Argentine Superliga

Former Boca and Newell's defender, Juan Simon:

DgFBscDW0AA5kwd.jpg:large


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Simón
 
Dybala appeared at the press conference today, still trying to live down the comment that it's not easy to play with Messi. All very diplomatic responses with the required deference to Messi and being optimistic about his own chances of playing in Russia.

Also, an interesting article in Clarin about how no one can say no to Messi - with the exception perhaps of the "small table" (Mascherano, Aguero, Biglia, Guzman, Di Maria, Banega, Rojo).

Curious to see opinion beginning to emerge of Messi's influence on the team. Obviously Dybala's appearance isn't connected but it was interesting to see press conference and article side-by-side.

A win on Thursday and it's forgotten. Until the next poor performance.
 
On this day in 1902 Boca and Argentina legend Juan Evaristo was born. He helped Boca to their first title, he played in the first World Cup Final and alongside his brother, Mario, became the first siblings to do so.

DgJbXEsW0AUyWM-.jpg
 
Argentina: Wilfredo Caballero; Gabriel Mercado, Nicolás Otamendi y Nicolás Tagliafico; Eduardo Salvio, Enzo Pérez, Javier Mascherano y Marcos Acuña; Lionel Messi y Maximiliano Meza; Sergio Agüero. DT: Jorge Sampaoli.

Pavon on the bench again as Sampaoli goes for a 3-4-2-1.
 
Argentina: Wilfredo Caballero; Gabriel Mercado, Nicolás Otamendi y Nicolás Tagliafico; Eduardo Salvio, Enzo Pérez, Javier Mascherano y Marcos Acuña; Lionel Messi y Maximiliano Meza; Sergio Agüero. DT: Jorge Sampaoli.

Pavon on the bench again as Sampaoli goes for a 3-4-2-1.

Who knows what will happen but the midfield still looks an issue - that Perez comes in, when he wasn't initially selected, tells a story in itself.
 
Who knows what will happen but the midfield still looks an issue - that Perez comes in, when he wasn't initially selected, tells a story in itself.

I fear Argentina will concede and it wouldn't be a surprise if it's a couple. Hopefully they can put away the opportunities they get.
 

I note the mention of only Kempes playing outside the country. I had a look at the squad and was surprised to see no Boca players among the 22, despite the club's Libertadores success.

EDIT: Tarantini is listed in the squad as a 'free agent' due to a contractual dispute at Boca leaving him without a club in the months prior to the World Cup.
 
Last edited:
I note the mention of only Kempes playing outside the country. I had a look at the squad and was surprised to see no Boca players among the 22, despite the club's Libertadores success.

EDIT: Tarantini is listed in the squad as a 'free agent' due to a contractual dispute at Boca leaving him without a club in the months prior to the World Cup.

Not 100% on this, but I think there was a ruling that players outside the country couldn't be selected. This was changed for Kempes as he was the best player.

Hadn't noticed that about Boca players. Can't offer an explanation, but from memory, I don't think of any real howlers in selection - Bochini was the big name left out for me that I would have selected (retrospectively).

Will have a read of the article later. Thanks.
 
It's a shame how it is ending for a number of players but that was shambolic. Even worse than anticipated.

Sampaoli taking responsibility for the defeat in the press conference. Again, though, he talks of not providing the correct team for Messi.

He apologises to the support who came to Russia. I saw a report that stewards had to step in to move fans away from the bench area as the goals went it - a bottle of water also thrown at the manager.
 
It's a shame how it is ending for a number of players but that was shambolic. Even worse than anticipated.

Sampaoli taking responsibility for the defeat in the press conference. Again, though, he talks of not providing the correct team for Messi.

He apologises to the support who came to Russia. I saw a report that stewards had to step in to move fans away from the bench area as the goals went it - a bottle of water also thrown at the manager.

How can he provide the correct team when he doesn't know what the correct team is? That's two games with very different formations and selections. Both of us called these performances weeks ago so it isn't really a surprise.

