Brian Clough after Forest’s relegation.

jprfc

Well-Known Member
Im old enough to remember the two European Cup wins and always had a soft spot for Notts Forest after that.Clough was obviously a great manager but his assistant Peter Taylor must be given great credit too.

Any stories you here about him are hilarious and Mark Crossleys’s podcast about him is just unbelievable because of the things he said
I loved the Adidas strip
 

jtc

Well-Known Member
I can’t say one was better than the other because there is no base point to start a judgement.
I have to admit to having a soft spot for Forest having seen then many times since the early ‘70s. What is often forgotten is that Forest were a mid table 2nd division side when Clough took over. He got them promoted and won the First Division first time of asking and then two European Cup wins along with League Cup victories.

As well as playing good football he had an ability to take average players and make them great team players. His captain at Forest was John McGovern, Larry Lloyd at centre half, John O’Hare and Ian Bowyer were bang average players that he manage to get tunes from while getting the best from talents like Robertson and O’Neil.
They only won promotion because wolves beat Bolton and stopped Bolton claiming 3rd place.
A few months after they went to wolves( who had gone up as champions) early in the season and dismantled them .It ended 3.2 but they were 3 up at one stage and were on fire .
 

Scoot

Well-Known Member
His inability to pick a striker was undoubtedly his Achilles heel. He had some success in bringing young strikers through, Peter Withe, Gary Birtles and probably the best of the bunch Tony Woodcock. However his dealings in the transfer market was characterised by overpaying for young and ultimately unsuccessful strikers Wallace, Justin Fashanu are two that come to mind.
Ian Wallace was reasonably prolific for Forest although big Justin was a complete dud. I think it was the gradual breaking up of that great side that coincided with Wallace's stint with them.
 

oranje-viola

Well-Known Member
As a Rangers fan who lives in Nottingham and frequently vists the city ground on many occasion, even in division 2, every season. I’ve had friends who played for Nottingham forest and want the best for the club, revered brian clough and enjoyed his football experience. The fact he says “he’s a good socialist” disgusts me as I don’t believe there is such a thing.
Whilst some would argue that such a rare and noble species does still exist somewhere, there’s no doubt Clough wasn’t one of them. Too fond of ‘bung’ was ol’ big head to be giving himself that epithet
 

Kowloon72

Well-Known Member
As a Rangers fan who lives in Nottingham and frequently vists the city ground on many occasion, even in division 2, every season. I’ve had friends who played for Nottingham forest and want the best for the club, revered brian clough and enjoyed his football experience. The fact he says “he’s a good socialist” disgusts me as I don’t believe there is such a thing.

What about Walter Smith?

 

Smkz23

Well-Known Member
It's an excellent book but it doesn't claim to be factual.

The subtitle is 'An English Fairy Story' and the author David Peace acknowledged in the book, 'This novel is another fiction, based on another fact.' (His previous novel, GB84, was a fiction Bad as on some facts of the Miner's Strike.)
That didn’t stop the author being successfully sued by Johnny Giles due to how he was portrayed in the book.
 

bearmind

Well-Known Member
Legendary manager was Brian Clough. In drawing comparisons with Bob Paisley and Alex Ferguson it could be said that the difference is that Clough took a provincial team in Nottingham Forest to the greatest heights in winning European Cup twice. Nearly achieved the same with Derby County in making them a great provincial team too and won a league title there.

However, he managed in the era of the transfer bung, the brown paper bag exchanged in the motorway cafe as a gift for managerial transfer services rendered. Allegedly El Tel Venables and George Graham and more were also not averse to 'dipping their beaks' in as well. Clough was allegedly involved in this too and perhaps this overshadowed his greatness.

 

Smkz23

Well-Known Member
Legendary manager was Brian Clough. In drawing comparisons with Bob Paisley and Alex Ferguson it could be said that the difference is that Clough took a provincial team in Nottingham Forest to the greatest heights in winning European Cup twice. Nearly achieved the same with Derby County in making them a great provincial team too and won a league title there.

However, he managed in the era of the transfer bung, the brown paper bag exchanged in the motorway cafe as a gift for managerial transfer services rendered. Allegedly El Tel Venables and George Graham and more were also not averse to 'dipping their beaks' in as well. Clough was allegedly involved in this too and perhaps this overshadowed his greatness.

Nothing alleged about George Graham, it cost him the Arsenal job.
 

JMCK

Well-Known Member
Helluva shame to see the end.

Hardly a surprise for the players to give up the ghost a bit and end up relegated.

