Aberdeen hun banner-Reply from Justice Minister (office)

"The Scottish Government cannot ban the use of individual words as it is the context of when and how a word or words are used that is important when determining if a crime has been committed."

Waffles on about how "Context matters." Manages to ignore the very specific - genocidal, no less! - context of the complaint at hand.

£15.5m "invested" in this scam.
 
The Chairman or CEO of St Mirren wished that Rangers fans had drowned and the SFA did sod all. Mind you neither did the board, so what chance have we got?

Yet Kyle Lafferty copped a ten match ban for something that was not under the jurisdiction of the SFA. Then there's the irissh boots in Hampden, which most assuredly was. Once again congratulations to those who have kept digging.
All these incidents are just firm confirmations of the bias, theres no alternative or arguing, it's a fact that Rangers and the fans are treated differently to others. All you have to do is look at the long list of bizarre accusations, how long they drag on far, who's at the forefront and the ignorance of facts that leads to an ultimatum that is then perpetuated as true. As long as you know that then the power and solace is with you.
 
So, it's the context in which the hurty words are used and not the actual word itself. Therefore. fe!÷@n, is ok to use as a proper noun not and adjective. Is that right?? Cool.
They have lied if they say the context of what is said matters. There has already been a conviction (although tbf it was online) where it's was made clear context was irrelevant it only mattered that someone was offended.
 
Basically .. yes

It basically is saying.. what? You expect us to care about sectarian abuse aimed at Rangers fans!





I am going to go through the letter and replay to each section they have written. I did put it up to show I got a reply ( for all the good it is) but was also just wondering if anyone else that complained got the same sort of reply or did they get something different back?
I got the same reply the sfa and spfl have to deal with it. I emailed the spfl but got no response.
 
That's one media outlet and credit to them however compare and contrast to the piles of incidents that have been jumped on involving Rangers or their fans as the "aggressor" the similarities are glaring eye opening. The bottom line is clear, Rangers and their fans are fair game no matter how vile and depraved the abuse is.
Correct but, we as a support also suffer from apathy. We also all need to make our voices heard and far to many just do not bother doing anything to complain.
 
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"We encourage anyone who experiences hate to phone the police"


Bloody hell man the police are staring right at it and do nothing.

As we know sectarianism is a one way street in this country.
You right but, thats also because not enough of our support complain and are more than happy to just moan and do nothing mate.
 
Did anyone else that took time to complain get a similar reply?

Thank you for your email on 4th November to Keith Brown, Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans,
regarding sectarian behaviour. The Cabinet Secretary receives a large volume of correspondence, and
I hope you appreciate that it is not possible for him to respond personally to each one. I work in the
Community Safety Unit and have been asked to respond.

Sectarian behaviour is completely unacceptable and I would firstly like to reassure you that we
unequivocally condemn any form of hatred or prejudice. I understand why you are concerned, bigoted
behaviour should have no place in any community across Scotland. The Scottish Government believes
that everyone has the right to be safe and to feel safe and we are committed to tackling all forms of
discrimination and promoting a multi-cultural society based on mutual trust, respect and understanding.
The Scottish Government cannot ban the use of individual words as it is the context of when and how a
word or words are used that is important when determining if a crime has been committed. We do of
course recognise that the use of words or phrases can be considered offensive and that this can be
very distressing to the individual hearing the comment, though it is important to note that this does not
automatically mean that the language used breaches the criminal threshold.

You may be aware the new Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill has extended existing
legislation to introduce new stirring up hatred offences for protected characteristics, including religion
and race (which covers nationality, citizenship, ethnic and/or national origins). This was in recognition that
stirring up hatred can incite people to commit offences and contribute to an atmosphere in which
prejudice is accepted as normal. The new offences, once in force, will extend greater protection for
those who suffer from this kind of behaviour.

