A point many of us made repeatedly re 'bottle'

Earl of Leven

Earl of Leven

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It's often seen as a very old fashioned Scottish thing...a nonsense that has been replaced by science, new technology and 'Moneyball'...the new trope if that Scottish football CAN be conquered by technique if the right players can just be found....MW and Pedro were right but just wrong personnel.

Wrong.

I am not here to say Murty and Allen have stumbled upon the secret; we could be 25 points behind by May.

But it is clear - as Arthur Numan confirms today - that it is NOT THE SAME playing for us. It isn't like anywhere else except maybe a handful of clubs. Why?

  • Expectations...you have to WIN every home game and most away games, no excuses
  • Hostility....everyone hates you; players, fans and media
  • Stramash....to play your football you ALWAYS need to win every 1:1 and every battle: forget 'taking a touch' early on
  • Goldfish Bowl...everyone wants a piece of you, and you can't hide
I wish our football was like Dutch, or Spanish, but it's not...and we need guys who can not only battle but who understand that nothing is given to us, nothing is taken for granted and not one team will stand aside and let us stroke it about.

'Having bottle' is as crucial to us as technical excellence.
 
Earl of Leven said:
It's often seen as a very old fashioned Scottish thing...a nonsense that has been replaced by science, new technology and 'Moneyball'...the new trope if that Scottish football CAN be conquered by technique if the right players can just be found....MW and Pedro were right but just wrong personnel.

Wrong.

I am not here to say Murty and Allen have stumbled upon the secret; we could be 25 points behind by May.

But it is clear - as Arthur Numan confirms today - that it is NOT THE SAME playing for us. It isn't like anywhere else except maybe a handful of clubs. Why?

  • Expectations...you have to WIN every home game and most away games, no excuses
  • Hostility....everyone hates you; players, fans and media
  • Stramash....to play your football you ALWAYS need to win every 1:1 and every battle: forget 'taking a touch' early on
  • Goldfish Bowl...everyone wants a piece of you, and you can't hide
I wish our football was like Dutch, or Spanish, but it's not...and we need guys who can not only battle but who understand that nothing is given to us, nothing is taken for granted and not one team will stand aside and let us stroke it about.

'Having bottle' is as crucial to us as technical excellence.
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Couldn't agree more mate. Scottish Football and more specifically, playing for us, is unique in that respect. I'm glad that Murty understands this and both he and Allen are recruiting accordingly. If it doesn't work out, then I don't think any of us can criticise the signings he's making.
 
Souness spoke about having to earn the right to play “football” and while it may well have been something more of the 1980s across the footballing world, it does still apply to Scottish football today.

The way McCrorie stood up to Brown in December and let him know that Rangers weren’t intimidated and made a bit of space & time for Rangers’ passing game to settle and dominate parts of the game demonstrated the point.

Playing for Rangers is difficult - expectations and people wanting to show you up mean that you need to find something more than is required at other clubs.
Our most lauded stars had ability but also a bit of swagger and a willing to go and win the ball before you could show your tricks.
 
We cannot 'show our skills' the way other teams can...we have to fight for the right to do so. MW and Pedro never quite got this...although Pedro mentioned it in interviews bizarrely!!
 
OP is right. I fell for Pedro's rubbish about how he was going to get warriors and the right players for a club like ours. As usual it was all just smooth talk though.

The reality is that we need players mentally strong. MW made a mess of that. Guys like Waghorn couldn't handle such heavy responsibility. Let's see if Murty has got most of it right this month.
 
Earl of Leven said:
It's often seen as a very old fashioned Scottish thing...a nonsense that has been replaced by science, new technology and 'Moneyball'...the new trope if that Scottish football CAN be conquered by technique if the right players can just be found....MW and Pedro were right but just wrong personnel.

Wrong.

I am not here to say Murty and Allen have stumbled upon the secret; we could be 25 points behind by May.

But it is clear - as Arthur Numan confirms today - that it is NOT THE SAME playing for us. It isn't like anywhere else except maybe a handful of clubs. Why?

  • Expectations...you have to WIN every home game and most away games, no excuses
  • Hostility....everyone hates you; players, fans and media
  • Stramash....to play your football you ALWAYS need to win every 1:1 and every battle: forget 'taking a touch' early on
  • Goldfish Bowl...everyone wants a piece of you, and you can't hide
I wish our football was like Dutch, or Spanish, but it's not...and we need guys who can not only battle but who understand that nothing is given to us, nothing is taken for granted and not one team will stand aside and let us stroke it about.

'Having bottle' is as crucial to us as technical excellence.
Click to expand...
Agree with everything, except point 1, we are expected to win every game or the Bears are pissed off.
 
