Anyone else read the latest BDO report published today?

Someone mentioned Arsenal, others mention the precedent not being utilised, and some mentioned an HMRC conspiracy against us due to Celtc fans working there.

The image rights issues were settled in full by the many players and teams who were issued notices. Including Arsenal. I’m not aware of any other issue Arsenal we’re involved in.

I’ve not seen any public Follower Notices for EBT’s yet but HMRC want all of the tax they are due and don’t do horse trading settlements. Settling with them involves reaching an agreement on calculation total of tax due. And they often go to court on the back of precedents like ours and get all the money they are due, or like what happened in our case, a small percentage of the liquidation.

They went after us because it was an open goal. The EBT scheme was dodgy. Run by a dodgy smoke and mirrors owner who fucked us over.

Blaming a tim-led HMRC conspiracy is clutching at straws.
 
Albertz Loyal said:
What's the Craig white stuff?
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My understanding is as follows:-
  1. It was not actually David Murray's EBT's that put us into liquidation, as if you recall correctly, at that time, they were deemed to be legal.
  2. It was Craig Whyte's failure in Season 2011/12 to forward VAT and NI contributions legally deducted from employees, as well as employer contributions, that put us over the edge.
Also, during this period, the Club's Arsenal shares were disposed of, and to this day, apparently nobody can trace where the sale proceeds went, and Craig Whyte has refused to discuss it.

Anyone better informed is welcome to contradict what I have said above, if they can provide a more accurate version.
 
Big D said:
That was certainly reported, yet here we are a decade down the line and still the only club to have faced this type of action from HMRC, despite being far from the only club to use EBT's. It stinks to the high heavens. Always has done.
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Football clubs don’t go into liquidation it’s extremely rare. Especially not football clubs our size. There’s always people willing to buy . The amount of money to put a club like ours into liquidation would have to be 100+ million. That’s what the figure from hmrc st the time that scared off buyers for Murray. No old was ever buying us while the tax case was unresolved . No one respectable anyway. Murray was desperate to sell that’s how we ended up with a crook. Add in high ranking people in hmrc/government (dr Reid) wanted us dead and basically everything went against us. It’s the only way 2012 could have happened . Take out even one of them. Like the games debt figure , Murray desperate to sell which lead to whyte (no whyte no non payment of paye-no liquidation )or people wanting us dead and 2012 never happens
 
TN8 said:
Has this not already been confirmed, that they were never going to negotiate? It was always their intention to take it all the way to get their "legal precedent" on EBTs?
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The legal precedent, of which they had already agreed settlements with Celtic and Arsenal (on a lower scale granted)
 
Davie_Mitchell said:
Someone mentioned Arsenal, others mention the precedent not being utilised, and some mentioned an HMRC conspiracy against us due to Celtc fans working there.

The image rights issues were settled in full by the many players and teams who were issued notices. Including Arsenal. I’m not aware of any other issue Arsenal we’re involved in.

I’ve not seen any public Follower Notices for EBT’s yet but HMRC want all of the tax they are due and don’t do horse trading settlements. Settling with them involves reaching an agreement on calculation total of tax due.
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Davie_Mitchell said:
Someone mentioned Arsenal, others mention the precedent not being utilised, and some mentioned an HMRC conspiracy against us due to Celtc fans working there.

The image rights issues were settled in full by the many players and teams who were issued notices. Including Arsenal. I’m not aware of any other issue Arsenal we’re involved in.

I’ve not seen any public Follower Notices for EBT’s yet but HMRC want all of the tax they are due and don’t do horse trading settlements. Settling with them involves reaching an agreement on calculation total of tax due. And they often go to court on the back of precedents like ours and get all the money they are due, or like what happened in our case, a small percentage of the liquidation.

They went after us because it was an open goal. The EBT scheme was dodgy. Run by a dodgy smoke and mirrors owner who fucked us over.

Blaming a tim-led HMRC conspiracy is clutching at straws.
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Arsenal were using EBT's and HMRC settled with them.
 
Bluechip said:
Thanks Dr.John R**d.
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Reid was absolutely instrumental, IMO.

He went from being the Home Secretary of the United Kingdom to the chairman of Celtic Football Club and not long after HMRC were banging at our door after moving the goalposts on EBT use.

