Taking the knee

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How do you overcome those who object to "having politics rammed down their throat when they just want to watch the football"? or who say "this doesn't belong in a football stadium"?
You have to accept that Slavia Prague brought racism into our stadium and onto our agenda. This isn’t ramming politics down anyone’s throat it is showing we do not support racism and any racial abuse of our players. Absolutely nothing more than that.
 
You have to accept that Slavia Prague brought racism into our stadium and onto our agenda. This isn’t ramming politics down anyone’s throat it is showing we do not support racism and any racial abuse of our players. Absolutely nothing more than that.
I completely agree, I was more referring to the notion some have of "finding an alternative gesture" that everyone can get behind.

My point is just that such a thing is nigh on impossible to identify. Either it is something that is missed/ignored altogether hence has no value in keeping the subject in discussion, it is another gesture that folk either don't like the connotations of or you have the element who object to the very topic being brought into the stadium (ignoring your very valid point above).
 
I dont think we are a racist crowd ive not heard any racism in Ibrox since the 90s.

19th Century Terrorists are not a race before someone again gleefully brings up UEFA doing us for racism!

i'd agree that we aren't by definition a racist support
same as every club there will be some in amongst 50,000+
but they are largely silent

i once had a scumbag sitting next to me that used a racial slur against one of ours - he was politely told where to go
a massively isolated incident

but the booing of taking the knees is simply seen as being racist - you might be booing BLM or politics or whatever - the perception is racism
all it does is damage the public perception of the club and angers/upsets/outrages the players
 
Kick it out/SRTRC was a once a year, largely ignored gesture that gets little media coverage, less TV coverage at the game

at least half our stadium is either outside or in the concourse during that display
so what, did you hear any booing?
 
Thread's an embarrassment.
Posters continue to conflate the BLM political movement (almost irrelevant in the UK) with the stance our players are taking against racism.
Anyone continuing to imply that this gesture symbolizes support of a Marxist movement is beyond understanding, and any Rangers fan booing our players should not be welcome at Ibrox.
Give it a rest FFS.
 
Loads of fans of English clubs have boo'ed the taking of the knee so what damage has it caused them? Have they lost Sky money? Shirt sponsor dropped them? What is the damage you speak of?
The reputational damage would be huge. We have just won our first title in a decade and we’re the main event on Sky Sports tomorrow. To boo those players after everything they have achieved for us would be an embarrassment and would be headline news.

We’re also trying to convince the likes of Connor Goldson and Glen Kamara to commit their futures to the club. Both players are on record as stating how it hurts them when people criticise them for taking a stand against this.

Balogun and Goldson have also spoken publicly about how proud they are that the Rangers board and Steven Gerrard have pledged their full support behind them. No ifs or buts, the boss and the directors are supporting the players and respecting their wishes. It would be utterly shameful if Rangers supporters couldn’t do the same thing.

Anyone with half a brain can tell how absolutely nothing positive can come from booing the players over this and it will only cause damage.
 
I see some people are still not getting this so let’s make it simple.

1.
If you disagree with some of the political aspects of the BLM ORGANISATION - Absolutely fine, I do too. Probably a discussion for another forum though.

2.
If you think players taking the knee is somehow connected to the above - You are mistaken and should go read what black players/pundits/celebrities have said about this.

3.
If after all that, you still think there is a connection between the two - You are either a moron or wilfully ignorant and should have a real think about your pre-conceived biases and morals.

4.
If you boo (or defend those booing) the players taking a knee - You are a racist. No ifs, no buts, you are a racist.

Well said. The above should be made a sticky and the rest of the discussion binned.
 
Thread's an embarrassment.
Posters continue to conflate the BLM political movement (almost irrelevant in the UK) with the stance our players are taking against racism.
Anyone continuing to imply that this gesture symbolizes support of a Marxist movement is beyond understanding, and any Rangers fan booing our players should not be welcome at Ibrox.
Give it a rest FFS.

they cannot separate the BLM organisation and blacklivesmatter message
you can support the latter while being critical of the former
 
I wonder if there have been any discussions within the club or among the players about this. I only seen the games on TV but I assume the players will have heard any boos in the ground. How do they decide what they want to do in the first place? A show of hands? Captains/ managers decision? Just interested in the dynamics of it all.

