Article ‘The Rise and Decline (?) of Anti-Catholicism in Scotland’

mdingwall said:
Call me an oddballl - but I like facts.
I’ve never seen much evidence that for the first 30 years or so there were any Catholic players on the books - then we had a wee flurry of them for a very short time.
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There were no Roman Catholics at my primary school. Does that mean its was a Protestant school?

Im interested in your view on this Mark.
 
mdingwall said:
John Ogilvie wasn’t executed because he was a Catholic.

He was a Jesuit priest who entered Scotland in disguise and under a false name. He then attempted to enter the King’s company - he was a spy and widely believed to be a potential assassin.
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So they made him a saint and named a school after him. How very ecumenical.
 
Carson's Cat said:
Excellent article and I wish I'd been able to attend. I've said on here before that Anti Catholic discrimination has been great exaggerated and, in fact, the way that we Presbyterian Scots treated a large influx of immigrants of a different culture was exemplary: We housed, clothed and fed them and gave them employment.

This was the right thing to do and, knowing what I know now, I'd still advocate the same action. We were absolutely the best of neighbours and we had the right approach.

What sticks in my craw is that we're, somehow, now being made out to be the bad guys by the more lunatic fringe and that to declare yourself a Protestant and Unionist in Scotland is like carrying a leper's bell.

This is a phenomenon of the last 20 years and one I'd love Tam Devine, Steve Bruce et al to give some consideration to.
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A great point.
The lunatic fringe that you refer to are often the same ones who throw about the "soup taker" slur at people of their own faith who dont share their viewpoint.
I cant understand these folk at all. RC in my work who is very vocal in his skewed opinion of RC&Irish discrimination&oppression in Scotland, anti British sentiment etc but then uses a slur that is derived from people of his own faith, that accepted the hospitality that he claims has never existed....?
Strikes me as a confused individual with a fair bit of hatred in him. He's not alone.
 
mdingwall said:
Call me an oddballl - but I like facts.
I’ve never seen much evidence that for the first 30 years or so there were any Catholic players on the books - then we had a wee flurry of them for a very short time.
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Rangers had players on their books as early as 1878 from what I've read previously.

A good number even before that kiddie on club like no other was formed a good 10 years.

You can draw your own conclusions & even without going into different decades later we still employed those players in those latter decades so again blows the Souness shite oot the windae leaving the turnaround question as to they were formed purely on a single religious basis when social conditions for most ordinary Indigenous Scots was no better in the workplace or in society as a whole.

They'll try & use any situation to justify their blatant sectarian beginnings dreamed up by an Institution which is filled with holes & lies but seeks then like now to apportion blame tactics by mud slinging it's what they've always done.

I've got a list somewhere I'll post it up.
 
I see absolutely nothing wrong with being anti that vile organisation , whether voicing that opinion at the football is ok is another matter.
 
chosen few said:
I see absolutely nothing wrong with being anti that vile organisation , whether voicing that opinion at the football is ok is another matter.
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When that entity has sought to subvert their own existence to then subvert Scotland then damn right they should be called out for the hypocrites that they are.

After all that entity sees itself as a foreign institution which is lie #1 & so it goes on into the present day.


The sheer antagonism of their existence has been fostered by the real bigots within that church from the start & wholly accepted as fact by their supporters as one entity all wrapped up in an Irish Republican Ideology
 
I read another study regarding " The Suicide of Western Europe" will need to try and find it, it was giving the insight into how followers of Islam where converting Christians and also non-religious minded to follow the teachings of the Qur'an
 
billyboyblue said:
A great point.
The lunatic fringe that you refer to are often the same ones who throw about the "soup taker" slur at people of their own faith who dont share their viewpoint.
I cant understand these folk at all. RC in my work who is very vocal in his skewed opinion of RC&Irish discrimination&oppression in Scotland, anti British sentiment etc but then uses a slur that is derived from people of his own faith, that accepted the hospitality that he claims has never existed....?
Strikes me as a confused individual with a fair bit of hatred in him. He's not alone.
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Yet we all know that the whole impetus behind Celtic was not to feed the poor but to stop them from taking Protestant soup.
 