For me, the greatest manager of all time.
The more I read about him, and watched things I would agree with that.
 

JMCK

Well-Known Member
I can’t say one was better than the other because there is no base point to start a judgement.
I have to admit to having a soft spot for Forest having seen then many times since the early ‘70s. What is often forgotten is that Forest were a mid table 2nd division side when Clough took over. He got them promoted and won the First Division first time of asking and then two European Cup wins along with League Cup victories.

As well as playing good football he had an ability to take average players and make them great team players. His captain at Forest was John McGovern, Larry Lloyd at centre half, John O’Hare and Ian Bowyer were bang average players that he manage to get tunes from while getting the best from talents like Robertson and O’Neil.
I think it was his ability to know a player's strengths and have them playing to that; if they couldn't do that then he woukdn't have them. This particular point has come up in interviews, and might be why he relied on the acute eye of Peter Taylor. As an aside, I would recommend the book, I Believe in Miracles; perhaps the best football I've ever read.
 

Son Of Laudrup

Active Member
The man is an absolute legend, I’m lucky to have met him twice, love the guy , but he was barking,
Some of his quotes were brilliant
“ I’m not saying I’m the best manager, but I’m in the top 1!”
Player goes up to him and says “ boss why am I in the 2nd team? “ clough replies “ cos we don’t have a 3rd team!”
 

LJ50

Well-Known Member
It's an excellent book but it doesn't claim to be factual.

The subtitle is 'An English Fairy Story' and the author David Peace acknowledged in the book, 'This novel is another fiction, based on another fact.' (His previous novel, GB84, was a fiction based on some facts of the Miner's Strike.)
Yeah, I understand the Clough family being upset at the portrayal, but no-one else has the right to moan IMO. Peace made clear (as he did for the Red Riding books and GB84, as you say) that it wasn’t a non-fiction book. As is his style, he used real events and real people as the basis for a story. Its a brilliant, engaging and well-written story; but it’s not a history.

I love watching old videos of Clough back. The very definition of a flawed genius and that particular interview is very sad to watch. I’m glad history seems to be remembering Clough for his achievements, rather than his flaws.
 

Noddy

Well-Known Member
Clough was a genius but Sir Alex has no equal, he is arguably the greatest manager of all time and is by the length of Paisley Road West, the finest manager these shores have produced.
Nonsense. Brian Clough took a provincial club and won two European Cups and two league titles (one with Derby) with a budget that was nowhere near Ferguson's.
 

immortal7

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Whilst some would argue that such a rare and noble species does still exist somewhere, there’s no doubt Clough wasn’t one of them. Too fond of ‘bung’ was ol’ big head to be giving himself that epithet

It's a ridiculous assertion, is there a good 'neo-conservative' or 'anarcho-capitalist'? Probably, if you agree with the ideology, probably not if you don't.

In a past life, SAF was a union man and socialist, he was also a cünt and a genius who built teams and inspired men to greater achievements than they could have dreamed of for 40 years.

“Team spirit is a form of socialism. I’m my own politics – I don’t go in for politics. But that kind of forms a camaraderie and it is a basis for socialism. When you hear people running down fellas that are socialists I think they are wrong. They don’t know what they are talking about…..I’m talking life. I’m not talking about politics in the true sense of politics…..I’m talking about humanity. People dealing with people and people helping people.”

“Probably the first socialist was Jesus Christ, of course.”

“The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.”

Bill Shankly
 

Oleg_McNoleg

Well-Known Member
His inability to pick a striker was undoubtedly his Achilles heel. He had some success in bringing young strikers through, Peter Withe, Gary Birtles and probably the best of the bunch Tony Woodcock. However his dealings in the transfer market was characterised by overpaying for young and ultimately unsuccessful strikers Wallace, Justin Fashanu are two that come to mind.
Peter Ward from Brighton another for the list. There was a phenomenal line he gave after signing Nigel Jemson that was along the lines of “I’ve not seen him but my wife likes him amd he’s recommended by my greengrocer”.
 

dublinbear

Well-Known Member
I believe in miracles is a great watch, book also very good.

provided you don’t kiss me by the journalist that covered Forest for 20 years is brilliant, and covers Clough’s alcoholism pretty honestly.
 

Corkinator

Well-Known Member
Whilst some would argue that such a rare and noble species does still exist somewhere, there’s no doubt Clough wasn’t one of them. Too fond of ‘bung’ was ol’ big head to be giving himself that epithet
I’m kind of forgetting being a socialist 30 years ago is very different to being a Socialist (extrem left Marxist) today.
 