It's sad to think Nigeria could be Messi's last game in an Argentina strip. For some of the others (Higuain, Di Maria etc....), though, the manager bottled it. He either let Messi influence him or he wasn't prepared to take the necessary action required - qualification had been abysmal so these performances shouldn't fool anyone. Sampaoli is probably safe, though, as I don't think AFA could afford to sack him.
 
Sampaoli: 'I don't know if what we feel is shame, it's more pain ... the plan for this match didn't come off, and now it's double or nothing on the final game.'

Sampaoli: 'We came with a system, I felt that in the first half we neutralised them well and dominated in some ways, but couldn't get the ball to Leo enough. When Cristian [Pavón] went on I had to change the system slightly, because we had two guys "outside".'

Sampaoli: 'The plan to take the game to them went well ... what we lacked was variations in our play that could have created chances.'

Sampaoli: 'The first goal was a huge blow to us ... now there's one game left and we've got to be the best we can be to see whether Argentina can reach the second round.'

Jorge Sampaoli on Messi's struggles: "Because of the reality of the Argentina squad, it sort of clouds Leo’s brilliance. Leo is limited because the team doesn’t gel with him as ideally as it should"

Sampaoli: 'We weren't able to find Leo. We work all the time with the aim of getting Leo the ball, but our opponents work all the same to try and make sure it doesn't reach him.'

Sampaoli: 'I can't do anything but ask forgiveness [from the fans]. This result leaves us really uncomfortable. I tried to do the best I could, and I've not found a way to give them what they want.'
 
Sergio Agüero just asked about Sampaoli's assertion that the strategy failed, and the players failed to adapt. His reply: 'He can say what he likes'.
 
An apparent audio clip of Simeone talking to his assistant German Burgos has been leaked and reported in Clarin:

"What is happening now, it's what unfortunately has happened to the national team in the last four years," Simeone allegedly said. "Anarchy, no leadership from the staff nor from those that guide her... I see a team that is lost. The team is bad, bad."

"We all always say that the players are the most important in this game. But they are 60 percent, not 90 percent of it, because when the coaches say we've screwed up, it's certainly worse than when the players screw up. Then it means that the coach has a lot of say in all of this."

"Tell me the truth German [Burgos], the goalkeeper had already done something like that," Simeone said. "He did against Spain, he did it against Italy... and I told you that it's a pity that he was not scored upon so that they realise that if you screw up at the World Cup, it's a goal."

"We don't realise that Messi is very good but I clarify that he is very good because he is accompanied by extraordinary footballers," he said. "My question is: If you had to choose between Messi and [Cristiano] Ronaldo for a normal team, who would you choose?"
 
An apparent audio clip of Simeone talking to his assistant German Burgos has been leaked and reported in Clarin:

"What is happening now, it's what unfortunately has happened to the national team in the last four years," Simeone allegedly said. "Anarchy, no leadership from the staff nor from those that guide her... I see a team that is lost. The team is bad, bad."

"We all always say that the players are the most important in this game. But they are 60 percent, not 90 percent of it, because when the coaches say we've screwed up, it's certainly worse than when the players screw up. Then it means that the coach has a lot of say in all of this."

"Tell me the truth German [Burgos], the goalkeeper had already done something like that," Simeone said. "He did against Spain, he did it against Italy... and I told you that it's a pity that he was not scored upon so that they realise that if you screw up at the World Cup, it's a goal."

"We don't realise that Messi is very good but I clarify that he is very good because he is accompanied by extraordinary footballers," he said. "My question is: If you had to choose between Messi and [Cristiano] Ronaldo for a normal team, who would you choose?"

If true, that will create a shit-storm in Argentina. Although, to be fair, there is already one happening.

Article looking at the reaction to last night from the Argentine press:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...croatia-nigeria-iceland-qualify-a8410986.html
 
If true, that will create a shit-storm in Argentina. Although, to be fair, there is already one happening.

Article looking at the reaction to last night from the Argentine press:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...croatia-nigeria-iceland-qualify-a8410986.html

Everyone is venting from Kempes to Ardiles on Twitter. In among Kempes' criticisms was another interesting point:

"They're all 'Messi's friends' but not 'Messi's teammates' - this is the difference."