Arsenal settled with them, but for some reason they weren’t interested in doing the same with us?

It’s always stunk.
 
okbear said:
As an ex Bond Holder, I’ve had at least two cheques, total I can’t remember, but if we receive a third dividend, I’m fairly certain we will be in the 20p to the £ bracket, that’s much more than the CVA was offering and it shows, if proper financial due diligence was carried out, an agreed repayment plan over a 10 year period then very few people would have lost out on anything.

I’m not counting Europa money or the recent transfer fees in this. The player value at the time and blue pound would have seen this achieved.

This further underlines the illegal practices that were applied to our club by those yet to be legally identified.

The sooner the criminal elements of the Whyte case are concluded, the sooner the public inquiry can start.
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When did you get the cheques? I've had none
 
Davie_Mitchell said:
Someone mentioned Arsenal, others mention the precedent not being utilised, and some mentioned an HMRC conspiracy against us due to Celtc fans working there.

The image rights issues were settled in full by the many players and teams who were issued notices. Including Arsenal. I’m not aware of any other issue Arsenal we’re involved in.

I’ve not seen any public Follower Notices for EBT’s yet but HMRC want all of the tax they are due and don’t do horse trading settlements. Settling with them involves reaching an agreement on calculation total of tax due. And they often go to court on the back of precedents like ours and get all the money they are due, or like what happened in our case, a small percentage of the liquidation.

They went after us because it was an open goal. The EBT scheme was dodgy. Run by a dodgy smoke and mirrors owner who fucked us over.

Blaming a tim-led HMRC conspiracy is clutching at straws.
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"An open goal"?

HMRC lost the case twice before a very unusual decision was made at the highest court in the land, many legal people were surprised at the decision and commented as such.

May not have been mentally challengeds who were behind this, but there were people within HMRC who decided early on that they were not going to settle for anything else than the full amount from Murray, perhaps he was their target and not the club.
 
instructor said:
Arsenal were using EBT's and HMRC settled with them.
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I can’t find anything that says Arsenal paid less tax than they were due to pay. I believe they paid what HMRC asked for, hence, they settled without going to court or being prosecuted for tax avoidance. They had the means to pay up, and it was obviously the best business decision at the time, but we didn’t have money to cover it and Murray ran for the hills leaving a big pile of shite in his wake. It was 100% Murray’s fault leaving us saddled with that liability. HMRC did what they had to do because we couldn’t pay.
 
So for all you Kingites out there Murray had the Club up for sale for years where was the mouthpiece King with his ONE POUND then this might not have happened and we could be top dogs in this backwater today?
 
Rangersmandownunder said:
"An open goal"?

HMRC lost the case twice before a very unusual decision was made at the highest court in the land, many legal people were surprised at the decision and commented as such.

May not have been mentally challengeds who were behind this, but there were people within HMRC who decided early on that they were not going to settle for anything else than the full amount from Murray, perhaps he was their target and not the club.
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I take your point mate. “Open goal” is wrong. A lot of other clubs did use that scheme, so the tax advice was borderline and you’re right, the case played out that way.

My point stands that HMRC did what they had to do, they had no choice after we formally disputed the payment notice because we couldn’t pay. We had no choice but to dispute it because Murray left us like that. I believe if we could have paid, we would have, just like the other clubs pursued by HMRC and there would never have been a chance for them to test the EBT scheme in court. Murray sleepwalked down that cul-de-sac.
 
It would have been the dream result if we could have got the old Company back, Dave King mentioned this at one point I’m sure?

Crazy that we are going to lose it for less than £50M.
 
Bluenose Whistler said:
So for all you Kingites out there Murray had the Club up for sale for years where was the mouthpiece King with his ONE POUND then this might not have happened and we could be top dogs in this backwater today?
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At the time ,King ,Alistair Johnston were on the board.Rangers formed a committee called the “Takeover Committee “ if I remember correctly.As a shareholder at the time,I received a letter from this committee (John Greig was on it too) where they stated that they did not trust Craig Whyte.