What exactly made us a protestant club? I've always assumed it was because the people who formed us were protestants. Wasn't the vast majority of people in 1872 Scotland prods? Are all the other clubs from that time protestant clubs? Why are we different from Kilmarnock? Falkirk. Motherwell?
 
I think a lot of degerates want to hide behind the label Irish or Catholic. This problems seems to be isolated to the U.K. when you confront them about degenerate behavior they try to say it’s bigotry. Being an idiot is not a protected class. I am an American and we have zero issues with Catholics or Irish. I believe the problem in the British Isles is they put out the bat signal for low lives to hide behind saying they are Irish or Catholic. There is a reason that actual Irish Catholics usally would not touch these plastic Irishmen with a 10 ft pole.
 
Interesting read Mark. I remain anti Catholic, and strongly believe in sight right to be so.
 
Big Hepy said:
What exactly made us a protestant club? I've always assumed it was because the people who formed us were protestants. Wasn't the vast majority of people in 1872 Scotland prods? Are all the other clubs from that time protestant clubs? Why are we different from Kilmarnock? Falkirk. Motherwell?
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The clubs you you mention were formed to represent their towns.
If you are looking for clubs who were formed to represent a religious community, then I think you will find that the only existing ones are Celtc, Embra Hibs and Dundee Hibs. They were exclusively RC when they started.
There was no religious signifigance at Rangers in the 19th century. Rangers perhaps became protestant by default, since the 3 sectarian clubs in the major population centres of the country, would have first choice of players for that community. It is not difficult to understand that Rangers would have little interest in signing the 4th best player, in any position, from a community which represented such a small(16%ish) section of the population.

PS Pat Lafferty played for Rangers in 1886 before Celtc were formed.
 
Tim Hunter said:
The clubs you you mention were formed to represent their towns.
If you are looking for clubs who were formed to represent a religious community, then I think you will find that the only existing ones are Celtc, Embra Hibs and Dundee Hibs. They were exclusively RC when they started.
There was no religious signifigance at Rangers in the 19th century. Rangers perhaps became protestant by default, since the 3 sectarian clubs in the major population centres of the country, would have first choice of players for that community. It is not difficult to understand that Rangers would have little interest in signing the 4th best player, in any position, from a community which represented such a small(16%ish) section of the population.

PS Pat Lafferty played for Rangers in 1886 before Celtc were formed.
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Excellent post.
 
Tim Hunter said:
The clubs you you mention were formed to represent their towns.
If you are looking for clubs who were formed to represent a religious community, then I think you will find that the only existing ones are Celtc, Embra Hibs and Dundee Hibs. They were exclusively RC when they started.
There was no religious significance at Rangers in the 19th century. Rangers perhaps became protestant by default, since the 3 sectarian clubs in the major population centres of the country, would have first choice of players for that community. It is not difficult to understand that Rangers would have little interest in signing the 4th best player, in any position, from a community which represented such a small(16%ish) section of the population.

PS Pat Lafferty played for Rangers in 1886 before Celtic were formed.
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Very much agree with this.

Our club would have drawn it's support and players simply from the Greater Glasgow population, which would at that time have been, and still is, overwhelmingly protestant. Therefore, it would be inevitable that the vast majority of our fans and players would be protestant, if not almost all.

Of course, when a sectarian club was then formed in our city, it may then have nudged us more in the direction of being a "protestant club", in direct response and as a differentiator to their club being formed as being overtly for Roman Catholics only.

In any event, the formation of sectarian clubs in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee was the beginning of sectarianism in Scottish football. The causes start there.

As for today, your excellent article, Mark, shows that any claims of disadvantage coming from the Roman Catholic community in Scotland are now nothing more than a thinly veiled smoke screen behind which those wailing seek to gain further advantage for their community. There is, as your article and this debate clearly shows, absolutely no evidence of Irish descendant Roman Catholics having suffered any significant disadvantage in Scotland now or in the past. On the contrary, they have been welcomed and have enjoyed significant advances through their time spent in a mainly protestant country with a strong focus on education and work as the means of advancement.
 
mdingwall said:


‘The Rise and Decline (?) of Anti-Catholicism in Scotland’ https://www.followfollow.com/the-rise-and-decline-of-anti-catholicism-in-scotland/
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A very interesting and well written article Mark. I heard Professor Devine interviewed on Radio Scotland a couple of months ago and he was dismissing, and laughing at, the notion of anti-Irish / Catholic sectarianism being a "thing" in modern day Scotland. He pretty much said that it is highlighted by the media in a disproportionate and sensationalist way.
 