PS. Don't boo.
 
I appreciate the considered response rather than the mud slinging and baseless accusations by others.

Here's my best take on it. When it became obvious that BLM were toxic, there quickly became "brand separation" (for lack of a better term) so as not to tarnish the movement with the toxicity of BLM. Fantastic, the correct strategy from a PR point of view. However they kept the knee gesture. Now we can argue the semantics of how it started, that BLM hijacked it etc, all of which are very valid claims. But what is another valid claim is the knee is now synonymous with BLM as, before 2016 when supporters of BLM used it, it wasn't seen in pop culture, or at least hadn't been seen in decades. Certainly not in my lifetime anyway (80s child).

So the movement in football to effect social change ditched everything to do with BLM except what was arguably the most recognisable gesture. That is a mistake. The players can distance themselves from BLM as much as they like, they are still using a gesture which is seen by many as toxic. The problem is now both sides have become entrenched which is causing more division and dilluting the whole point of the gesture. So there's two possible best case scenarios going forward....

Best case if the kneeing continues: the people booing stop doing it but are raging inside that the gesture is still being used. No one booing currently is going to change their opinion on the knee, it's naive to think so. It will continue to be a divisive gesture.

Best case if the kneeing changes to a different gesture: the people booing start applauding and get behind the movement. All the distractions of booing and explaining why they're kneeing can end and then the actual issues become the topic of discussion.

If you truly want to get behind the players in this, which is the most desirable outcome?
Again, as the poster you quoted said, you are both correct in your appraisal while simultaneously missing the point.

We don't get to decide what form the protest takes. If it makes people uncomfortable, that's the idea.
 
This is exactly my view on it. I do think that taking the knee has lost all meaning and I don’t quite understand why the players have went from standing against it after the Kamara incident to reverting back to the knee but no one should be booing.

Anyone booing our own players just proves further that there are sections of our support who care more about their bigoted views than they do about our Club, its name or our players. Them taking the knee is harming you in no way, booing is harmful in many ways. It’s that simple but then again so are some of the ‘fans’ who follow Rangers.

I think it’s fair to have an opinion on whether taking the knee is the best way to get the message across. However, for me as a white Glaswegian male, I have to be honest and say I have absolutely no authority on the subject as I have not, and will never be on the receiving end of the kind of racist abuse Black and other minority communities have had to suffer.

As such, I will follow the lead of those who have lived these experiences. Whether they decide taking the knee is the best approach, or whether they decide to try something else, I will stand behind them 100%.
 
I see some people are still not getting this so let’s make it simple.

1.
If you disagree with some of the political aspects of the BLM ORGANISATION - Absolutely fine, I do too. Probably a discussion for another forum though.

2.
If you think players taking the knee is somehow connected to the above - You are mistaken and should go read what black players/pundits/celebrities have said about this.

3.
If after all that, you still think there is a connection between the two - You are either a moron or wilfully ignorant and should have a real think about your pre-conceived biases and morals.

4.
If you boo (or defend those booing) the players taking a knee - You are a racist. No ifs, no buts, you are a racist.
Of course it's connected to it, why do you think (all of a sudden) the BLM side of it was dropped? Go and do some research before posting your grandstanding pish.
 
Colchester Utd offered to refund the ST of any supporter who felt they couldn't watch their players take the knee without booing. I could certainly live with that approach. There will be no shortage of fans wanting to snap up the tickets of the boo-boys, and a better atmosphere for all of us.
 
Colchester Utd offered to refund the ST of any supporter who felt they couldn't watch their players take the knee without booing. I could certainly live with that approach. There will be no shortage of fans wanting to snap up the tickets of the boo-boys, and a better atmosphere for all of us.
have to say Billy my lad, it does not surprise me that you think that obviously terrible, unworkable, incendiary idea is a good one.
 