This suggests to me that King (nor anyone else) was “allowed” to simply take over Rangers.It seemed that someone decided it was going to be Whyte and no one else
 
Davie_Mitchell said:
I take your point mate. “Open goal” is wrong. A lot of other clubs did use that scheme, so the tax advice was borderline and you’re right, the case played out that way.

My point stands that HMRC did what they had to do, they had no choice after we formally disputed the payment notice because we couldn’t pay. We had no choice but to dispute it because Murray left us like that. I believe if we could have paid, we would have, just like the other clubs pursued by HMRC and there would never have been a chance for them to test the EBT scheme in court. Murray sleepwalked down that cul-de-sac.
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And the proper amount we had to pay was half of what HMRC initially demanded. So it just doesn't stink once, it stinks twice. Perhaps we could have paid the lesser amount over time with a bit of cooperation from HMRC. Whatever your view, for some reason we were made an example of, unfairly in my view.
 
RMHBear said:
At the time ,King ,Alistair Johnston were on the board.Rangers formed a committee called the “Takeover Committee “ if I remember correctly.As a shareholder at the time,I received a letter from this committee (John Greig was on it too) where they stated that they did not trust Craig Whyte.

This suggests to me that King (nor anyone else) was “allowed” to simply take over Rangers.It seemed that someone decided it was going to be Whyte and no one else
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King could do nothing at the time anyway. The SA government froze all his assets.
 
Bearsden Bear said:
My understanding is as follows:-
  1. It was not actually David Murray's EBT's that put us into liquidation, as if you recall correctly, at that time, they were deemed to be legal.
  2. It was Craig Whyte's failure in Season 2011/12 to forward VAT and NI contributions legally deducted from employees, as well as employer contributions, that put us over the edge.
Also, during this period, the Club's Arsenal shares were disposed of, and to this day, apparently nobody can trace where the sale proceeds went, and Craig Whyte has refused to discuss it.

Anyone better informed is welcome to contradict what I have said above, if they can provide a more accurate version.
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The shares went to some dodgy Russian who was in the Panama papers.
 
Carlukebear12345 said:
What gets me is that have never went against anyone else to my knowledge who used ebts
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Think ebt was ok, it was the way the company administered the scheme which was sketchy.
I remember when we signed the keeper watterus, there was a wee hold up as his agent and lawyer queried the payment terms through use of ebt. They advised against and so he was paid a normal salary.

I know Arsenal used ebt scheme as well, but for a short period and they quickly settled.
So, who knows
 
Bearsden Bear said:
My understanding is as follows:-
  1. It was not actually David Murray's EBT's that put us into liquidation, as if you recall correctly, at that time, they were deemed to be legal.
  2. It was Craig Whyte's failure in Season 2011/12 to forward VAT and NI contributions legally deducted from employees, as well as employer contributions, that put us over the edge.
Also, during this period, the Club's Arsenal shares were disposed of, and to this day, apparently nobody can trace where the sale proceeds went, and Craig Whyte has refused to discuss it.

Anyone better informed is welcome to contradict what I have said above, if they can provide a more accurate version.
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The risk over the use of ebt scheme drove away any potential bidder when Murray was trying to get rid. At that point Sir duped was still looking for a good few bob for the club, but any new owner could potentially be landed with a tax bill over 10 mill. So, no buyers.

The day that scheme was started, led to our 'journey '.
 
instructor said:
And the proper amount we had to pay was half of what HMRC initially demanded. So it just doesn't stink once, it stinks twice. Perhaps we could have paid the lesser amount over time with a bit of cooperation from HMRC. Whatever your view, for some reason we were made an example of, unfairly in my view.
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We were made an example of because we couldn’t pay. As I said, if we (Murray) had the means to pay, then the proper calculation would have been agreed and we’d have paid. Instead, we got sold to a fuckwit who made it worse.
 
HandsomeHead said:
Reid was absolutely instrumental, IMO.

He went from being the Home Secretary of the United Kingdom to the chairman of Celtic Football Club and not long after HMRC were banging at our door after moving the goalposts on EBT use.

Arsenal settled with them, but for some reason they weren’t interested in doing the same with us?

It’s always stunk.
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Hiding in plain sight.

Seems so obvious to me he orchestrated everything that led to our downfall.
 
Rangersmandownunder said:
"An open goal"?

