it achieves absolutely nothing to help the players cause.

It depends what want from all this stuff. I don't like any kind of stuff at the football other than football. But if it must be there, id rather it had a positive impact. All this is doing is providing people with opportunities to say how bad other people are.
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This is a fairly self-defeating stance.

Everyone knows why they do it. Nobody thinks they're doing it for the interest in politics.

But they should change it because some folk are electing to continue to associate it with that just to dictate that they shouldn't do it?

Why is it generating clickbait? Because the general public are basing their views on the actual reason the players are taking the knee. Therefore opposing it sends an image that you oppose the message you know they are sending.
 
YoungGer97 said:
Which is why i said calling this take delusional would be an understatement, because its beyond delusional.

Anyway, is there any particular reason why 95% of your posts on FF ever have been on this thread?
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Because I joined FF last week after being a casual observer for years in the chance tickets for Madrid or brighton came up on the ticket office. (I got both in later releases).

Your reasoning for calling it delusional is no clearer. You've spoke for the sake of speaking here. Pointless
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
But it's either racist or it's not. There's no halfway with this.

Plenty of people of all skin colours and creeds despise the wider BLM movement.
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100% agree with you. Plenty of people do despise the wider BLM movement.

But what has been repeated ad nauseam is a boo on Saturday is not a boo against the BLM movement. You’re booing the Rangers players and players who have tried to explain many times that it is a gesture against racial inequality. It is not a show of support for an extreme organisation like BLM.

And if you don’t believe those players then for the love of God just stay quiet for 5 seconds rather than boo and create the inevitable PR disaster that would follow.
 
Even if you don’t agree with whatever reasoning you have applied to the gesture, I can’t understand why anyone would choose to boo it knowing how it would be portrayed by our media and bigoted politicians.

If you are planning to boo Rangers players making an anti-racist gesture then please consider giving up your season ticket and going to Celtic Park instead, where you can cheer on and chant for a convicted racist with impunity.

You won’t be booing ‘Marxists’, you’ll be booing Glen Kamara, James Tavernier, Alfredo Morelos, Connor Goldson, Jermaine Defoe, Calvin Bassey, Joe Aribo…
 
Teddyjohn said:
I don’t think disagreeing with it is racist in the slightest but if someone is that wound up by a 5 second gesture that our players have stated is to fight racism that they then boo their own players then that person can’t really complain when people call them racist themselves.
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Of course they can complain. They are booing to show the players their dislike of the gesture.

Like I've said a thousand times seemingly and this is a genuine question....

If against livi they change from kneeing to another gesture, do you think a single person would boo?

You know and I know there wouldn't be a solitary boo. So this whole casually calling people racist is as disingenuous as it is false.
 
TheMish said:
Because it's silly to have a different opinion on the gesture when players have literally explained the meaning behind them doing it....
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Many people born in Scotland who didn't vote for independence wont fly the saltire or support Scotland because it's linked with the SNP. The players clearly aren't political in any way, we even have 3 of our players in the squad.

Do we think those people who take this attitude are also stupid. Or is that symbolic association allowed? Just cos....
 
TheMish said:
Because it's silly to have a different opinion on the gesture when players have literally explained the meaning behind them doing it....
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I disagree with you.
What it represents to the wider world might be what I disagree with.
I wouldn't boo our own players, I do think that would be idiotic.
It could also be argued our players are behaving in an idiotic manner to continue to do something that many people the world over is a provocative action promoting violence and rioting?
Rio Loyal said:
We shouldn’t be booing our players at all but taking the knee should stop as it’s turned in to a pointless empty gesture.
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Exactly this.

I don't understand how you can say....
Red Hand Salutes are moronic. Because of what wider society thinks.
Booing player taking the knee is moronic because of what wider society thinks.
Yet in the same thread not say...
Our players coninuing to take the knee is stupid becuase of what wider society thinks.

I can't see the difference at all.

We shouldn't be booing our players regardless.
But they, with our help, should find a more suitable way to fight racism., than be seen to promote rioting and violence.
 
G20G72Bear said:
Because I joined FF last week after being a casual observer for years in the chance tickets for Madrid or brighton came up on the ticket office. (I got both in later releases).

Your reasoning for calling it delusional is no clearer. You've spoke for the sake of speaking here. Pointless
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Thats because its fairly obvious to anyone with a functioning brain, so im not going to sit and explain to those among us less gifted in that department how the club being publicly crucified and the support painted as racist neanderthals is a worse PR disaster than a handful of selfish knobs in the crowd getting angry at the players for political reasons is.
 
G20G72Bear said:
Of course they can complain. They are booing to show the players their dislike of the gesture.

Like I've said a thousand times seemingly and this is a genuine question....

If against livi they change from kneeing to another gesture, do you think a single person would boo?