Arminius said:
Very much agree with this.

Our club would have drawn it's support and players simply from the Greater Glasgow population, which would at that time have been, and still is, overwhelmingly protestant. Therefore, it would be inevitable that the vast majority of our fans and players would be protestant, if not almost all.

Of course, when a sectarian club was then formed in our city, it may then have nudged us more in the direction of being a "protestant club", in direct response and as a differentiator to their club being formed as being overtly for Roman Catholics only.

In any event, the formation of sectarian clubs in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee was the beginning of sectarianism in Scottish football. The causes start there.

As for today, your excellent article, Mark, shows that any claims of disadvantage coming from the Roman Catholic community in Scotland are now nothing more than a thinly veiled smoke screen behind which those wailing seek to gain further advantage for their community. There is, as your article and this debate clearly shows, absolutely no evidence of Irish descendant Roman Catholics having suffered any significant disadvantage in Scotland now or in the past. On the contrary, they have been welcomed and have enjoyed significant advances through their time spent in a mainly protestant country with a strong focus on education and work as the means of advancement.
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Great post mate
 
70% of young people in the UK identify with no religion
59% of young people in the UK never attend religious services

“The new default setting is ‘no religion’, and the few who are religious see themselves as swimming against the tide,” he said.

“In 20 or 30 years’ time, mainstream churches will be smaller, but the few people left will be highly committed.”

Source : Europe’s Young Adults and Religion, by Stephen Bullivant, a professor of theology and the sociology of religion at St Mary’s University in London. They are based on data from the European social survey 2014-16.


Thus, it seems fair to conclude religion is dying a death. Hopefully football doesnt keep it going.
 
williewoodburn said:
70% of young people in the UK identify with no religion
59% of young people in the UK never attend religious services

“The new default setting is ‘no religion’, and the few who are religious see themselves as swimming against the tide,” he said.

“In 20 or 30 years’ time, mainstream churches will be smaller, but the few people left will be highly committed.”

Source : Europe’s Young Adults and Religion, by Stephen Bullivant, a professor of theology and the sociology of religion at St Mary’s University in London. They are based on data from the European social survey 2014-16.


Thus, it seems fair to conclude religion is dying a death. Hopefully football doesnt keep it going.
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Yeah, those atheists and agnostics Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Lenin and Pol Pot have done so much good for the world. :oops:
 
FourMenHadADream said:
A very interesting and well written article Mark. I heard Professor Devine interviewed on Radio Scotland a couple of months ago and he was dismissing, and laughing at, the notion of anti-Irish / Catholic sectarianism being a "thing" in modern day Scotland. He pretty much said that it is highlighted by the media in a disproportionate and sensationalist way.
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He seems to have a short memory as he quite explicitly stated that sectarianism in Scotland was anti-catholic. This was after TLB was sent a shoe box with a few wires attached or, as described by the authorities, a "viable device".

A while back I googled Tom Devine's appearance on the news but since then Ive been unable to find it. Perhaps someone else could.

Found it on youtube. Date is 20th April 2011. Devine claims sectarianism in Scotland is "anti-catholic bigotry". He seems angry and very bitter.
 
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mdingwall said:
Yeah, those atheists and agnostics Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Lenin and Pol Pot have done so much good for the world. :oops:
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I don't know about Mao or Pol Pot, but the others were all raised within families and communities with deeply held religious beliefs.
It is fair to say that all three were heavily influenced in their formative years by religion.
So it could be argued that subsequent behaviour was not without a strong religious background and upbringing.
Hitler, in particular, remained an admirer of the Roman Catholic Church and its methods of indoctrinating the young, which he would replicate through the Hitler Youth.