Have you seen any suggestion of Messi carrying an injury or being ill? Perhaps, he's just become overwhelmed by the pressure.
 
Everyone is venting from Kempes to Ardiles on Twitter. In among Kempes' criticisms was another interesting point:

"They're all 'Messi's friends' but not 'Messi's teammates' - this is the difference."

Have you seen any suggestion of Messi carrying an injury or being ill? Perhaps, he's just become overwhelmed by the pressure.

Not read anything about any potential illness or injury. Before the game he looked stressed so maybe the pressure is taking its toll.

Ultimately, though, the management and team seem too scared to take responsibility and are leaving it all to Messi. Martino is the only one who wanted the team to attack as a unit and not have to filter everything through Messi.
 
Everyone is venting from Kempes to Ardiles on Twitter. In among Kempes' criticisms was another interesting point:

"They're all 'Messi's friends' but not 'Messi's teammates' - this is the difference."

Have you seen any suggestion of Messi carrying an injury or being ill? Perhaps, he's just become overwhelmed by the pressure.

This picture, during the anthems, says a lot:

DgP7HXmW4AEW7eE.jpg:large
 
TyC saying that Armani will start in goal for the Nigeria game. No surprise although plenty of time for a change of mind.
 
Reports 'breaking' on Fox about the divide in the Argentine camp - basically the 'old guard' vs. Sampaoli with the group of players insistent that they should play together for the last time.

Tapia confirming again, though, that Sampaoli will remain in charge.
 
Last edited:
Reports 'breaking' on Fox about the divide in the Argentine captain - basically the 'old guard' vs. Sampaoli with the group of players insistent that they should play together for the last time.

Tapia confirming again, though, that Sampaoli will remain in charge.

Been reading reports about this. Pavon's agent having to deny the player had a fight with teammates. TyC reporting Sampaoli is no longer picking the team etc.........Sometimes you wonder who has come out of this World Cup worse: the Argentina team or the Argentinian press?
 
Been reading reports about this. Pavon's agent having to deny the player had a fight with teammates. TyC reporting Sampaoli is no longer picking the team etc.........Sometimes you wonder who has come out of this World Cup worse: the Argentina team or the Argentinian press?

The Argentines certainly love WhatsApp - Macri + Aguero communicating and various audios emerging including one where the plot to instate Burruchaga is revealed.

Pavon punch-up apparently with Mascherano. Pavon's brother at training today... with a photo of Mascherano. All is good.

A big moment for the AFA and how much they believe in Sampaoli. After all, this tournament ends the international careers of many and a rebuild is necessary. He has a contract through to 2022 and I read that it would cost 16 million to remove him now (I've maybe misunderstood that figure).
 
The Argentines certainly love WhatsApp - Macri + Aguero communicating and various audios emerging including one where the plot to instate Burruchaga is revealed.

Pavon punch-up apparently with Mascherano. Pavon's brother at training today... with a photo of Mascherano. All is good.

A big moment for the AFA and how much they believe in Sampaoli. After all, this tournament ends the international careers of many and a rebuild is necessary. He has a contract through to 2022 and I read that it would cost 16 million to remove him now (I've maybe misunderstood that figure).

Thanks for the additional updates - missed some of them.

Doesn't really matter what the figure is, AFA can't afford to pay up his 4 year contract. Only way he will be gone, imo, is if Messi decides he wants another cycle and vocally says he wont do it if Sampaoli is manager.

In all reality a few international careers should have finished pre instead of post World Cup.

Can't wait for the post-World Cup conspiracy theories - we think they are bad in Scotland but nothing tops what will come out of Argentina. :D
 
Doesn't really matter what the figure is, AFA can't afford to pay up his 4 year contract. Only way he will be gone, imo, is if Messi decides he wants another cycle and vocally says he wont do it if Sampaoli is manager.

It would be very interesting to see the public response. I'm not sure Messi will be in a position to dictate any longer.
 
It would be very interesting to see the public response. I'm not sure Messi will be in a position to dictate any longer.