You know and I know there wouldn't be a solitary boo. So this whole casually calling people racist is as disingenuous as it is false.
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would they boo another gesture - probably not, tho from the sounds of this thread a lot would tie it to something they felt they could boo

but the players have chosen this action
effectively what you are saying is "fight racism but do it in a way that i like"
which doesn't help at all
 
Macdonsj said:
nobody can say for sure if every booing person is a racist

but 100% of them are painting the club in a bad light
and will damage the public image of the club
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Agreed. It does paint the club in a bad light.

The players and management took a fantastic stance after Kamara was abused by kudela last year. This had a wide impact and really got the discussion going and brought a lot of people on board for the cause. They managed to do all this without taking the knee.

Wouldn't that be sensible, pragmatic and actually a very successful thing to do now to achieve the same impact?
 
G20G72Bear said:
Many people born in Scotland who didn't vote for independence wont fly the saltire or support Scotland because it's linked with the SNP. The players clearly aren't political in any way, we even have 3 of our players in the squad.

Do we think those people who take this attitude are also stupid. Or is that symbolic association allowed? Just cos....
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MightyGersLand! said:
I disagree with you.
What it represents to the wider world might be what I disagree with.
I wouldn't boo our own players, I do think that would be idiotic.
It could also be argued our players are behaving in an idiotic manner to continue to do something that many people the world over is a provocative action promoting violence and rioting?
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THEY.HAVE.EXPLAINED.WHY.THEY.DO.IT
 
Macdonsj said:
would they boo another gesture - probably not, tho from the sounds of this thread a lot would tie it to something they felt they could boo

but the players have chosen this action
effectively what you are saying is "fight racism but do it in a way that i like"
which doesn't help at all
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100% this.

White guys telling Black people how to protest against racism.

Unbelievable stuff.
 
B Ferguson 6 said:
If the people booing it are genuinely doing it because their so against the BLM movement then they should maybe mobilise themselves against the organisation in a better way than booing a team of Rangers players that because of what they’ve done will be legends forever.

I imagine if you look about the people booing on Saturday you’ll see the same ones doing the “red hand salute” when rule Britannia gets sung.
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Pedantic but the action of the red hand salute is different from the Nazi.
 
TheMish said:
It's evidently not been working over a period of time no.

I find your second point silly, hate when people build a point like that.

Someone who will take a bit of this point, and then add it to this other bit which is a bit redundant, then they take what someone else who isn't involved in the conversation had said and just pile it all into some weirdo bastardised point to argue against a point no one has even remotely made.
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Has taking the knee worked? Has highlighting every troll on social media worked? Or has it emboldened actual racists? I think the latter.

It's not a silly point. The implication from many on here is that if you disagree with taking the knee then you're racist. There are several prominent black players who've voiced their disagreement with taking the knee. So if those making snidey implications don't think players like zaha are racist, then why do they think others holding identical opinions are? It it because they are white?
 
G20G72Bear said:
Has taking the knee worked? Has highlighting every troll on social media worked? Or has it emboldened actual racists? I think the latter.

It's not a silly point. The implication from many on here is that if you disagree with taking the knee then you're racist. There are several prominent black players who've voiced their disagreement with taking the knee. So if those making snidey implications don't think players like zaha are racist, then why do they think others holding identical opinions are? It it because they are white?
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You are so disingenuous.
 
TheMish said:
THEY.HAVE.EXPLAINED.WHY.THEY.DO.IT
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I've seen 100 people explain why they boo, and 1,000 explain that the red hand is not a Nazi salute.
Doesn't make any of the 3 of them sensible ideas at Ibrox or any other football stadium.

Mainly because, the average person on the street worldwide, doesn't sit waiting for explanations from footballers or football fans.
Should I shout that at you? Or is hypocrisy your go to reaction?
 
RickDagless said:
I'm not your Da mate.

Educating you isn't on me.

Your now just one of those 'DEBATE ME! DEBATE ME!' cretins that you see on social media.

Educate yourself, or don't.

In the meantime your 'white guy telling black people how to protest racism' schtick is getting old and slightly questionable.
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Exactly. You don't have a clue and could find nothing. Otherwise why debate on here? Is it to convince others to your point or to virtue signal. You've made a claim, I don't think it's accurate, I've said show me if I'm wrong... "I'm no yer da mate". Brilliant.

Ah I was wondering when the whole white guy not allowed an opinion crap would come out. You've already lost.
 
Teddyjohn said:
On the previous thread yesterday, the guy who said our players are no better than Nazi’s saluting. The poster Islander earlier that went on rants about politics having nothing to do with football and therefore it was his right to boo it.
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We've also had a guy seriously saying BLM activists (or BLM Youth perhaps) are manipulating & then recruiting kids to their organisation by showing pics of footballers taking the knee.
 
G20G72Bear said:
Agreed. It does paint the club in a bad light.

The players and management took a fantastic stance after Kamara was abused by kudela last year. This had a wide impact and really got the discussion going and brought a lot of people on board for the cause. They managed to do all this without taking the knee.

