Another false dawn

Drumchapel-Bear

Well-Known Member
So basically we need them to fail to qualify for the CL another 5 years in a row then we might just stand a chance.

Been reading for about 4 consecutive seasons on here how disasterous failing to qualify for the CL is for them, “pack of cards” etc and yet I still don’t see any time on the horizon when they won’t be strong favourites.

Realistically with Lennon in charge, they downsized massively there, and if we can’t apply a bit of pressure and topple them with him in charge...well, if they win their fabled “10” they’ll probably look to get in a more balanced, serious manager.

It's difficult to put a timescale on when we will win the league. All we can do is keep improving every season (which we are doing) and wait for Celtic to slip.

I wasn't confident we would win today after seeing the teams. We were without 3 players who would likely be in our strongest 11 in Roofe, Aribo and Jack and Hibs have been flying. Look at some of the options on our bench today when we have a few injuries, our squad depth is a problem.

There was a thread on here during the international break about our next block of 6 games and it was a thread were most posters were in agreement that we would be doing extremely well to take anything more than 15 points out of it. Now the usual suspects are going mental because it has happened, when we all agreed previously that we had a really tough run of games coming up.

We also got done again today by shocking game changing refereeing decisions. Something that happens on a regular basis now when I can't even remember the last time the Tim's had 1 go against them that cost them points.
 

Uncle Albert

Well-Known Member
So basically we need them to fail to qualify for the CL another 5 years in a row then we might just stand a chance.

Been reading for about 4 consecutive seasons on here how disasterous failing to qualify for the CL is for them, “pack of cards” etc and yet I still don’t see any time on the horizon when they won’t be strong favourites.

Realistically with Lennon in charge, they downsized massively there, and if we can’t apply a bit of pressure and topple them with him in charge...well, if they win their fabled “10” they’ll probably look to get in a more balanced, serious manager.
It's because Celtic are flat track bullies which isn't necessarily an insult btw.

Against functional, well drilled sides (including us) they struggle. The likes of McGregor, Forrest and Christie run riot against SPFL sides and Brown is given free reign to just kick and grunt.

Forrest in particular is like a midfield version of Kris Boyd.

We just haven't mastered ruthlessly putting these teams to the sword.
 

Steve Snedden

Well-Known Member
If we had the average points return we have had for the first 8 games for the rest of the season we would finish the season on 95 points. Somebody could maybe correct me but I think that would be the best total we've had since moving to the 3 points for a win rule?

We've conceded in 1 domestic game out of 8.

Will we finish on 95 points? Almost certainly not but it shows you how incredibly unrealistic our fans expectations are when they are going crazy at our start to the league campaign.

2002/3 97 points.

It’s going to need a total somewhere in that region if we are to win the title.
 

woodfernnz

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
We played very poorly - midfield offered very little .


That said - Arifled should of scored to kill the game and was denied by a quality double save - kent should of finished to make it 3-1 and again kill the game .

On another day that could of been 4-1 .

We will beat them at the Piggery and go from there .

Next week we will need to be on our A game .
 

SecondBestIsNothing

Well-Known Member
Smith’s last season was the only season he earned more points after 8 games than we have this season (in his 2nd spell). We aren’t throwing anything right now, our issues have always been how we perform after Christmas.
 

LLLG

Well-Known Member
We played very poorly - midfield offered very little .


That said - Arifled should of scored to kill the game and was denied by a quality double save - kent should of finished to make it 3-1 and again kill the game .

On another day that could of been 4-1 .

We will beat them at the Piggery and go from there .

Next week we will need to be on our A game .
Midfield is slow!
Davis is done and we ALL see this

that then brings the rest of the midfield down to his pace and that’s the issue, to be fair they have the same issue with the Lego eater
 

BlueBuzz

Well-Known Member
Don't deny any of that.

But you want Gerrard to be doing more than sitting there passively. I'm saying, in his mind, it's not a bad result. He will consider the reaction of fans to be hysterical.
If it was a one off result and performance then the reactions could be classed as hysterical. But how many times have we seen this type of result and performance the last 3 seasons. There is virtually no margin of error in this league and after 4 away games we’ve already witnessed 2 games that the performances and the result were not acceptable. It’s already looking too familiar from what’s happened the last 2 seasons.
 