Again, as the poster you quoted said, you are both correct in your appraisal while simultaneously missing the point.

We don't get to decide what form the protest takes. If it makes people uncomfortable, that's the idea.
Well that's unnecessarily divisive then. So what's the point?

It's not meant to make people uncomfortable, it's meant to cause people to empathize with the players. They can't do that if they are offended at the gesture.

It's a daft circular logic going on here. To effect change you need allies and even more importantly you need the topic to be in the limelight. The knee achieves none of this. It alienates people who would otherwise be allies and creates side talking points allowing those who can implement change to shirk responsibility by responding to the side arguement.
 
rather than idiots, maybe they are adults who care more about the harmful implications of that particular gesture than indulging privileged young lads who they consider have made a poor choice of expression for their noble message

when they get racially abused the way these "privileged" lad are
then they get a say in how they show defiance to racism
 
rather than idiots, maybe they are adults who care more about the harmful implications of that particular gesture than indulging privileged young lads who they consider have made a poor choice of expression for their noble message
"I say old chap, it's about time we articulated our feelings to these priviliged young lads about the potentially harmful implications of the particular gesture they have chosen to express their noble message about anti-racism!"
"Quite right young man, quite right!"
"Wonderful. Altogether then... BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
 
Thread's an embarrassment.
Posters continue to conflate the BLM political movement (almost irrelevant in the UK) with the stance our players are taking against racism.
Anyone continuing to imply that this gesture symbolizes support of a Marxist movement is beyond understanding, and any Rangers fan booing our players should not be welcome at Ibrox.
Give it a rest FFS.
Players jumped on this when it kicked off in the USA after George Floyd was murdered & the BLM were seen as ‘trendy’ but the the truth about them soon came out especially after we had a summer of their appalling activity. If you are going to jump on a bandwagon make sure you know where it’s going.

However players in general (Gareth Southgate also) stuck with it & are trying to legitimise & shoehorn it by saying it doesn’t represent or mean what it did last year.

I doubt anyone is accusing players of being Marxist either but by adopting the BLM’s name, gesture & slogan it’s a very powerful boost for the cranks.

Put simply you can’t just pick & choose what park of the BLM antics you want & then tell people what they mean (& if they don’t back it they are racist)

I also find it insane that I have to caveat that by saying I hate racism.
 
neither is taking the knee if you don’t want to be associated with BLM.
Well, I'd say they're less doing it to avoid being associated with BLM extremists and more to highlight ongoing racial inequality and to ensure it remains something that people discuss. Which it quite evidently does.
 
but the booing of taking the knees is simply seen as being racist - you might be booing BLM or politics or whatever - the perception is racism
all it does is damage the public perception of the club and angers/upsets/outrages the players
So taking the knee is a lose lose situation as it's seen as a BLM gesture and your seen as a racist if you boo it.

A different gesture should be found one that has zero to do with BLM and one that no one will have an issue with to boo.
 
"I say old chap, it's about time we articulated our feelings to these priviliged young lads about the potentially harmful implications of the particular gesture they have chosen to express their noble message about anti-racism!"
"Quite right young man, quite right!"
"Wonderful. Altogether then... BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
just racists then? I guess if that makes life easier to understand for you then good luck and god save the rest of us, because if that attitude takes over (as it seems to be) then we’re heading for very dark times
 
Well that's unnecessarily divisive then. So what's the point?

It's not meant to make people uncomfortable, it's meant to cause people to empathize with the players. They can't do that if they are offended at the gesture.

It's a daft circular logic going on here. To effect change you need allies and even more importantly you need the topic to be in the limelight. The knee achieves none of this. It alienates people who would otherwise be allies and creates side talking points allowing those who can implement change to shirk responsibility by responding to the side arguement.
Why does it alienate people though? What great tragedy is occurring by 22 young men kneeling on grass for 5 seconds that it can't pass without comment by supporters in stadia?
 
Well that's unnecessarily divisive then. So what's the point?