I think to judge adults in their atheism and to blame any bad behaviour on that atheism when the same adults were indoctrinated from a young age by religion isn't maybe fair on athiesm.
A case could still be made that any such badness was the result of the damage done by a religious upbringing.

Religion should be banned for any person under the age of sixteen, certainly religious places should be out of bounds until they reach this age.
School should treat the subject as something to be discussed with the same impartiality as any other.
We should educate our children not indoctrinate them.

Just my opinion.
 
muttley said:
Have Irish Catholic emigrants to Scotland suffered ethnic cleansing and mass murder as has befallen Protestant Scots in Ireland, from the massacres of Scottish Protestants in Ulster in 1641, to the ethnic cleansing of Protestants in the Irish Republic post-partition after 1922, to the ethnic cleansing of Protestants in Londonderry from 1969 ? No serious historian could compare both migrations across the Irish Sea down the centuries and claim Irish Catholic victimhood in Scotland.

Of course, there would have been occasions of employment discrimination against the Irish in Scotland, just as there would be in any other country where a local would most likely be offered a job before a stranger. Claims of institutionalised anti-Catholicism in Scotland are, frankly, just ludicrous.
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Succinctly put
 
I'm not sure this 'protestant' club since inception notion is actually credible.

Considering population proportions in the 1860's - 70's & 80's when the numbers of catholics among the general population of Scotland was much less than now - many clubs had exclusively protestant members during the early years of their existence & this simply reflected the general population

Clubs like Dumbarton, Kilmarnock, Vale of Leven & Queen's Park- all formed within a few years of each other ( & at a similar time to ourselves) it could be argued were also exclusively protestant - not necessarily because they chose to be but because they reflected the polulation at that time

It could be argued that we were formed in identical circumstances to say - Dumbarton - who we shared our 1st title with

Matters changed when Hiv's - (3 years after us ?) & eventually those from the east end (16 years after us) were formed as their very existence was to promote allegience to one religious doctrine only

That's certainly the way I understand it & I've not come across anything so far that contradicts this - but of course I'm open to any evidence to the contrary ?
 
gersandproud said:
I'm not sure this 'protestant' club since inception notion is actually credible.

Considering population proportions in the 1860's - 70's & 80's when the numbers of catholics among the general population of Scotland was much less than now - many clubs had exclusively protestant members during the early years of their existence & this simply reflected the general population

Clubs like Dumbarton, Kilmarnock, Vale of Leven & Queen's Park- all formed within a few years of each other ( & at a similar time to ourselves) it could be argued were also exclusively protestant - not necessarily because they chose to be but because they reflected the polulation at that time

It could be argued that we were formed in identical circumstances to say - Dumbarton - who we shared our 1st title with

Matters changed when Hiv's - (3 years after us ?) & eventually those from the east end (16 years after us) were formed as their very existence was to promote allegience to one religious doctrine only

That's certainly the way I understand it & I've not come across anything so far that contradicts this - but of course I'm open to any evidence to the contrary ?
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Check out the census figures. No lack of Catholics in Glasgow in the 1870s.
 
mdingwall said:
Check out the census figures. No lack of Catholics in Glasgow in the 1870s.
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I thought in 1871 - with a total Scots population of just over 3million - those of irish descent - for example - was around 0.9 %
I also thought that was less than now - but of course it could be down to what statistics are used ?
 
gersandproud said:
www.nrscotland.gov.uk
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You're at it.

I don't have Handley's The Irish In Scotland to hand as it has tables of the Irish-born and Catholics per se.

However, Martin Mitchell's New Perspectives On The Irish in Scotland records that in 1851 7.2% of the total population of Scotland was Irish-born and that in Glasgow and Dundee around 20% of the population was Irish-born.
 
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mdingwall said:
You're at it.

I don't have Hadnley's The Irish In Scotland to hand as it has tables of the Irish-born and Catholics per se.