As the years pass, I appreciate Walter more and more.

I frequently criticised him at the time for his often dour, percentage football, but boy did he know what was needed to win in Scotland.

The failure of more progressive minded coaches like Le Guen, Warburton and to some extent Pedro to appreciate this is ultimately why they failed.

It was a big part of why I think McInnes was attractive - because we thought he’d ‘get it’, that he was essentially Walter Lite.

It wasn’t to be, but if we’re focusing on a similar approach under Murty, I think it stands a much better chance of succeeding than any loftier alternative does.

I guess we’ll find out soon enough.
 
Fair points but only up to a point

Scottish teams are continually gubbed by low ranked European opposition, which kind of blows your opening out the water. I've not seen many you would say have done so with anything other than better technical players
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
I would absolutely love playing for us because of the environment of hostility. We need players who thrive on it, who want to piss people off and who love a wee scrap.

I am not convinced Cummings is a superstar in the making but I am certain he will do well for us because he is a combative, arrogant, annoying wee lady's front bottom.
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I agree. This is one of the reasons that I was very disappointed when, a decade or so ago, we failed to sign another pesky, whiny wee forward, Scott McDonald.

Cummings will do very well for us. I just hope the "Cumdog" nonsense is history.
 
I disagree and I agree.

Better quality can easily overcome battling qualities of Scottish football but the only time it’s ever been done with any degree of success was Advocaat and McLeish. Both squads costs crazy money and contained numerous international players from countries we simply could not come close to buying these days.

Given the constraints of Scottish football it is obvious the current path (sprinkled with elements of quality) is the only solution. Dare I say it a well drilled best of Scottish team with some key elements like Morelos etc thrown in would be more than close to winning this league.
 
Earl of Leven said:
It's often seen as a very old fashioned Scottish thing...a nonsense that has been replaced by science, new technology and 'Moneyball'...the new trope if that Scottish football CAN be conquered by technique if the right players can just be found....MW and Pedro were right but just wrong personnel.

Wrong.

I am not here to say Murty and Allen have stumbled upon the secret; we could be 25 points behind by May.

But it is clear - as Arthur Numan confirms today - that it is NOT THE SAME playing for us. It isn't like anywhere else except maybe a handful of clubs. Why?

  • Expectations...you have to WIN every home game and most away games, no excuses
  • Hostility....everyone hates you; players, fans and media
  • Stramash....to play your football you ALWAYS need to win every 1:1 and every battle: forget 'taking a touch' early on
  • Goldfish Bowl...everyone wants a piece of you, and you can't hide
I wish our football was like Dutch, or Spanish, but it's not...and we need guys who can not only battle but who understand that nothing is given to us, nothing is taken for granted and not one team will stand aside and let us stroke it about.

'Having bottle' is as crucial to us as technical excellence.
Click to expand...
Absolutely spot on. We need a minimum of 3 leaders in the side- preferably at least 5. Guys who take defeat personally and who aren’t slow to let their team mates know it. Too many have been set playing in their own bubble more concerned about their own performance instead of the one all dominating single ‘swing thought’ of playing to win at all costs.
 
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Coza said:
I disagree and I agree.

Better quality can easily overcome battling qualities of Scottish football but the only time it’s ever been done with any degree of success was Advocaat and McLeish. Both squads costs crazy money and contained numerous international players from countries we simply could not come close to buying these days.

Given the constraints of Scottish football it is obvious the current path (sprinkled with elements of quality) is the only solution. Dare I say it a well drilled best of Scottish team with some key elements like Morelos etc thrown in would be more than close to winning this league.
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The better quality we had was always, absolutely always, complimented with some right hard bastards though. Advocaat had guys like Ian Ferguson, perhaps not the most technical, although actually very good footballers, but players who could and would win any battle you put them in. In technical leagues you can get away with technical teams (but even Barca had a Mascherano and Pepe at Real) but in Scotland, to win 'well' Earl is absolutely correct* and it has never been any different, you need to apply some steel to the side to allow the flair to come forwards.


*happening more and more as time goes by. I feel dirty.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
The better quality we had was always, absolutely always, complimented with some right hard bastards though. Advocaat had guys like Ian Ferguson, perhaps not the most technical, although actually very good footballers, but players who could and would win any battle you put them in. In technical leagues you can get away with technical teams (but even Barca had a Mascherano and Pepe at Real) but in Scotland, to win 'well' Earl is absolutely correct* and it has never been any different, you need to apply some steel to the side to allow the flair to come forwards.


*happening more and more as time goes by. I feel dirty.
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Yeah I agree In many ways but we would have won that league without Ian Ferguson playing.
But then again don’t under estimate how hard Moore was or even Amo in a snidey Italian way.
 