Turrabear

Well-Known Member
We don't take our chances and kill teams off. When we went two up we should have had a third and fourth.

I thought Hibs were ordinary, how we allowed them back into the game is beyond me.

It's been the same all season. Aberdeen could've been the same but we managed to hold on, we should be putting teams out of sight.
We allowed them in today with an off side goal.but the rest of your post is hard to disagree with.
 

Turrabear

Well-Known Member
If it was a one off result and performance then the reactions could be classed as hysterical. But how many times have we seen this type of result and performance the last 3 seasons. There is virtually no margin of error in this league and after 4 away games we’ve already witnessed 2 games that the performances and the result were not acceptable. It’s already looking too familiar from what’s happened the last 2 seasons.
Your correct mate.but it is early in the season .that is the only saving grace.we have seen the total collapse of the team after the winter break in the last two seasons . This can,t be allowed to happen for a third season in a row.i,m not getting over excited about today.
 

Remo-town

Well-Known Member
Phuckin agree Tags
The dark cloud loyal. Hover about match threads, quiten down a bit when we win, but not always. There was plenty moaning after winning at hamilton and aberdeen.

Soon as a points dropped it's all in with the unhappiest fans in the world behaviour, then drag the rest of us down with them.

Its utterly depressing and to say that's the league done when sitting top of the league is a new low. Now I'm reading how celtic will take 3 or 4 off hibs ffs.
 

bluetonic

Well-Known Member
We don't take our chances and kill teams off. When we went two up we should have had a third and fourth.

I thought Hibs were ordinary, how we allowed them back into the game is beyond me.

It's been the same all season. Aberdeen could've been the same but we managed to hold on, we should be putting teams out of sight.
We are not ruthless enough at times, we need to be to win trophies
 

Remo-town

Well-Known Member
It's difficult to put a timescale on when we will win the league. All we can do is keep improving every season (which we are doing) and wait for Celtic to slip.

I wasn't confident we would win today after seeing the teams. We were without 3 players who would likely be in our strongest 11 in Roofe, Aribo and Jack and Hibs have been flying. Look at some of the options on our bench today when we have a few injuries, our squad depth is a problem.

There was a thread on here during the international break about our next block of 6 games and it was a thread were most posters were in agreement that we would be doing extremely well to take anything more than 15 points out of it. Now the usual suspects are going mental because it has happened, when we all agreed previously that we had a really tough run of games coming up.

We also got done again today by shocking game changing refereeing decisions. Something that happens on a regular basis now when I can't even remember the last time the Tim's had 1 go against them that cost them points.
Good post mate.
 

spotlight

Well-Known Member
Naively thought we would put a real leader in midfield pre season, we put a lot of cash into the club. Yet the obvious signing we needed has still not happened and we have already slipped up in 2 away games
 

crmpicco

Well-Known Member
If that’s all you’ve got. Did Walter smiths teams win every single league game?
No, but Walter's team could win when it mattered.

The likelihood is that Gerrard will go over to Holland and beat Willem II and everyone will be back on here saying what a run he's had in Europe but 3 or 4 games down the line we'll come a cropper domestically again and the harbingers of doom will be out in force again.

It's the same season after season and as @DoubleWhopper mentioned above they have downsized massively with Neil Lennon and we STILL can't catch them. It's a bloody joke.
 

LoopyJuice

Active Member
We don't take our chances and kill teams off. When we went two up we should have had a third and fourth.

I thought Hibs were ordinary, how we allowed them back into the game is beyond me.

It's been the same all season. Aberdeen could've been the same but we managed to hold on, we should be putting teams out of sight.
We didn’t let them back in the game, the lino did.
 

DoubleWhopper

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
If it was a one off result and performance then the reactions could be classed as hysterical. But how many times have we seen this type of result and performance the last 3 seasons. There is virtually no margin of error in this league and after 4 away games we’ve already witnessed 2 games that the performances and the result were not acceptable. It’s already looking too familiar from what’s happened the last 2 seasons.

No arguments from me.

If you look at the league table in isolation then sure, we look like we’re still in a decent position.