However, Martin Mitchell's New Perspectives On The Irish in Scotland records that in 1851 7.2% of the total population of Scotland was Irish-born and that in Glasgow and Dundee around 20% of the population was Irish-born.
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Thanks for the source - I'll need to check this out when I get the chance

I didn't get any separate stats for Glasgow on general search & would admit we seem to get more than our fair share of irish origin population - compared to the rest of Scotland

Incidentally even wikipedia is showing an irish origin total percentage of 0.98% for Scotland's 2011 population in a 4.8 million total - of course this isn't a particularly accurate method of arriving at an indication of the number of catholics

Anyway - maybe enough of the stats

Do you believe there was evidence of an effort in our early years to remain exclusively protestant - or not ?

By the way - I'm not for a minute trying to be 'at it' - I'm just trying to get this right -
 


You seem to be confusing Irish-born with Catholicism and mutually excluding them.

Obviously descendants of Catholic or Protestant migrants from Ireland would not be listed as Irish-born.
 
mdingwall said:


You seem to be confusing Irish-born with Catholicism and mutually excluding them.

Obviously descendants of Catholic or Protestant migrants from Ireland would not be listed as Irish-born.
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Yeah - fair point - & I did mention that -

Thanks for digging out the above stats which obviously show the numbers in a very different light than the ones I had
 
gersandproud said:
I'm not sure this 'protestant' club since inception notion is actually credible.

Considering population proportions in the 1860's - 70's & 80's when the numbers of catholics among the general population of Scotland was much less than now - many clubs had exclusively protestant members during the early years of their existence & this simply reflected the general population

Clubs like Dumbarton, Kilmarnock, Vale of Leven & Queen's Park- all formed within a few years of each other ( & at a similar time to ourselves) it could be argued were also exclusively protestant - not necessarily because they chose to be but because they reflected the polulation at that time

It could be argued that we were formed in identical circumstances to say - Dumbarton - who we shared our 1st title with

Matters changed when Hiv's - (3 years after us ?) & eventually those from the east end (16 years after us) were formed as their very existence was to promote allegience to one religious doctrine only

That's certainly the way I understand it & I've not come across anything so far that contradicts this - but of course I'm open to any evidence to the contrary ?
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The difference between them and other church groups starting football teams is that it was never the sport but a way of making money. Embra scum were from all parishes with about half the team from Glasgow (amateurs playing in Edinburgh and travelling through at their own expense -aye right). The scum in particular saw the money embra scum were making money and wanted to do the same but stole virtually the whole of embra scum team (who had just won the league and helped the scum by playing a friendly to get them started) making them fold (again amateurs travelling from Edinburgh back to Glasgow at their own expense). So the scum were not set up for football but to make money (for the poor lasted about 5 years). I am not aware of any other club which was not founded by a group of men just wanting to play football.
 
CamBluNoo said:
The difference between them and other church groups starting football teams is that it was never the sport but a way of making money. Embra scum were from all parishes with about half the team from Glasgow (amateurs playing in Edinburgh and travelling through at their own expense -aye right). The scum in particular saw the money embra scum were making money and wanted to do the same but stole virtually the whole of embra scum team (who had just won the league and helped the scum by playing a friendly to get them started) making them fold (again amateurs travelling from Edinburgh back to Glasgow at their own expense). So the scum were not set up for football but to make money (for the poor lasted about 5 years). I am not aware of any other club which was not founded by a group of men just wanting to play football.
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I take your point - it stands to reason finance would have been a big driving force in their reasoning behind the so-called 'charity' set up
& like you rightly point out they stole hiv's team to form their own - that act alone can hardly be called 'charitable'
 
williewoodburn said:
70% of young people in the UK identify with no religion
59% of young people in the UK never attend religious services

“The new default setting is ‘no religion’, and the few who are religious see themselves as swimming against the tide,” he said.

“In 20 or 30 years’ time, mainstream churches will be smaller, but the few people left will be highly committed.”

Source : Europe’s Young Adults and Religion, by Stephen Bullivant, a professor of theology and the sociology of religion at St Mary’s University in London. They are based on data from the European social survey 2014-16.