However, we understand that legislation in and of itself is not enough. In June 2017, we established a
ministerial-led Action Group, with key stakeholders, to take forward an ambitious programme of work to
tackle hate crime and building communities cohesion. The document can be found here:
government-response-report-independent/ . The key priorities identified by the Action Group included
victim support through raising awareness of hate crime and encouraging report and the need to ensure
better data and evidence.
In December 2021, we published a report on progress of the Tackling Prejudice and Building Connected Communities Action Plan and now begin development of a new hate
crime strategy which will be published this year and support implementation of the Hate Crime and
Public Order (Scotland) Act.

We also continue to take forward the recommendations of the Advisory Group on Tackling Sectarianism
in Scotland which were reviewed by Professor Duncan Morrow in March 2017. Since 2012, we have
invested over £15.5 million to tackle sectarianism. This work continues to focus on and be delivered
through education projects in schools, colleges, communities, workplaces and prisons, providing for
both children and adults. This includes the work of the Fair Play Foundation, Nil by Mouth and Sense
Over Sectarianism. More information about this work can be found on the
Action on Sectarianism Website.


Sectarianism is a societal issue, but we do recognise that one of the ways that it manifests publicly is
through football – that is why we also continue to encourage all clubs and governing bodies to do
everything in their power to tackle sectarianism on their grounds. While the vast majority of football
supporters are well-behaved, there is clearly still a significant problem which all of those with an ability to
influence and to change must contribute to eradicating. Any issues around behaviour at football
matches are a matter for the clubs involved, the Scottish Professional Football Association, the Scottish
Football Association and, in the event of any criminality, Police Scotland. Our preferred solution has
always been that football steps up to address this long-standing problem with meaningful solutions. It is
important for football to demonstrate leadership.


As taking appropriate action in response to specific criminal offences is a matter for Police Scotland
and the Scottish Government cannot (by law) direct Police Scotland in their operational approach, you
also may wish to raise some of your concerns directly with the Chief Constable. Full details about their
complaints process can be found at the following address on Police Scotland’s website:
complaint/ .

We continue to encourage anyone who believes they have experienced or witnessed any form of hate
crime to report it to Police Scotland by dialling 999 in emergencies or 101 in non-emergencies.
Alternatively, reports can be made online by completing Police Scotland’s online hate crime reporting form. There are also third party reporting centres where specially trained staff can provide support and
assistance in submitting a report to the police on your behalf. Details of these can be found here:
centres/. Hate crimes can also be reported 100% anonymously by contacting Crimestoppers at:
https://crimestoppers-uk.org/give-information/forms/give-information-anonymously
.
I hope you find this information helpful.
Yours sincerely
I got bored by the half way point
 
Did anyone else that took time to complain get a similar reply?

Thank you for your email on 4th November to Keith Brown, Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans,
regarding sectarian behaviour. The Cabinet Secretary receives a large volume of correspondence, and
I hope you appreciate that it is not possible for him to respond personally to each one. I work in the
Community Safety Unit and have been asked to respond.

Sectarian behaviour is completely unacceptable and I would firstly like to reassure you that we
unequivocally condemn any form of hatred or prejudice. I understand why you are concerned, bigoted
behaviour should have no place in any community across Scotland. The Scottish Government believes
that everyone has the right to be safe and to feel safe and we are committed to tackling all forms of
discrimination and promoting a multi-cultural society based on mutual trust, respect and understanding.
The Scottish Government cannot ban the use of individual words as it is the context of when and how a
word or words are used that is important when determining if a crime has been committed. We do of
course recognise that the use of words or phrases can be considered offensive and that this can be
very distressing to the individual hearing the comment, though it is important to note that this does not
automatically mean that the language used breaches the criminal threshold.

You may be aware the new Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill has extended existing
legislation to introduce new stirring up hatred offences for protected characteristics, including religion
and race (which covers nationality, citizenship, ethnic and/or national origins). This was in recognition that
stirring up hatred can incite people to commit offences and contribute to an atmosphere in which
prejudice is accepted as normal. The new offences, once in force, will extend greater protection for
those who suffer from this kind of behaviour.