Wouldn't that be sensible, pragmatic and actually a very successful thing to do now to achieve the same impact?
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the impact came from the club coming together, the entire structure & fans defending Glen and keeping it a talking point to drive home a message
Balogun commented that on the recent podcast he did

us standing was a talking point in any real sense for the 1st match after Slavia vs the Yahoos
after that it was a footnote


and you say later it emboldens racists
the racists will always abuse black players because its what they do
but now you are hearing about arrests, people are motivated to report them and see them into bother
and that is in part due to the taking of the knee being so publicised
 
G20G72Bear said:
Don't know about the red hand salute, I see most of the stadium doing it. I personally don't because of how easily it can be spun by agenda driven journos into being called a Nazi salute. I think it's a disgusting implication you've just made though "look at all the idiots booing, I bet they're scumbag racists who voted Brexit" etc that's effectively what you've said.

What way would they mobilise against BLM? Perhaps by gathering in George square to prevent war memorials being destroyed by them as they were all over the rest of the country?

Far right racists I think was the term used to describe rangers fans that day.
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You’re an absolute maniac.

Brexit ffs what a crank.
 
I do not like the concept of taking the knee because to me it is very much caught up in a political movement I fundamentally object to.

I will not boo our players for taking the knee because they have explained that to them it is about highlighting racism and not about support for a political movement.

I really do not find this difficult.
 
G20G72Bear said:
Exactly. You don't have a clue and could find nothing. Otherwise why debate on here? Is it to convince others to your point or to virtue signal. You've made a claim, I don't think it's accurate, I've said show me if I'm wrong... "I'm no yer da mate". Brilliant.

Ah I was wondering when the whole white guy not allowed an opinion crap would come out. You've already lost.
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You're allowed an opinion.

It has no value in a debate about how black people protest against racism.

Educate yourself.

I'm engaging in a debate whilst working, you'll forgive me for wanting you to do your own homework.
 
Macdonsj said:
the impact came from the club coming together, the entire structure & fans defending Glen and keeping it a talking point to drive home a message
Balogun commented that on the recent podcast he did

us standing was a talking point in any real sense for the 1st match after Slavia vs the Yahoos
after that it was a footnote


and you say later it emboldens racists
the racists will always abuse black players because its what they do
but now you are hearing about arrests, people are motivated to report them and see them into bother
and that is in part due to the taking of the knee being so publicised
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I listened to the balogun podcast and felt immense pride when he spoke about the club following this, as I did at the time with the way everyone came together. The fans reaction to that is partly why the racist implication which is being thrown about is angering me so much. Presumably those supporting Kamara didn't become racist over the summer.

The taking the knee has also became a footnote. In fact, the only thing keeping it relevant is fans being back in the stadium and booing it. At other clubs towards the end of last season the chat was about ending it because it's become routine rather than being impactful.

You are hearing about it because there's some nefarious agenda to paint the country as racist by those in the media. The abuse received by rashford etc after the Italy match was the key indicator of this. The media were loving it yet we didn't hear a peep about the fact that over 80% of them came from Asia and Africa. Why was that? It didn't fit the agenda.
 
G20G72Bear said:
Has taking the knee worked? Has highlighting every troll on social media worked? Or has it emboldened actual racists? I think the latter.

It's not a silly point. The implication from many on here is that if you disagree with taking the knee then you're racist. There are several prominent black players who've voiced their disagreement with taking the knee. So if those making snidey implications don't think players like zaha are racist, then why do they think others holding identical opinions are? It it because they are white?
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It's been done for about a year, I can't imagine many expected it to "work" in that amount of time to be honest.

I find the way you frame and questions a bit silly, you just latch bit chunks of different things on, it's a really convoluted way to have a conversation, you are making points against points I haven't even made, take it up with the folks who made them seems the simple suggestion, I am not going to speak on their behalf
 
RickDagless said:
You're allowed an opinion.

It has no value in a debate about how black people protest against racism.

Educate yourself.

I'm engaging in a debate whilst working, you'll forgive me for wanting you to do your own homework.
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Educate myself?

How would I do that, by saying I'm white and have no clue about the impact of certain campaigns? Should black people never be questioned, given feedback or criticism because they're black?

I think I'll avoid that education thanks, sounds a bit regressive.

No rush, feel free to send the countless examples of the knee being taken later on.
 
G20G72Bear said:
Or do you not have a comeback?

I wonder
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"It's not a silly point. The implication from many on here is that if you disagree with taking the knee then you're racist. There are several prominent black players who've voiced their disagreement with taking the knee. So if those making snidey implications don't think players like zaha are racist, then why do they think others holding identical opinions are? It it because they are white?" - G20G72Bear

- I'm not saying you are a racist for disagreeing with taking the knee. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

- The prominent black players you mention aren't booing others for taking the knee. I also doubt most of them will be at Ibrox on Saturday.

- Zaha is clearly not racist. No one has implied this. This is you being disingenuous.

- And on issues like this? Yes, your opinion absolutely is less important than that of the people facing racism. That this has to be explained to you in embarrassing.
 
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