Talktalk

Well-Known Member
Apropos of nothing, but I came across this on YouTube and thought it was worth sharing on here as a bit of a footballing curiosity.
Interview with Clough after Forest were relegated. You forget what a character Clough was - it’s almost like an actor playing a part. Hard to imagine how he’d fare in today’s media savvy world but I just think this is great whilst also very sad, given the benefit of hindsight.

And just to add, he was only 58 here!!!

Probably my non Rangers hero in football, what a man, his players would run through walls for him and he was loyal to those loyal to him but football changed and his style of management went away although Martin ONeill did it as sorts as the players would never see him in the training ground until the day before a match , If he did turn up the players or player he was there to see knew they were about to get a pre season crammed into a day.

Clough was asked one day about his love for Jaguar cars and if it sat right with him that him being a socialist but drove a dream car he replied “ of course I do young man as everyone should have one “.

Brian Rice worked under him for years and you can see Wee traces of Clough piping out now and again
 

Teuchterblue

Well-Known Member
The English F.A. blazers decided against giving him the job when Ramsey left because he wasn't a "Yes" man. Serves their right because they missed out on a genius who moulded a small, provincial team, full of misfits and journeymen, into 2-time EC winners.
I have some sympathy for the F.A. Clough was Clough. He was liable to call a dodgy Italian ref a 'dirty eye-tie' and bring up WWII after a bad tackle from a West German player. The F.A. caved in after an unfortunate comment from Glenn Hoddle, Clough would likely be Hoddle on steroids(with a dose of tourettes added in).
 

RaskolnikovBear

Active Member
Apropos of nothing, but I came across this on YouTube and thought it was worth sharing on here as a bit of a footballing curiosity.
Interview with Clough after Forest were relegated. You forget what a character Clough was - it’s almost like an actor playing a part. Hard to imagine how he’d fare in today’s media savvy world but I just think this is great whilst also very sad, given the benefit of hindsight.

And just to add, he was only 58 here!!!

I hope Clough is not remembered this way because in his glory days he was phenomenal . On a side note, imagine trying to bring alcohol as a new product to market today. It wouldn’t be allowed.
 

goaaaal

Well-Known Member
The kind of manager you'd run through a brick wall for .

Doesn't matter how many videos you watch his outlook was always upbeat despite the somewhat Bolshie attitude.

His way or Highway probably best sums him up as previous players always state .

He never sold himself short did Mr Clough,:) today's managers don't even have half his personality or manage a team with as much resentment of respect in equal measure .

Nigel Clough's recollections of the day to day growing up with Cloughie are littered with funny stories nowadays such an upbringing would have the do gooders clamouring to offer post stress councilling whereas Nigel sees nothing but good from it despite probably more than a few private setbacks in family terms given Clough Snrs situation with the bevvy .

He might have been in the running for the Scotland Job back in 86 but Wee Ernst n Glum Jum Farry wouldn't have allowed it like their equally backwards compadres at The FA in England .
 

Jaws

Well-Known Member
There’s a great deal to be admired about Brian Clough. Great player (strike rate is phenomenal!), career cut short by injury, and one of the best ever managers. To win the league with both Derby & Forest is beyond belief. To win the European cup and defend it with a provincial club is miraculous.

However there is another side to him, he could be a horrible bastard of the first order. The Leeds thing was an unnecessary ego trip that his closest ally, Peter Taylo, didn’t support, and his later falling out with Taylor was undignified. He liked to be portrayed as “straight talking” but blaming the Liverpool fans for Hillsborough was poor.

Outside of Rangers, he’s one of my football heroes but definitely falls into the “flawed genius“ category.
 

oranje-viola

Well-Known Member
It's a ridiculous assertion, is there a good 'neo-conservative' or 'anarcho-capitalist'? Probably, if you agree with the ideology, probably not if you don't.

In a past life, SAF was a union man and socialist, he was also a cünt and a genius who built teams and inspired men to greater achievements than they could have dreamed of for 40 years.

“Team spirit is a form of socialism. I’m my own politics – I don’t go in for politics. But that kind of forms a camaraderie and it is a basis for socialism. When you hear people running down fellas that are socialists I think they are wrong. They don’t know what they are talking about…..I’m talking life. I’m not talking about politics in the true sense of politics…..I’m talking about humanity. People dealing with people and people helping people.”

“Probably the first socialist was Jesus Christ, of course.”

“The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That’s how I see football, that’s how I see life.”