It’s basically only 2 points behind them. Here’s the thing though, we all expect we’ll be the ones to blink first before them, yet again. We expect 2 will become 4, very likely after next Sunday which looks like another banana skin
 

ThorntonMM

Well-Known Member
Ref spots the offside in the build up or the two hands on the back of Helander and it’s 2-1. 3 points.
We were piss poor in defense yesterday. Almost seemed like we were in pedestrian mode when we were 2 1 ahead.

The Kent miss (keeper save) was the turning point. If that had gone in we'd have gone on to won the match comfortably.
 

NeilFifeLoyal

Well-Known Member
Yesterday was disappointing and I tend to agree wth the op we’ve seen this movie before. Next Sunday is absolutely massive we must win if we don’t its curtains. The scum will win the vast majority of their games and we must do the same.
 

Drumchapel-Bear

Well-Known Member
Can someone explain what would be an acceptable way of dropping points that wouldnt be the team bottling it or "watching the same movie again" etc?

Yesterday actually wasn't anything like the Livi game for instance were we couldn't break down a low block for 90 mins.

Yesterday we went to Easter Road, fell behind and then actually showed good character to get back into the game and then ahead. If bottle was the issue then surely the players would have crumbled as soon as we lost the first goal?

We then had the combination of a missed sitter and an equalizing goal from them that shouldn't have stood.

Our fans don't know what they're angry about. They just throw the toys out the pram every time we drop points these days.

I thought we were quite poor and laboured yesterday. It shows how much we miss Roofe's work rate and movement. We are far more dynamic in attack with him in the team.
 

JW1988

Well-Known Member
Can someone explain what would be an acceptable way of dropping points that wouldnt be the team bottling it or "watching the same movie again" etc?

Yesterday actually wasn't anything like the Livi game for instance were we couldn't break down a low block for 90 mins.

Yesterday we went to Easter Road, fell behind and then actually showed good character to get back into the game and then ahead. If bottle was the issue then surely the players would have crumbled as soon as we lost the first goal?

We then had the combination of a missed sitter and an equalizing goal from them that shouldn't have stood.

Our fans don't know what they're angry about. They just throw the toys out the pram every time we drop points these days.

I thought we were quite poor and laboured yesterday. It shows how much we miss Roofe's work rate and movement. We are far more dynamic in attack with him in the team.
It's the same every time. They know they're angry, they're not sure what about.. so they throw all the usual cliche's out there that you've just mentioned. We WILL drop more points this year. That's a fact. People need to (for their own health more than anything) get that into their heads and just take it in their stride
 

Mustang mad

Well-Known Member
That's a controversial opinion on here with many. Right opinion in the real world.
I honestly dont see how its controversial at all. End of this campaign, that will be 3 seasons, and possibly no title with full financial backing. if we are brutally honest, the shitshow that was the calling of the the last campaign possibly kept him in a job. To go this full season again and not win the league- thanks for your time and effort Stevie.
 

Craig McColl

Well-Known Member
I honestly dont see how its controversial at all. End of this campaign, that will be 3 seasons, and possibly no title with full financial backing. if we are brutally honest, the shitshow that was the calling of the the last campaign possibly kept him in a job. To go this full season again and not win the league- thanks for your time and effort Stevie.
I don't think it's controversial. But some on here think we stick with him no matter how many times he doesn't deliver. Been argued plenty of times and plenty saying he shouldn't be sacked even if he fails 3 years in a row. I don't understand it myself.
 

YOGI_GER

Well-Known Member
I knew we would drop points yesterday.

This is a mentality thing with this team and I just don't know how it will be overcome. I don't get the constant optimists saying that's being negative, it's a fact that we cannot push on in a single game let alone a run of games.

I keep saying it and even though he scored a great goal, I wish Morelos was gone so that we had something different up front to this team. I personally think Roofe is a winner that could see us over the line in games like this but obviously injured yesterday.

That team was last years team with a last year performance.
 

Dbbear

Well-Known Member
This may or may not be another false dawn. What it comes down to is we have dropped points again in a pressure game and it’s came down to:

1. Officials
We can’t deny they are plying a part - it is losing us points in tight games. If we got the same calls as what they get last season we are not finishing trophyless and the league is suddenly a lot tighter. The decision to “award” would’ve became much more contested and interesting.