It's not meant to make people uncomfortable, it's meant to cause people to empathize with the players. They can't do that if they are offended at the gesture.

It's a daft circular logic going on here. To effect change you need allies and even more importantly you need the topic to be in the limelight. The knee achieves none of this. It alienates people who would otherwise be allies and creates side talking points allowing those who can implement change to shirk responsibility by responding to the side arguement.
They do have allies. Thousands of them. The majority of the support will back them. You may not like it but your post suggests the Rangers support are unanimously against them which even a cursory reading of this thread will tell you isn't the case.
 
I'm all for folk constructively trying to find the most productive and shared way to tackle the issue.

I'm quite cynical about the chances of getting one that doesn't have people calling it out under any of the kinds of reasons being thrown at taking the knee. There's not even a consensus on why folk don't agree with it.

I'm interested to hear what folk think could replace it that would actually be universally accepted without any dissent, because if there's dissent/disagreement about any of those suggestions they presumably have to be stopped as well because we can't just ignore the divisiveness of the next gesture.

All the while, we have players who simply want to keep the topic highlighted via a simple, peaceful and non-disruptive gesture who are meant to ditch it to suit folk who don't want them to do it.
There is no gesture which will make these people happy - it is just a lie that they want the players to express it in a different way to try and muddy the waters. What they want is for the players to do nothing, and I don't know why they don't just come out and say that.
 
Players jumped on this when it kicked off in the USA after George Floyd was murdered & the BLM were seen as ‘trendy’ but the the truth about them soon came out especially after we had a summer of their appalling activity. If you are going to jump on a bandwagon make sure you know where it’s going.

However the players stuck with it & are trying to legitimise & shoehorn it by saying it doesn’t represent or mean what it did last year.

I doubt anyone is accusing players of being Marxist either but by adopting the BLM’s name, gesture & slogan it’s a very powerful boost for the cranks.

Put simply you can’t just pick & choose what park of the BLM antics you want & then tell people what they mean (& if they don’t back it they are racist)

I also find it insane that I have to cravat that by saying I hate racism.

Spiffing argument old chap! :)
I live in the USA and don't associate taking the knee with any Marxist movement.
Since Kaepernick started doing it, it's quite clear that athletes the World over are using their platform to highlight the systemic racism that pervades the US & most societies.
Most athletes are capitalists, the Marxist movement argument is just b/s tbh, used by people who don't believe there's racial injustice in our society, OR don't want it addressed.
 
There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't all get behind whatever anti-racist gesture the players wish to make, including taking the knee, if that's what they want to do. If footballers say taking the knee has nothing to do with any organization, I am happy to take them at face value. Most people in the UK nowadays, most people I know, don't give BLM a second thought. A minority actively support them, and another minority are obsessively opposed to it - the latter, for reasons that defy all logic, are willing to tarnish their club and shame its players by booing them before kick off.

I'm not sure why you are quoting me for your reply.
 
The PLG movement was definitely divisive.
gers1.jpg

:))
 
There was no ambiguity over the boos towards Le Guen. The fans booed to voice their displeasure at the pitiful performance of his Rangers side. It literally couldn't be perceived any other way.

What happens if there are boos tomorrow? How will it be perceived?
It’ll be interpreted the same way as it is in this thread, depending on your prior beliefs. It’s a totally intractable culture war issue with zero good faith in understanding the other point of view.

I think the players are making a mistake, not in their desire to show revulsion to racism, but in their method. I also don’t believe they’re golden gods who should be protected from reasonable criticism of that (a boo is the only reasonable option in the moment). If it makes people feel better to assume that’s intentionally enabling racism or even IS outright racism, then…fill your boot I guess. I don’t believe it is
 
Spiffing argument old chap! :)
I live in the USA and don't associate taking the knee with any Marxist movement.
Since Kaepernick started doing it, it's quite clear that athletes the World over are using their platform to highlight the systemic racism that pervades the US & most societies.
Most athletes are capitalists, the Marxist movement argument is just b/s tbh, used by people who don't believe there's racial injustice in our society, OR don't want it addressed.
Fair enough. After last summer’s nonsense though the BLM (Marxist) are not particularly popular.
 