Coza said:
Yeah I agree In many ways but we would have won that league without Ian Ferguson playing.
But then again don’t under estimate how hard Moore was or even Amo in a snidey Italian way.
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Exactly, Advocaat had some hugely talented players that were good athletes and brave with it. Soft, technical sides just will not do well in a league that generally has to look for a method of nullifying better players due to budget constraints. It is far easier to stop others playing than it is play well yourself, all you need is stamina, timing and courage to put yourself in the way of a flying boot.
 
You need a mixture, you mention Spanish and Dutch football, well players like Puyol, Ramos, Davids are not shy.

Our problem out with Scotland is we dont have enough of a mixture.

Though 100% on expectations, you need winners and that should be a minimum . You cant survive at Ibrox if you thin "there's always next week" after a draw or defeat!
 
I agree that the battles have to be won, but to date that usually means we're a man down before you can say Ryan Jack. Or have a player bloodied and his nose broken, and it is not considered an offense.
Hopefully the quality of player now being recruited will give the team more mental strength, and the ability to overcome setbacks.
Officials have been responsible for an 8 point swing this season with regards to the Mhankies, this needs to be addressed forcibly by the club, or Rangers will not be winning titles any time soon.
 
After years of the progressive and expansive chat, it has finally dawned on me that we should have a core of Scottish players. 7 at least. Maybe another two UK and a couple of foreigners.

As someone pointed out the other day, the most successful Rangers teams of the past have been full of Scottish players.

Yes there have been successful teams in the past made up up of mainly foreigners but they cost money we can’t afford right now.
 
Tim Hunter said:
I agree that the battles have to be won, but to date that usually means we're a man down before you can say Ryan Jack. Or have a player bloodied and his nose broken, and it is not considered an offense.
Hopefully the quality of player now being recruited will give the team more mental strength, and the ability to overcome setbacks.
Officials have been responsible for an 8 point swing this season with regards to the Mhankies, this needs to be addressed forcibly by the club, or Rangers will not be winning titles any time soon.
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In a nutshell sir.
 
RabSpackman said:
Souness spoke about having to earn the right to play “football” and while it may well have been something more of the 1980s across the footballing world, it does still apply to Scottish football today.

The way McCrorie stood up to Brown in December and let him know that Rangers weren’t intimidated and made a bit of space & time for Rangers’ passing game to settle and dominate parts of the game demonstrated the point.
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Morelos showed him up as well, showed him up for what he is, a paper tiger!:p

W.A.T.P.
 
100% correct O.P. "Having Bottle" and Shoulders to carry the burden of wearing the Rangers shirt.
Unfortunately some players can't carry that expectations or load.
 
Agree EoL, and as many have found out over the last 6+ years, Rangers was far too big a club for them and they bottled it, at our cost. Lets hope Graeme can bring back what has been missing, bottle and determination to be a true Ranger.

We saw the bench mark set against the scum, hopefully that was the start of our come back............
 
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Scottish football is what it is.
I, like many others, fell for the dream of passing & moving all the way from the goalie right into the opposition's net.
A year and a half in this Premiership has changed all of that heady optimism, this is a mean, dirty wee league.
The 1st order of business is dominate the opposition by winning one v ones, nice football is not going to cut it here.
Players that have that bit of devil about them are what we need.
 
Baloo72 said:
Fair points but only up to a point

Scottish teams are continually gubbed by low ranked European opposition, which kind of blows your opening out the water. I've not seen many you would say have done so with anything other than better technical players
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That's playing with European referee's who have quite different standards to what's an acceptable tackle than Scottish refs.
 
sudamericaranger said:
OP is right. I fell for Pedro's rubbish about how he was going to get warriors and the right players for a club like ours. As usual it was all just smooth talk though.

The reality is that we need players mentally strong. MW made a mess of that. Guys like Waghorn couldn't handle such heavy responsibility. Let's see if Murty has got most of it right this month.
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To be fair to Pedro, I think he was genuine and correct in his 'warriors' thing. It's unrealistic to expect all players to be purchased to fit a mould and it is very unfortunate that his most expensive buys were not warriors. But you can see in Jack and Candeias and Dorrans and Morelos that he did buy players with fight and self-belief. Cardoso divides opinion but I think he's been fine in that regard too. Alves has been disappointing for me compared to what was expected but you can't claim that you wouldn't have expected him to be a warrior. Murty seems to be continuing this though we need to see his buys in action to confirm it. I'd say Pedro over-payed horribly for a few players but his overall recruitment was good. His problem was that he seemed to be a godawful manager who couldn't get them to play for him.