However, we understand that legislation in and of itself is not enough. In June 2017, we established a
ministerial-led Action Group, with key stakeholders, to take forward an ambitious programme of work to
tackle hate crime and building communities cohesion. The document can be found here:
government-response-report-independent/ . The key priorities identified by the Action Group included
victim support through raising awareness of hate crime and encouraging report and the need to ensure
better data and evidence.
In December 2021, we published a report on progress of the Tackling Prejudice and Building Connected Communities Action Plan and now begin development of a new hate
crime strategy which will be published this year and support implementation of the Hate Crime and
Public Order (Scotland) Act.

We also continue to take forward the recommendations of the Advisory Group on Tackling Sectarianism
in Scotland which were reviewed by Professor Duncan Morrow in March 2017. Since 2012, we have
invested over £15.5 million to tackle sectarianism. This work continues to focus on and be delivered
through education projects in schools, colleges, communities, workplaces and prisons, providing for
both children and adults. This includes the work of the Fair Play Foundation, Nil by Mouth and Sense
Over Sectarianism. More information about this work can be found on the
Action on Sectarianism Website.


Sectarianism is a societal issue, but we do recognise that one of the ways that it manifests publicly is
through football – that is why we also continue to encourage all clubs and governing bodies to do
everything in their power to tackle sectarianism on their grounds. While the vast majority of football
supporters are well-behaved, there is clearly still a significant problem which all of those with an ability to
influence and to change must contribute to eradicating. Any issues around behaviour at football
matches are a matter for the clubs involved, the Scottish Professional Football Association, the Scottish
Football Association and, in the event of any criminality, Police Scotland. Our preferred solution has
always been that football steps up to address this long-standing problem with meaningful solutions. It is
important for football to demonstrate leadership.


As taking appropriate action in response to specific criminal offences is a matter for Police Scotland
and the Scottish Government cannot (by law) direct Police Scotland in their operational approach, you
also may wish to raise some of your concerns directly with the Chief Constable. Full details about their
complaints process can be found at the following address on Police Scotland’s website:
complaint/ .

We continue to encourage anyone who believes they have experienced or witnessed any form of hate
crime to report it to Police Scotland by dialling 999 in emergencies or 101 in non-emergencies.
Alternatively, reports can be made online by completing Police Scotland’s online hate crime reporting form. There are also third party reporting centres where specially trained staff can provide support and
assistance in submitting a report to the police on your behalf. Details of these can be found here:
centres/. Hate crimes can also be reported 100% anonymously by contacting Crimestoppers at:
https://crimestoppers-uk.org/give-information/forms/give-information-anonymously
.
I hope you find this information helpful.
Yours sincerely

It's a typical long-winded reply to a genuine complaint, which shows the general feelings towards Rangers supporters.

'That's us got another complaint from a Rangers Fan, what should we do? For them, just send one o' the standard replies from the top drawer marked F*ck Them' ........... that about sums it up.
 
It's a typical long-winded reply to a genuine complaint, which shows the general feelings towards Rangers supporters.

'That's us got another complaint from a Rangers Fan, what should we do? For them, just send one o' the standard replies from the top drawer marked F*ck Them' ........... that about sums it up.
That's the problem though, it should be countless complaints from Rangers fans.
 
What does all that mean?
It means they don't give a toss about sectarianism as long as it is aimed at protestants, Rangers fans and Rangers football club. Using offensive words is not a crime I think. Really a lot ot words saying nothing and not answering the question.
 
It means they don't give a toss about sectarianism as long as it is aimed at protestants, Rangers fans and Rangers football club. Using offensive words is not a crime I think. Really a lot ot words saying nothing and not answering the question.
It also means, no Rangers fans should ever vote SNP and always complain when opposing fans have banners such as this and make our voices heard collectively.
 
It also means, no Rangers fans should ever vote SNP and always complain when opposing fans have banners such as this and make our voices heard collectively.
In my experience and believe me it goes back a fair bit there is a decent percentage of Rangers or Rangers leaning individuals who vote SNP,I’ve been retired for quite a few years now but I’ve had countless discussions even arguments with people I would consider part of the Rangers Unionist community who’s hatred for all thing English is every bit as vicious as any loony Nat.
 