2. Scoring
We do not take enough of our chances. Any games we’ve dropped points in there has always been 2-3 chances that have looked like it should have been goals. Scoring them and we are taking all the points. Many times it’s not world class saves that keeps it out, it’s us fluffing our lines. I think there was a stat last year we had more shots in goals and expected goals of any team yet we were not top scorers.

3. Defending
General our defending is quite good and we have good players in that area. What seems to happen is in pressure games we have an individual error or lose a cheap gaol in a pressure situation. Hibs yesterday case in point - losing 1 goal to them, ok mistakes happen but we shouldn’t then be allowing them another! How many games last year and the year before was it simple individual errors that cost us the game??

With all that what is the answer? I think on officials behind the scenes and interviews we need to call it out. Gerrard does not need to attack or call the refs cheat but he can say another poor call has cost us, why is Morelos picked on, it always seems to be us or my player that’s on the end of these calls etc etc. Maybe mention perhaps we need VAR as the officials here aren’t calling tight decisions correctly. Things like that it sets the scene for we know it’s happening.

On the other points - I think it’s mental. I think we panic when the pressure is on. We get scared when the opposition is in our faces and we know we need a win.
 

TinyRick

Well-Known Member
If we had the average points return we have had for the first 8 games for the rest of the season we would finish the season on 95 points. Somebody could maybe correct me but I think that would be the best total we've had since moving to the 3 points for a win rule?

We've conceded in 1 domestic game out of 8.

Will we finish on 95 points? Almost certainly not but it shows you how incredibly unrealistic our fans expectations are when they are going crazy at our start to the league campaign.
This is exactly what I was thinking this morning. Someone moaning that we've 'shat it in a quarter of our games so far'.

I'm still waiting for the definitive list of who we are allowed to drop points to. We can't drop points to celtic, because it's them, and everyone else is 'dross' who we should routinely be humping 5-0 or more.

With this in mind, it's easy to understand how some folk lock themselves into that cycle of thought, and any setback is seen as reinforcing their own negativity. This is usually justified by 'we've seen this before', and they look for anything to validate that position and belief (Goldson is a bombscare, Tav is never a captain, Alfie has downed tools, Gerrard is not a winner [no, really], Gerrard needs to be jumping about like Wibble or TLB to motivate them etc). Any evidence against that position is happy clapping, or lowering of standards, and quite frankly it is all just tedious now.

It used to be that if we went on an undefeated run, it was a good thing. Now it has to be a win streak Goldberg would be proud of, otherwise the knives are out.
 

sammy1872

Well-Known Member
Midfield is slow!
Davis is done and we ALL see this

that then brings the rest of the midfield down to his pace and that’s the issue, to be fair they have the same issue with the Lego eater
Wouldn’t say he’s done but he should be kept for games at Ibrox or smaller away games when teams sit in

he should be nowhere near a team at parkhead, hibs, sheep , Dundee Utd
 

RedWhiteBlue

Well-Known Member
Can someone explain what would be an acceptable way of dropping points that wouldnt be the team bottling it or "watching the same movie again" etc?

Yesterday actually wasn't anything like the Livi game for instance were we couldn't break down a low block for 90 mins.

Yesterday we went to Easter Road, fell behind and then actually showed good character to get back into the game and then ahead. If bottle was the issue then surely the players would have crumbled as soon as we lost the first goal?

We then had the combination of a missed sitter and an equalizing goal from them that shouldn't have stood.

Our fans don't know what they're angry about. They just throw the toys out the pram every time we drop points these days.

I thought we were quite poor and laboured yesterday. It shows how much we miss Roofe's work rate and movement. We are far more dynamic in attack with him in the team.

I think the problem is that all the signs point to us not winning the league.

The tims have spent 12 million on players and are already on a five game winning streak.

We are suffering with injuries, looking like we will sell Morelos and have dropped points twice in the first 8 games.

The bottom line on here is "2nd place is unacceptable". Which is fine.
So many aren't willing to wait until the end of the season to see how things played out though.

It then becomes "looking like we will be 2nd is unacceptable" and so every bad result is met with the same reaction.