HMRC lost the case twice before a very unusual decision was made at the highest court in the land, many legal people were surprised at the decision and commented as such.

May not have been mentally challengeds who were behind this, but there were people within HMRC who decided early on that they were not going to settle for anything else than the full amount from Murray, perhaps he was their target and not the club.
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The decision was certainly unusual and found in HMRC’s favour on account of a concept which had never been raised by the taxman in any other case previous to ours.

This concept is known as “re-direction of earnings” and, at a very simplistic level, means that nothing earned in the employment can be paid to a third party.

It had the potential to change how most salary sacrifice schemes were administered (the whole concept of a salary sacrifice is earnings being paid to a third party be it a pension scheme, car leasing company or provider of private medical insurance). However, due to other legislation which was brought in, these are now not affected.

The loan charge is also as a direct result of our case. If HMRC can’t get the money from the employer, they’ll recover it from the employee. It’s probably partly why Barry Ferguson was declared bankrupt.
 
Some truly mental figures in that statement.

Liquidators fees £6.3m



Claim against the former joint administrators £7.5m
 
£56m will include their exorbitant interest too won’t it?

Absolute farce they can call something illegal and then back date 14% interest or whatever it was on top.
 
The Blue Iceberg said:
Correct and at that time the disputed total debt was only about £22M if I remember correctly?

We could've sold Jelavic, Naismith, Shagger and Davis and been home and dry.

The legal advice we've had over the years has been staggeringly bad.
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Yup, the amount we paid in ebts was around £40m, so the tax due on them was around £18m.

The biggest scandal is still why there was never a fire sale of the squad, which at the time would easily have cleared the decks. Every other football administration, hearts Dundee, Motherwell etc has resulted in a fire Sale. Ours didn't. Why not?
 
Bearsden Bear said:
My understanding is as follows:-
  1. It was not actually David Murray's EBT's that put us into liquidation, as if you recall correctly, at that time, they were deemed to be legal.
  2. It was Craig Whyte's failure in Season 2011/12 to forward VAT and NI contributions legally deducted from employees, as well as employer contributions, that put us over the edge.
Also, during this period, the Club's Arsenal shares were disposed of, and to this day, apparently nobody can trace where the sale proceeds went, and Craig Whyte has refused to discuss it.

Anyone better informed is welcome to contradict what I have said above, if they can provide a more accurate version.
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Correct. HMRC decided not to accept the CVA because Whyte withheld monies due to them. The "Big Tax Case" was irrelevant at that time as no definitive ruling had been made on it.

It's HMRC's policy that they would not deal with those who have deliberately not paid rather than those would could not pay.
 
Davie_Mitchell said:
Someone mentioned Arsenal, others mention the precedent not being utilised, and some mentioned an HMRC conspiracy against us due to Celtc fans working there.

The image rights issues were settled in full by the many players and teams who were issued notices. Including Arsenal. I’m not aware of any other issue Arsenal we’re involved in.

I’ve not seen any public Follower Notices for EBT’s yet but HMRC want all of the tax they are due and don’t do horse trading settlements. Settling with them involves reaching an agreement on calculation total of tax due. And they often go to court on the back of precedents like ours and get all the money they are due, or like what happened in our case, a small percentage of the liquidation.

They went after us because it was an open goal. The EBT scheme was dodgy. Run by a dodgy smoke and mirrors owner who fucked us over.

Blaming a tim-led HMRC conspiracy is clutching at straws.
Click to expand...

This whole tax case episode was very dodgy to say the least. I honestly can't think of another case in UK tax history in which so many stolen documents were uploaded to the internet years before it even went to a tribunal. We even had the BBC meeting someone in London and being given stolen documents in view of millions on TV.

Look at a number of other factors also like we were told that HMRC don't do deals with football clubs that hasn't been the case at all over the years as multiple cases have been settled.

Then we had someone at government level warning Celtic away from EBT's.

Whyte also being allowed to run up nine months of unpaid tax while at the exact same time Hearts get issued with a winding up order after 30 days of non payment.

Lastly we were told that Rangers were being used as a test case for other clubs and since the case finished HMRC have done nothing to pursue other clubs for similar schemes.