I wrote to David Martin regarding the Dundee United supporters and their behaviour towards the Queen and their songs about her and have to say he was pretty decent and replied quickly and did let me know that the police had treated that as a hate crime.

I do think though that we as a support all had to be more proactive and all collectively complain as for me a louder voice is going to have more impact that just a few supporters writing emails.
This!!!!
 
I personally don't or have ever cared what the rest of them call us. Their jealousy and hatred is palpable because of our overarching success on the field and our legendary travelling support off it.
Let them call us all the names they want, it's like firing a spud gun at a juggernaut.
 
That response took a long time and many hours for that.

Sums up the public service. Instead of going direct they skitter about the problem, do nothing and cost time to make a service far from lean.

Pathetic response. If you're looking in hang your head in shame.
 
I personally don't or have ever cared what the rest of them call us. Their jealousy and hatred is palpable because of our overarching success on the field and our legendary travelling support off it.
Let them call us all the names they want, it's like firing a spud gun at a juggernaut.
We should care though as our fans are being jailed using a term or singing a song and their fans clearly can abuse us with sectarian hate crime terminology! Its about the double standards in society mate.
 
The term “ we are trying to create a multi - cultural society “ is scandalous policy in a western so called democratic nation. They are hellbent on social engineering Scottish nationalism through encouraging illegal immigration to transcend the demography of Scotland, in the vain hope the “ new people”
Pledge political subservience to them.
The email was incoherent, liberal communist ramblings from a technocratic dogma designed by the unemployables based at Bute house and Holyrood.
No point contacting these political deranged parasites. Better communicating to Uk based political parties who have a semblance of national integrity. It’s difficult to find though.
 
Odd, can’t remember them saying the same thing when they were demanding players were sacked on Twitter based on an obviously doctored video of our title celebrations.
 
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Perhaps a more relevant response would be received if we had a go to lawyer to advise on these matters.

Get what the real current legal position would be in a courtroom then take it from there.

Ask the lawyer how they would go about pressing to convict someone of breaking the law for this indident. Similarly ask them what they would do if asked to defend someone for this.
 
Perhaps a more relevant response would be received if we had a go to lawyer to advise on these matters.

Get what the real current legal position would be in a courtroom then take it from there.

Ask the lawyer how they would go about pressing to convict someone of breaking the law for this indident. Similarly ask them what they would do if asked to defend someone for this.
On you go mate.
 
If it had been Rangers fans with a banner saying Kill All Tarr**rs you can bet the response from the SNP would be very different.
 
I wrote to David Martin regarding the Dundee United supporters and their behaviour towards the Queen and their songs about her and have to say he was pretty decent and replied quickly and did let me know that the police had treated that as a hate crime.

I do think though that we as a support all had to be more proactive and all collectively complain as for me a louder voice is going to have more impact that just a few supporters writing emails.
Reference your response. As you say, they are basicaly telling you to phone the polis. Was thinking about this this morning. Is it worth sending another later asking the MP is they will take the matter up with the Chief Constance on your behalf and feed back his response? You know, do something about it rather than tell you to phone the polis?

it’s not as if it’s a case of your word against his scenario, the evidence is there and was seen by a national audience FFS
 
Remove the word beginning with an H, replace it with a certain word that begins with an F. See what reply you get to the same question......
 
Lots of words but no actual condemnation of Aberdeen fans then?

^^ This! Sh*t scared of upsetting any demographic they perceive that may be voting for them.

I also notice that all of a sudden sectarianism and discrimination are a “societal issue”. Until of course the next opportunity comes along for a few of their politicians to jump on top of their faux moral high horse and try and make some political mileage out of sticking the boot into Rangers supporters and the club. Then all of a sudden it’s back to being a football issue and particularly a Rangers problem. :rolleyes:
 
Reference your response. As you say, they are basicaly telling you to phone the polis. Was thinking about this this morning. Is it worth sending another later asking the MP is they will take the matter up with the Chief Constance on your behalf and feed back his response? You know, do something about it rather than tell you to phone the polis?

it’s not as if it’s a case of your word against his scenario, the evidence is there and was seen by a national audience FFS
Thanks for the advice
 
Thanks for the advice
Im sure you’ve already thought about every angle mate.