Thus, it seems fair to conclude religion is dying a death. Hopefully football doesnt keep it going.
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In 20 or 30 years will there still be R.C. schools to indoctrinate kids from 4 or 5 into their cult.
 
indianabluenose said:
I think a lot of degerates want to hide behind the label Irish or Catholic. This problems seems to be isolated to the U.K. when you confront them about degenerate behavior they try to say it’s bigotry. Being an idiot is not a protected class. I am an American and we have zero issues with Catholics or Irish. I believe the problem in the British Isles is they put out the bat signal for low lives to hide behind saying they are Irish or Catholic. There is a reason that actual Irish Catholics usally would not touch these plastic Irishmen with a 10 ft pole.
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Well good to know you have had zero issues.. meanwhile NI folk were on the other end of guns funded by them.. NORAID ring a bell ?
 
Just listened to an lengthy interview with a prominent member of call it out. They are really hammering the ‘anti catholic organisation’ when discussing the loyal orders. She is very focussed but her arguments can be relatively easily dismantled and need to be soon or processions in the east end will be a thing of the past soon.
 
sirstevefleming said:
Just listened to an lengthy interview with a prominent member of call it out. They are really hammering the ‘anti catholic organisation’ when discussing the loyal orders. She is very focussed but her arguments can be relatively easily dismantled and need to be soon or processions in the east end will be a thing of the past soon.
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This mob seem to be an openly anti-Protestant organisation, and ironically, should have been called out on that long, long ago. ? Do they pretend to represent the " Irish " in Glasgow, of which they don't know that Irish Protestants also exist ? The flag they supposedly pledge allegiance to also has an Orange section, so if anything, they should be supporting the Orangemen.
 
muttley said:
This mob seem to be an openly anti-Protestant organisation, and ironically, should have been called out on that long, long ago. ? Do they pretend to represent the " Irish " in Glasgow, of which they don't know that Irish Protestants also exist ? The flag they supposedly pledge allegiance to also has an Orange section.
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Their key arguments are as follows

OO is sectarian - ironically they don’t like using the term sectarian and argue of its definition within WOS context

Irish equals RC and vice versa

They are targeting the police and see them as the main organisation which can impact on parade decisions. Part of this is tarnishing celebration of culture and that there is significant risk of disorder.

The irish in WOS being victimised and under represented within society.
 
sirstevefleming said:
Their key arguments are as follows

OO is sectarian - ironically they don’t like using the term sectarian and argue of its definition within WOS context

Irish equals RC and vice versa

They are targeting the police and see them as the main organisation which can impact on parade decisions. Part of this is tarnishing celebration of culture and that there is significant risk of disorder.

The irish in WOS being victimised and under represented within society.
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Its clear what their aim is, mate. The Calton / Barras area to be an Irish Republican ghetto and a no-go zone for the Loyal Orders. A real lack of " diversity " there, to use the modern PC language. They don't have a problem with the numerous sectarian pro- IRA marches in the same area, for some reason, which ends their argument. As for sectarianism, imagine if RC schools were repeatedly called anti-Protestant schools due to Protestants being banned from being Head Teacher. ? The SNP, unsurprisingly, are backing their craziness to the hilt.
 
mdingwall said:


You seem to be confusing Irish-born with Catholicism and mutually excluding them.

Obviously descendants of Catholic or Protestant migrants from Ireland would not be listed as Irish-born.
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As you say, one can not presume that Irish & "Catholics" are the same. As the majority of Irish migrants came from Ulster it was liable to be more of a 50/50 split.
 
Yes a good article big yin but i have this image of you sitting in the audience with a long trench coat and soft hat on.
Along with adjoining plastic spectacles,nose and moustache purchased from Tam Shepards
 
Southernlion said:
As you say, one can not presume that Irish & "Catholics" are the same. As the majority of Irish migrants came from Ulster it was liable to be more of a 50/50 split.
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No, most estimates say at various times between 20% and a third might have been Protestants.
 
Masterblue said:
Yes a good article big yin but i have this image of you sitting in the audience with a long trench coat and soft hat on.
Along with adjoining plastic spectacles,nose and moustache purchased from Tam Shepards
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I'm not that afraid of being hit on the bonce with an academic text book or being subjected to the horror of a folk Mass. :)
 
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