Bit too pissed to remember the translation, but it does look like the players have made the bed (if I've even remembered the English correctly :D) for Sampaoli.

Maybe not, but I think he is the only person who could. Aguero had a slight dig after the Croatia game and nobody is backing him (as far as I'm aware).

Interesting to see if any stories come out after the World Cup about squad selection. This was a clusterfcuk so I wonder who will throw who under the bus.
 
Today marks the 50th anniversary of the worst tragedy in Argentinain football history: the tragedy of Gate 12.

https://footballpink.net/2015/05/27/river-vs-boca-68-the-tragedy-of-la-puerta-12/

Documentary 'Puerta 12', trailer:


I haven't seen it and I'm only aware of it due to a La Nacion article today:

https://www.lanacion.com.ar/2146368...s-motivos-que-la-causaron-aun-son-un-misterio

From what they say, it appears to have been an unfortunate sequence of events. Probably wasn't helped with Boca fans shouting Peronist songs and a testy police presence.
 
An apparent audio clip of Simeone talking to his assistant German Burgos has been leaked and reported in Clarin:

"What is happening now, it's what unfortunately has happened to the national team in the last four years," Simeone allegedly said. "Anarchy, no leadership from the staff nor from those that guide her... I see a team that is lost. The team is bad, bad."

"We all always say that the players are the most important in this game. But they are 60 percent, not 90 percent of it, because when the coaches say we've screwed up, it's certainly worse than when the players screw up. Then it means that the coach has a lot of say in all of this."

"Tell me the truth German [Burgos], the goalkeeper had already done something like that," Simeone said. "He did against Spain, he did it against Italy... and I told you that it's a pity that he was not scored upon so that they realise that if you screw up at the World Cup, it's a goal."

"We don't realise that Messi is very good but I clarify that he is very good because he is accompanied by extraordinary footballers," he said. "My question is: If you had to choose between Messi and [Cristiano] Ronaldo for a normal team, who would you choose?"

As much as I admire Ronaldo, I enjoy watching Messi far more but it’s a valid question isn’t it?

As wonderful as he is, can Messi function in and lift an imperfect team the way Ronaldo can and (to an even greater extent) the way Maradona did? Does his particular genius always need a very sympathetic environment? I don’t follow Argentina the way drg and you do but it’s always been my suspicion.
 
As much as I admire Ronaldo, I enjoy watching Messi far more but it’s a valid question isn’t it?

As wonderful as he is, can Messi function in and lift an imperfect team the way Ronaldo can and (to an even greater extent) the way Maradona did? Does his particular genius always need a very sympathetic environment? I don’t follow Argentina the way drg and you do but it’s always been my suspicion.

It's a tough one as I think Messi is a better player than Ronaldo, (Maradona is still the best I've seen), but he has had a better collective around him domestically than Ronaldo has.

This may sound a strange one, but ultimately Messi may be judged on the failings of Higuain. From memory, I'm pretty sure Higuain missed clear cut chances at 0-0 in the World Cup and Copa America finals. Would fans be looking at his recent performances differently if those chances, and potential victories, had gone in.

Also, in the the recent qualifying campaign, if it hadn't been for Messi then Argentina wouldn't be at the World Cup.

The biggest problem for Argentina is that managers, Martino aside, have tried to filter everything through Messi. This stifles Messi, teams can counter this at the highest level, and the team (any chance of thinking for yourself is gone - give the ball to Messi). Whereas, Portugal know Ronaldo is the best player but there is better team framework.

This is before we get into the accusations (albeit there is a degree of truth) of Messi having an undue influence on squad/team selection. Couldn't tell you about the influence Ronaldo has on Portugal.
 
It's a tough one as I think Messi is a better player than Ronaldo, (Maradona is still the best I've seen), but he has had a better collective around him domestically than Ronaldo has.

This may sound a strange one, but ultimately Messi may be judged on the failings of Higuain. From memory, I'm pretty sure Higuain missed clear cut chances at 0-0 in the World Cup and Copa America finals. Would fans be looking at his recent performances differently if those chances, and potential victories, had gone in.

