Are Rangers actually the fourth oldest football club in Scotland?

Nacho Novo

Well-Known Member
Was doing some research last night and found that Dumbarton (who claim they were founded on 23 December 1872 on their official Facebook page) have for years stated that they are the fourth oldest club in Scotland behind Queen's Park in 1867, Kilmarnock in 1869 and Stranraer in 1870, with Rangers coming after them despite both clubs both being founded in 1872.

The difference in foundation dates below would say otherwise.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Dumbartonfc/about/
23 December 1872

https://club1872.co.uk/blog-public/in-the-spirit-of-the-gallant-pioneers/
Late March 1872

If anyone can provide any further details then please comment, could be a massive find for the history of Rangers that Dumbarton have tried to keep quiet!
 

johnkp

Well-Known Member
Iain Duff, in his excellent book 'Temple of Dreams - The Changing Face Of Ibrox' wrote "Recent history books suggest that the four founders came up with the idea of forming a club as they went for a stroll in Glasgow’s West End in February 1872. After several weeks of training at Fleshers’ Haugh, they played their first match against Callander FC in May of that year at the same venue."

Another wee gem from that book - referring to Rangers' time at Kinning Park - said that, "As Rangers had joined the Football Association in 1885, they were entitled to play in the Cup competition south of the border. In October 1886 – a week after being knocked out of the Scottish Cup – Rangers travelled to Liverpool to beat Everton 1–0 in front of 6,000 in the first round.

The subsequent draws were kind to Rangers, giving them four successive ties at Kinning Park against Church, Cowlairs, Lincoln City and Old Westminsters, each one resulting in home victory. The sixth-round match against Old Westminsters on 19 February 1887 was the last official game at Kinning Park, and the 5–1 victory was a fitting finale.

In the semi-final, Rangers went down 3–1 to Aston Villa at Crewe, and it was to be their last-ever match in the competition.




The SFA were alarmed at the number of Scottish clubs playing in the English tournament and in May of that year banned their members from taking part."

I'm sure I read, years ago, that Rangers' membership of the FA had never been officially terminated. Pity.
 

Nacho Novo

Well-Known Member

Gauche.

Well-Known Member
Interesting,thanks for posting,with regard to Kilmarnock,does anyone know when they actually played their first game?
I remember reading years ago they originally played rugby,or were an offshoot of a rugby club,and despite the 1869 date,they didn't actually play football until a later date.
Could be an inaccuracy and the internet can be untrustworthy,can any football history buffs confirm?
 

Nacho Novo

Well-Known Member
Iain Duff, in his excellent book 'Temple of Dreams - The Changing Face Of Ibrox' wrote "Recent history books suggest that the four founders came up with the idea of forming a club as they went for a stroll in Glasgow’s West End in February 1872. After several weeks of training at Fleshers’ Haugh, they played their first match against Callander FC in May of that year at the same venue."

Another wee gem from that book - referring to Rangers' time at Kinning Park - said that, "As Rangers had joined the Football Association in 1885, they were entitled to play in the Cup competition south of the border. In October 1886 – a week after being knocked out of the Scottish Cup – Rangers travelled to Liverpool to beat Everton 1–0 in front of 6,000 in the first round.

The subsequent draws were kind to Rangers, giving them four successive ties at Kinning Park against Church, Cowlairs, Lincoln City and Old Westminsters, each one resulting in home victory. The sixth-round match against Old Westminsters on 19 February 1887 was the last official game at Kinning Park, and the 5–1 victory was a fitting finale.

In the semi-final, Rangers went down 3–1 to Aston Villa at Crewe, and it was to be their last-ever match in the competition.




The SFA were alarmed at the number of Scottish clubs playing in the English tournament and in May of that year banned their members from taking part."

I'm sure I read, years ago, that Rangers' membership of the FA had never been officially terminated. Pity.
I was having this conversation about Rangers formation date with @The Moonlighter who runs The Founders Trail and he has found information that former Rangers player William 'True Blue' Dunlop in 1881 who said, “Thus ended their first match against Callander at the latter end of May 1872 some two months after the inauguration of the Club”.

You can't get anymore accurate than that! Late March of 1872 seems to be the time at which Rangers were formed going by reports.
 

johnkp

Well-Known Member
I was having this conversation about Rangers formation date with @The Moonlighter who runs The Founders Trail and he has found information that former Rangers player William 'True Blue' Dunlop in 1881 who said, “Thus ended their first match against Callander at the latter end of May 1872 some two months after the inauguration of the Club”.

You can't get anymore accurate than that! Late March of 1872 seems to be the time at which Rangers were formed going by reports.
If @The Moonlighter says it, that's good enough for me!
 

BF4_Loyal

Well-Known Member
I really don’t know why I thought this but I thought Kilmarnock were the oldest club in Scotland?

Also why was it said we were formed in 1873 but then changed to 1872?
 

squaddie-bear

Well-Known Member
I always find it fascinating when you see the pre-war line ups - 2-3-5 formations?


2 defenders vs 5 attackers.


how did that actually work? :))
 

squaddie-bear

Well-Known Member
I really don’t know why I thought this but I thought Kilmarnock were the oldest club in Scotland?