Its just frustrating that what could be termed a hate crime (by their measure) can play out on TV for 45 minutes and the Scottish Government say it’s nothing to do with them.

They don’t even condemn it. Compare that to the response from the justice minister to a very obviously faked video showing Rangers players singing a song!
 
Im sure you’ve already thought about every angle mate.

Its just frustrating that what could be termed a hate crime (by their measure) can play out on TV for 45 minutes and the Scottish Government say it’s nothing to do with them.

They don’t even condemn it. Compare that to the response from the justice minister to a very obviously faked video showing Rangers players singing a song!
I agree with all that you are saying but, will also repeat myself and say that, we as a support have to stop with the apathy and actually get involved with complaining about such sectarian hate crime abuse aimed at us.
 
"The Scottish Government cannot ban the use of individual words as it is the context of when and how a word or words are used that is important when determining if a crime has been committed."

The context: "Kill All Huns"
 
On you go mate.

This reply to your post will underline what you have said in posts 56, 58, 66, 71, 77, 96 and others posts.

You are prompting me to take action and follow up on my words. You know fine and well I'll do nothing.

I agree that is a problem and I am part of the problem.

So I'll be honest with you - the truth is -

1. I don't care what some hate filled loser thinks about me
2. While I am concerned about the one sided nature of what is perceived as sectarianism in Scotland, I am clearly not motivated enough to do anything about it - why - well there are a few reasons -
3. Because nobody is listening, I feel helpless, there are too many bigots in the ruling party in Scotland, we do not have a coordinated plan to begin a fight back, we are reaching out to the wrong people, we need someone to lead the campaign from our side (they have several people doing it from theirs (Jeanette Findlay, Angela Haggerty to name 2). Probably mostly, if am being brutally honest, I feel I have better things to do with my limited time than this.

I do admire your actions though even if I believe politicians will fob you off. It would help if we had some go to respected people in influential positions to work with us (law, media, academics). That may help turn all talk and no action fans like me, into active motivated supporters like yourself.

Sorry if this pisses you off mate but I feel you deserve an honest response, so there it is.
 
This reply to your post will underline what you have said in posts 56, 58, 66, 71, 77, 96 and others posts.

You are prompting me to take action and follow up on my words. You know fine and well I'll do nothing.

I agree that is a problem and I am part of the problem.

So I'll be honest with you - the truth is -

1. I don't care what some hate filled loser thinks about me
2. While I am concerned about the one sided nature of what is perceived as sectarianism in Scotland, I am clearly not motivated enough to do anything about it - why - well there are a few reasons -
3. Because nobody is listening, I feel helpless, there are too many bigots in the ruling party in Scotland, we do not have a coordinated plan to begin a fight back, we are reaching out to the wrong people, we need someone to lead the campaign from our side (they have several people doing it from theirs (Jeanette Findlay, Angela Haggerty to name 2). Probably mostly, if am being brutally honest, I feel I have better things to do with my limited time than this.

I do admire your actions though even if I believe politicians will fob you off. It would help if we had some go to respected people in influential positions to work with us (law, media, academics). That may help turn all talk and no action fans like me, into active motivated supporters like yourself.

Sorry if this pisses you off mate but I feel you deserve an honest response, so there it is.
Mate, the fact stands that Rangers fans whinge and moan about sectarian hate crime but, do not want to do anything about it , not even complain to their MP . They then they come on here and post and do the same on social media and whinge and moan and still , do not want to do anything about it.

The fact is, nothing will change until we all stand up and make them be accountable for their behaviour towards us. A really loud voice will also be heard above a whimper and right now on this , I am sorry to say but, our support is the whimper ...

I do respect your honesty in your reply.
 
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