Also, in the the recent qualifying campaign, if it hadn't been for Messi then Argentina wouldn't be at the World Cup.

The biggest problem for Argentina is that managers, Martino aside, have tried to filter everything through Messi. This stifles Messi, teams can counter this at the highest level, and the team (any chance of thinking for yourself is gone - give the ball to Messi). Whereas, Portugal know Ronaldo is the best player but there is better team framework.

This is before we get into the accusations (albeit there is a degree of truth) of Messi having an undue influence on squad/team selection. Couldn't tell you about the influence Ronaldo has on Portugal.

We’re obviously agreed on Maradona. It’s old guy talk again but anyone saying anything else is obviously wrong. Maradona could obviously put anyone’s lights out if given the ball in the last third but he could also hurt you from very deep in a way even Messi could only dream of. And he did it at a time defenders could tackle from behind and were allowed to foul with impunity.

I think the rest of what you say also makes sense. Trying to filter everything through him looks to have been counterproductive and the missed chances of others are not his fault.

That said though, I reckon Ronaldo’s ability to attack crosses and his manic desire to get shots off just translates better to an average team than Messi’s more refined artistry does.
 
Reported team vs. Nigeria:

Armani; Salvio, Mercado, Otamendi, Tagliafico; Banega, Mascherano, Enzo Pérez; Messi, Di María; Higuain.

Mascherano and Biglia attended the press conference. Nothing much said beyond the players can't "control the uncontrollable" and that managers always discuss decisions with players.
 
Yesterday, 12th June, was the 92nd birthday of the great River Plate goalkeeper, Amadeo Carrizo. Part of the great La Maquina side, he was also the goalkeeper the day La Nuestra died: the 6-1 defeat to Czechoslovakia at the 1958 World Cup. A great pioneer for how goalkeepers played, he was voted the best South American keeper of the 20th century.

Dfd27ZgXcAEuDYp.jpg
I hope I'm not accused of teaching my granny to suck eggs, but a search of La Nuestra took me to this article. The subject I'm sure has been covered earlier in the thread, but with the possible elimination of La Albiceleste a likely possibility, it gives a useful summary of the importance of football to Argentina: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....story-most-football-obsessed-nation-earth?amp
 
I hope I'm not accused of teaching my granny to suck eggs, but a search of La Nuestra took me to this article. The subject I'm sure has been covered earlier in the thread, but with the possible elimination of La Albiceleste a likely possibility, it gives a useful summary of the importance of football to Argentina: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newstatesman.com/politics/sport/2016/09/tainted-love-history-most-football-obsessed-nation-earth?amp

Always a pleasure to read far more skillful writers than myself wax lyrical about AWDF. If it encourages one more person from FF to buy it then post as many reviews as possible.:)

The loss of that match against Czechoslovakia cannot be overemphasised. It is comparable to Brazil's defeat to Germany in the last World Cup. That day the Golden Era of Argentinian football died.
 
We’re obviously agreed on Maradona. It’s old guy talk again but anyone saying anything else is obviously wrong. Maradona could obviously put anyone’s lights out if given the ball in the last third but he could also hurt you from very deep in a way even Messi could only dream of. And he did it at a time defenders could tackle from behind and were allowed to foul with impunity.

I think the rest of what you say also makes sense. Trying to filter everything through him looks to have been counterproductive and the missed chances of others are not his fault.

That said though, I reckon Ronaldo’s ability to attack crosses and his manic desire to get shots off just translates better to an average team than Messi’s more refined artistry does.

Who would you buy for Ibrox at this time? I would probably lean towards Ronaldo given what he's developed into. I think Messi is a better player, though.

Ronaldo has a team that works with him in a way the Argentine national side do not. As the Dr mentions, however, a chance taken and a penalty kick scored and Messi's record would have a World Cup and a couple of Copa Americas on it.

It's a funny old game...
 
Tuesday's referee confirmed as Caneyt Cakir, the Turkish official who oversaw the 2014 WC semi-final win vs. Holland. And officiated the 2015 Champions League Final which Messi and Barcelona won. Oh the omens...
 
Back
Top