Also why was it said we were formed in 1873 but then changed to 1872?
i think some historian/guy writing a book just decided it to make it 1873 so it was the 50th anniversary when his book came out!

I am sure that Heart& Hand did a podcast that detailed the reasoning behind the different dates.
 

Nacho Novo

Well-Known Member
i think some historian/guy writing a book just decided it to make it 1873 so it was the 50th anniversary when his book came out!

I am sure that Heart& Hand did a podcast that detailed the reasoning behind the different dates.
Surely not :eek: Did Rangers not only start acknowledging 1872 as the year of foundation around as recently as 2009 or so?
 

Rangerista

Well-Known Member
Surely not :eek: Did Rangers not only start acknowledging 1872 as the year of foundation around as recently as 2009 or so?
John Allan was late in finishing his history of the first 50 years of Rangers. So, he simply changed the date of the club's foundation and bingo, embarrassment avoided.

 

Polar bear

Well-Known Member
I always find it fascinating when you see the pre-war line ups - 2-3-5 formations?


2 defenders vs 5 attackers.


how did that actually work? :))
Your centralhalf back was anchored between your two full backs.Your other two halfbacks defended also when needed,and your two
inside forwards 8 and 10 did most of the donkey work carrying the ball from
defense to attack.
 

Paisleyprod

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
I read somewhere that around 1872 there were around 10 clubs. I'm guessing many are defunct such as vale of leven and Callendar
 
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Paisleybear30

Active Member
Iain Duff, in his excellent book 'Temple of Dreams - The Changing Face Of Ibrox' wrote "Recent history books suggest that the four founders came up with the idea of forming a club as they went for a stroll in Glasgow’s West End in February 1872. After several weeks of training at Fleshers’ Haugh, they played their first match against Callander FC in May of that year at the same venue."

Another wee gem from that book - referring to Rangers' time at Kinning Park - said that, "As Rangers had joined the Football Association in 1885, they were entitled to play in the Cup competition south of the border. In October 1886 – a week after being knocked out of the Scottish Cup – Rangers travelled to Liverpool to beat Everton 1–0 in front of 6,000 in the first round.

The subsequent draws were kind to Rangers, giving them four successive ties at Kinning Park against Church, Cowlairs, Lincoln City and Old Westminsters, each one resulting in home victory. The sixth-round match against Old Westminsters on 19 February 1887 was the last official game at Kinning Park, and the 5–1 victory was a fitting finale.

In the semi-final, Rangers went down 3–1 to Aston Villa at Crewe, and it was to be their last-ever match in the competition.




The SFA were alarmed at the number of Scottish clubs playing in the English tournament and in May of that year banned their members from taking part."

I'm sure I read, years ago, that Rangers' membership of the FA had never been officially terminated. Pity.
That gives us a win percentage of 85.71% in the FA cup so surely right up there as the best in history?
 

Cooperfan

Well-Known Member
How many league clubs in the world's are older?

Notts County used to be the oldest. Who are the oldest now?
 

Nacho Novo

Well-Known Member
John Allan was late in finishing his history of the first 50 years of Rangers. So, he simply changed the date of the club's foundation and bingo, embarrassment avoided.

Surely someone at Rangers must have questioned that at the time? As I said previously, I'm sure it was 2009 or so that we started using 1872 as our year of foundation? I might be wrong, but for Rangers to go through near 140 years of history thinking 1873 was when we were founded is a story in itself!
 

Rangerista

Well-Known Member
Surely someone at Rangers must have questioned that at the time? As I said previously, I'm sure it was 2009 or so that we started using 1872 as our year of foundation? I might be wrong, but for Rangers to go through near 140 years of history thinking 1873 was when we were founded is a story in itself!
Ask Grand Master Suck and The Moonlighter, there was a surprising resistance from the club when the modern research confirmed the club's true foundation date.
 

Wittenberg

Active Member
The Wikipedia piece is excellent and very informative, good to see Glasgow Accies and West of Scotland clubs both founded in 1865. The crowning glory is the final sentence in the section about the Rangers, it simply says-"the world's most successful club". Required reading for the bheasts.
 

Saltcoatsblu

Well-Known Member
Surely someone at Rangers must have questioned that at the time? As I said previously, I'm sure it was 2009 or so that we started using 1872 as our year of foundation? I might be wrong, but for Rangers to go through near 140 years of history thinking 1873 was when we were founded is a story in itself!
2010 it was, first printed on the team sheet v Kilmarnock[url=https://postimages.org/]upload png[/URL]
 

GF1

Well-Known Member
I always wondered who the first teams played against in the early days with years between teams being formed. Was it other teams who are now defunct?
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
Right back (2) v left wing (11)
Centre half (5) v centre forward (9)
Left back (3) v right wing (7)
Right half (4) v inside left (10)
Left half (6) v inside right (8)
 

Woodrow Call

Well-Known Member
Surely someone at Rangers must have questioned that at the time? As I said previously, I'm sure it was 2009 or so that we started using 1872 as our year of foundation? I might be wrong, but for Rangers to go through near 140 years of history thinking 1873 was when we were founded is a story in itself!
I'v asked it loads of times on here and never had a proper answer. Guys like Robert Marshall had 73 in their user name.
 

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