It gets to the stage where you are expecting our results to be 100% perfect.
Except even a 1-0 win is not good enough because we might have lost a goal.
Winning 3-0 is not good enough because we need to score more.
So everyone is primed and ready to lose their shit when we get a 0-0 or a 2-2.

I somehow doubt we will go through the season undefeated so we are going to have to deal with the first defeat of the season soon enough.

I think what we all need is a genuine sign that the tims are weakening.
Something like a six match run where they drop points in 3 of the six or something like that.

As it stands they seem like they will drop points to the other ten teams 3 or 4 times at best and we simply cannot compete with that.

We can fire Gerrard and bring someone else in but the same problems will be there. We can't build a squad that will get a perfect season or even a nearly perfect season in the SPL.

Unless the tims start throwing away stupid points regularly we are put in a position of demanding absolute perfection from a squad that simply can't provide it. Any dropped points are unacceptable but unfortunately dropped points are also inevitable.
 

RedWhiteBlue

Well-Known Member
This is exactly what I was thinking this morning. Someone moaning that we've 'shat it in a quarter of our games so far'.

I'm still waiting for the definitive list of who we are allowed to drop points to. We can't drop points to celtic, because it's them, and everyone else is 'dross' who we should routinely be humping 5-0 or more.

With this in mind, it's easy to understand how some folk lock themselves into that cycle of thought, and any setback is seen as reinforcing their own negativity. This is usually justified by 'we've seen this before', and they look for anything to validate that position and belief (Goldson is a bombscare, Tav is never a captain, Alfie has downed tools, Gerrard is not a winner [no, really], Gerrard needs to be jumping about like Wibble or TLB to motivate them etc). Any evidence against that position is happy clapping, or lowering of standards, and quite frankly it is all just tedious now.

It used to be that if we went on an undefeated run, it was a good thing. Now it has to be a win streak Goldberg would be proud of, otherwise the knives are out.

To be fair, I think three times in recent memory the support have been able to demand better from the club and the club have delivered.

When Advocaat replaced Smith.
When McLeish replaced Advocaat.
When Smith replaced Le Guen.

On those occasions we were able to demand better and we got it. A few title wins before the momentum is lost and we are back to building up again.

So the support, especially on here, seem to have this idea that if we just really, really, really insist that "2nd best isn't good enough" then things will be made better because of that demand.

Thing is we DID get this with Gerrard.

Season 2014-2015 was a goddamn disgrace. 2015-16 was better but ended on a really sour note to be honest. 2016-17 was a shambles. 2017-18 was another shambles.

Really, it was only 2018-19 where things actually started to look up for us.
We did OK in Europe. We beat the scum twice. We saw some pretty good performances and results.
Basically the first season in years where we were not routinely the subject of humiliation.

Last season was even better.
Really impressive European run. Epic Euro nights at home against Legia, Feyenoord, Porto and Braga.
Beat them at Parkhead.
In the first 20 games of the season we only dropped 7 points.
Then of course, the winter break came along and we collapsed and the season was never completed in the end.

We've got to the point now where it's time for fans to demand the title or the manager has to walk.

I just don't think that it's realistic for us to do that in the way that we used to.

You could easily see a new manager coming in next year and the tims win the first 11 games of the season while we get a defeat (to them) and a couple of draws and the league already looks done. So what do we do then? Just keep on changing managers?

ANY manager we bring in will experience dropped points.
ANY dropped points we have in the SPL will be a direct result of crap performances.
So it follows that every time we drop points it will be a "here we go again" situation.
Livingston was "we've learned nothing" because we failed to score.
Hibs was "we've learned nothing" because we conceded two poor goals.
The only way we don't hear "Gerrard has learned nothing" is if we somehow drop points in the SPL without either bad defending or poor attacking and that's actually f*cking impossible.
 

pelem

Well-Known Member
The last 3 posters Dbbear, Tinyrick and RedWhiteBlue I have read noting very valid points, well to me anyway.
 

JamesMcNaught

Active Member
I don’t think the performance was awful yesterday, but it triggered reminders of recent seasons. For me, the encouraging thing was the way we repeatedly cut open one of the better ( albeit dirty ) Scottish teams. It’s not enough, but rather than bottling it suggested that we continued to play our football.
 
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