Being a big game player is similar but slightly different. McCrorie and Cummings obviously have this in spades. That is crucial for us just now as we have lost our swagger a bit. We need players who will walk out anywhere with no fear and instil fear in others. In the past, 0-0 with ten minutes left and the minnows were terrified, knowing we'd take the win. Now we are too scared of losing and it can become self-fulfilling. We need more swagger.

One other big thing about playing for us as opposed to smaller clubs is formation. We almost always play packed defences. We need guys who can play tight and create space from nothing. That's not a skill set needed at most clubs.
 
Coza said:
I disagree and I agree.

Better quality can easily overcome battling qualities of Scottish football but the only time it’s ever been done with any degree of success was Advocaat and McLeish. Both squads costs crazy money and contained numerous international players from countries we simply could not come close to buying these days.

Given the constraints of Scottish football it is obvious the current path (sprinkled with elements of quality) is the only solution. Dare I say it a well drilled best of Scottish team with some key elements like Morelos etc thrown in would be more than close to winning this league.
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Agree with this. I also don’t for a second buy that there’s somehow a unique or greater pressure playing for us than say, Man Utd, Real or Barca.

It’s still a joke of a league and the right players would walk it, even if they were all foreign.
 
Starting Anew said:
One other big thing about playing for us as opposed to smaller clubs is formation. We almost always play packed defences. We need guys who can play tight and create space from nothing. That's not a skill set needed at most clubs.
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In these circumstances it is also necessary to have defenders who are able to cope with with a 2 or 3 man breakaway counter attack. This has been the Achilles heel of the team since they started in the bottom tier. Although our own poor scoring rate has been just as culpable.
 
Tim Hunter said:
In these circumstances it is also necessary to have defenders who are able to cope with with a 2 or 3 man breakaway counter attack. This has been the Achilles heel of the team since they started in the bottom tier. Although our own poor scoring rate has been just as culpable.
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Agreed. We either need a very competent DM who is fast to close space between a withdrawn defence and the rest of the midfield or at least one fast defender. We've had a high midfield and 2 very slow CBs for years which exacerbates the problem. Cardoso has some pace but he's no Bougherra. Having Jack and McRorie helps a lot, as does Candeias doing a shift tracking back.
 
Good post EoL. Very valid points from both yourself & subsequent posters.

Souness & Walter had the "bottle" & a "winning mentality" which they instilled in our players & they certainly weren't bullied.

MW & Pedro were a bit soft & didn't understand what was required of our players mentally or physically to succeed in this league.

I was just glad when McInnes turned down the job as in my opinion he didn't have the "bottle" to get us to 55.

Looks like Murty & MA have a better idea of whats required, so we'll just have to wait & see. He'll need to stop dropping points against the lower teams in the league & hopefully the players coming in will help with the winning mentality required. I'm not saying I was overjoyed when Murty was given the job to the end of the season, as I thought he lacked the experience required. However the recent signings have got me buzzing & I can't wait to get back to Ibrox next Wednesday.

Here's to the return of "bottle" & the "winning mentality".
 
Advocaat’s teams were the epitomy of the OPs points! Yes they may have been foreign, but players like Amoruso, Albertz, Tugay, Numan, Moore, Reyna, Porrini etc knew EXACTLY what it meant to play for Rangers, would never shy out of a 50/50 and were more then comfortable in the goal fish bowl of Scottish football. I agree there is a certain type of mentality required, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be a Scottish player. More recently Cuéllar, Darcheville and Boumsong had the same attributes. Sadly the type of players MW, Pedro and PLG signed just didn’t have these attributes required.
 
So how come Scottish teams are so easy to beat? If any of the op was true Scottish teams would be hard to beat. Or would at the very least represent a struggle.
 
RabSpackman said:
Souness spoke about having to earn the right to play “football” and while it may well have been something more of the 1980s across the footballing world, it does still apply to Scottish football today.

The way McCrorie stood up to Brown in December and let him know that Rangers weren’t intimidated and made a bit of space & time for Rangers’ passing game to settle and dominate parts of the game demonstrated the point.

Playing for Rangers is difficult - expectations and people wanting to show you up mean that you need to find something more than is required at other clubs.
Our most lauded stars had ability but also a bit of swagger and a willing to go and win the ball before you could show your tricks.
Click to expand...

Great post that I agree with 100%.
 
Alister Mcclorey said:
So how come Scottish teams are so easy to beat? If any of the op was true Scottish teams would be hard to beat. Or would at the very least represent a struggle.
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I'm talking about winning within Scotland...not Europe. We're nowhere near challenging in Europe and won't be for many years.
 
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