This whole episode was just way too orchestrated to be bad luck for me.
 
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Craigie said:
Correct. HMRC decided not to accept the CVA because Whyte withheld monies due to them. The "Big Tax Case" was irrelevant at that time as no definitive ruling had been made on it.

It's HMRC's policy that they would not deal with those who have deliberately not paid rather than those would could not pay.
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HMRC seem to have different rules for different clubs as Hearts deliberately didn't pay tax on the players they brought in from FC Kaunas. What they did wasn't tax avoidance but Tax evasion. They also agreed to pay money owed to HMRC by a certain deadline and missed it several times.

HMRC also cut a deal with Hearts knowing full well they'd be going into administration soon after and that they'd never see the agreed amount paid to them.

Two clubs with similar issues who seem to have been treated differently for some reason?
 
FDB1978 said:
HMRC seem to have different rules for different clubs as Hearts deliberately didn't pay tax on the players they brought in from FC Kaunas. What they did wasn't tax avoidance but Tax evasion. They also agreed to pay money owed to HMRC by a certain deadline and missed it several times.

HMRC also cut a deal with Hearts knowing full well they'd be going into administration soon after and that they'd never see the agreed amount paid to them.

Two clubs with similar issues who seem to have been treated differently for some reason?
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I'll be honest, tax law/HMRC is way way out of my comfort zone so have no idea of the intricacies of Hearts to be honest.

Regardless of their case, given Whyte pocketed money Rangers "paid" for PAYE/NI it is little wonder they refused our CVA.
 
Bearsden Bear said:
My understanding is as follows:-
  1. It was not actually David Murray's EBT's that put us into liquidation, as if you recall correctly, at that time, they were deemed to be legal.
  2. It was Craig Whyte's failure in Season 2011/12 to forward VAT and NI contributions legally deducted from employees, as well as employer contributions, that put us over the edge.
Also, during this period, the Club's Arsenal shares were disposed of, and to this day, apparently nobody can trace where the sale proceeds went, and Craig Whyte has refused to discuss it.

Anyone better informed is welcome to contradict what I have said above, if they can provide a more accurate version.
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Did they not end up in his mothers account,i seem to remember something along those lines?
 
Craigie said:
I'll be honest, tax law/HMRC is way way out of my comfort zone so have no idea of the intricacies of Hearts to be honest.

Regardless of their case, given Whyte pocketed money Rangers "paid" for PAYE/NI it is little wonder they refused our CVA.
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Here's a bit about Hearts tax case.

HMRC took them to court five times for non payment of tax yet they still cut a deal with them.


www-accountancyage-com.cdn.ampproject.org

Hearts FC faces HMRC court action over unpaid tax - Accountancy Age

Heart of Midlothian Football Club is facing fresh court action over unpaid tax
www-accountancyage-com.cdn.ampproject.org www-accountancyage-com.cdn.ampproject.org
 
Everything that happened to Rangers in that period is the fault of David Murray.

The con artists, charlatans, spivs etc were all let in because of the actions of one man. Without David Murray's ego and mismanagement none of the rest of it would have happened.
 
archimedes said:
We're never celtic, even for a while.
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So you are claiming celtic never used bets despite them admiting to it and the sfa taking no action against them.i take it that's what you mean by your post.or perhaps you could take the time to explain it if you Don,t mind.
Turrabear said:
So we're celtic for a while.
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Or are you claiming that celtic did use bets but not on the scale rangers did.
 
Celtic used one EBT, for their Brazillian Superstar ((C)Daily Record). I still have a suspicion that it wa sthem who drew HMRC's attention to us when they were pulled up on it
 
Turrabear said:
So you are claiming celtic never used bets despite them admiting to it and the sfa taking no action against them.i take it that's what you mean by your post.or perhaps you could take the time to explain it if you Don,t mind.

Or are you claiming that celtic did use bets but not on the scale rangers did.
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Celtic used 1 EBT from memory, for Juninho.

When we were using EBTs Celtic players were using Film Partnerships.

Now so many of them used them you would have to conclude the club had some influence on advising them how to avoid tax, but crucially the club wasn’t legally involved.

Meanwhile Murray was gambling everything on EBTs having a good ending.
 
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