BLM as a movement and BLM as a message are entirely different things. BLM (the movement) didn't come up with the idea of kneeling. When the TV companies were displaying BLM messages, they weren't giving free advertising to the organisation.

Goldson, Bassey, Tav, Balogun, Aribo, Kamara, Roofe, Morelos, Defoe, Sakala (apologies if I've missed out any black/mixed race players). Do you think these guys are kneeling because they want marxism to overthrow capitalist society and so are promoting BLM (the organisation)? Or do you think they're promoting the message that black lives matter in hopes that white folk will stop wildly racially abusing them at every turn?
They are not different things and it is free advertising. BLM don't give a toss about black lives. That's been proven time and again. Kneeling only pays homage to these rats. I am totally against the knee for too many reasons to write here. I think Rangers do more with their own welcoming message than the knee ever will. There is so much more that could be done without a nod to BLM. All that being said I would never boo the players ever, never mind for the gesture of the knee. I firmly believe that politics, left and right, white and black divisive virtue signaling has no place in sports, period. Especially for me at Rangers. Sports and football in particular was always an escape from this garbage. Let's get back to concentrating on football, zero politics and find new innovative ways to deliver a message of inclusiveness and racial issues.
 
Fair enough. After last summer’s nonsense though the BLM (Marxist) are not particularly popular.

They're pretty irrelevant tbh mate.
The US will always be right of Europe and I couldn't tell you anything about BLM, other than one of their leaders had to quit after being unable to explain a large amount of recently accumulated wealth. Not very Marxist !
 
It's probably linked to the density of racist lowlifes tbqfh.
ah, when the logic isn’t working out for you, reach for plan B. Call them racists, but - crucially! - thick racists who sometimes miss when a big anti-racism campaign thing is happening right in front of them, talking about stopping racism etc because they’re too thick to realise and forget to boo
 
I see it the other way about. A small minority of objectors want to conflate the gesture with the BLM political movement.
That's their problem, it's been explained multiple times, so if they have an issue with it, just stay quiet, or stay away from Ibrox. That would be my logic on the matter, reasonable I think?
This really should be the final word on this thread which is now reading a bit like Groundhog Day.
Far too many on here who are too willing to “conflate” any challenge to the status quo/ establishment with “ Marxism”

Cold War finished in 1989 chaps. We won
 
I believe they think what they are doing will make some kind of difference. In my opinion it won't.
Ending slavery never ended racism.
Mandela and all his actions never ended racism.
Giving black people the vote in USA never ended racism.
Martin Luther King never ended racism.
Every football team taking the knee also never stopes racism.

All a pure waste of time man. They should all have listened to the (white) mental cases on here to get their direction for that one thing to end racism. Sadly none of you ever tell the rest of us what it ism we earlgerky await your advice. So far it seems to simply be "do nothing or boo what others do".
 
It's a small minority who simply refuse to take the players at face value when they say it has nothing to do with BLM and is simply a gesture they are adopting to promote racial equality. It is pig-headed beyond belief. At best even.
in turn players could help by not using the gesture that BLM popularised 12 months ago. right around the time when they started using it?

That point must register somewhere in there, right?
 
It's a small minority who simply refuse to take the players at face value when they say it has nothing to do with BLM and is simply a gesture they are adopting to promote racial equality. It is pig-headed beyond belief. At best even.
People's heads would explode if they went to a Buddhist monastery or Hindu temple and saw the swastikas everywhere. They must be promoting nazism right? Or, they're just continuing to use a symbol they'd been using plenty long before it was hijacked by a more nefarious organisation and that the use of a symbol can justifiably be context dependent.
 
I don't see why they can't just stick to the 'SHOW RACISM THE RED CARD' campaign. As fa r as I'm aware, nobody had any issues with that.
It's like when timmy had to adopt the minutes applause because their trash element couldn't keep quiet for 60 seconds. That was well received on here.

"Yeah we'll show respect, but only on our terms"
 
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