Bill Shankly
Don't know if Shankly was partial to his hands being greased or a brown envelope slipped under the desk, but theres no doubt Ferguson had his preferred agents were partials to skimming their dues off transfer deals amongst other shady machinations. He dipped his toes in too deep when it came to 'owning' racehorses however!

Great team builder, motivator and tactician as Fergie may have been, he was out for #1 at the end of the day. And yep regardless of any socialist ideals he may have founded his various team ethics on he's most definitely a 'cunt'

Shankly was before my time but given he's from a similar background as both my grandfathers were I like to of him as being above all the nefarious and shady shit and genuinely being a man of the - and of his - people and not partial to 'bungs' which are basically tantamount to stealing from the fans who pay their hard earned into the club coffers.
 
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immortal7

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
There’s a great deal to be admired about Brian Clough. Great player (strike rate is phenomenal!), career cut short by injury, and one of the best ever managers. To win the league with both Derby & Forest is beyond belief. To win the European cup and defend it with a provincial club is miraculous.

However there is another side to him, he could be a horrible bastard of the first order. The Leeds thing was an unnecessary ego trip that his closest ally, Peter Taylo, didn’t support, and his later falling out with Taylor was undignified. He liked to be portrayed as “straight talking” but blaming the Liverpool fans for Hillsborough was poor.

Outside of Rangers, he’s one of my football heroes but definitely falls into the “flawed genius“ category.

SAF has said and done terrible things too, no one is perfect, something seemingly forgotten these days online.
 

Armchair flautist

Well-Known Member
Love reading his quotes, but pissed myself at the one about Stuart Pearce, Pearce suffered concussion, Clough told the Forest physio to tell him he was Pele, and playing up front for the last 10 minutes lolol.
 

MO_TxTruBlu

Well-Known Member
His inability to pick a striker was undoubtedly his Achilles heel. He had some success in bringing young strikers through, Peter Withe, Gary Birtles and probably the best of the bunch Tony Woodcock. However his dealings in the transfer market was characterised by overpaying for young and ultimately unsuccessful strikers Wallace, Justin Fashanu are two that come to mind.
Two he got from Birmingham did okay for him.

Trevor Francis wasn't too bad.

Kenny Burns was average as a Striker, and Clough turned him into the most feared Centre Back in the game.
 

Noddy

Well-Known Member
Tony Woodcock told a story that he stormed into Clough's office after being dropped and shouted at him "why the f*ck am I playing in the reserves?" To which Clough replied "because you're too good for the third team" :))
 

Grant K

Well-Known Member
Two he got from Birmingham did okay for him.

Trevor Francis wasn't too bad.

Kenny Burns was average as a Striker, and Clough turned him into the most feared Centre Back in the game.

Not convinced that Francis was a striker although 28 goals from 70 appearances is a reasonable return. Burns was originally a centre half converted to a striker at Birmingham.
 
Not sure on that story, but remember seeing footage of him being on a football program (no idea, very old) and a Rangers fan in the crowd gets to ask him a question I think, and when Clough asks who he supports he wasn't complimentary at all, along the lines of "Rangers? That's not football," something like that. The Rangers fan says with an aye but "champions." It may well be the same story and I've misremembered it.
Video is here, it's basically what you said. It's one of those sad ones where he's clearly had a few though. Hard to know where his comments came from though, or if it was all banter and playing to the crowd.

 

Craigie

Well-Known Member
Think he physically grabbed a supporter that got on the field one year.

nowadays he would probably be arrested.
HarmoniousSmoggyCockatoo-size_restricted.gif
Did he not end up snogging the supporter?
 

MO_TxTruBlu

Well-Known Member
Not convinced that Francis was a striker although 28 goals from 70 appearances is a reasonable return. Burns was originally a centre half converted to a striker at Birmingham.
Fair enough if that's your opinion, those figures I believe are League appearances /Goals only.
Clough smashed the British transfer fee (by almost double) to secure Francis for Forest, making him the first British million-pound player.
He won 2 European Cups, scoring the winner in one of them.
In between winning those two European Cups, Francis went back to Detroit for another summer playing in the NASL, where once again he was named to the first XI alongside Johan Cruyff (LA), despite playing only half the season.
In his brief NASL career, Francis scored 36 goals in 33 regular season matches and had 18 assists, placing him one spot ahead of Pelé on the all-time scoring list, despite playing 23 fewer games.

Clough often played Francis on the right wing, rather than in his preferred position as a central attacker.
Despite this, and often plagued by injury, whereby he was sidelined for more than 6 months,
Clough managed to sell him to Man City for £1.2 million.

Like I said originally, Trevor Francis wasn't too bad.
 

Alex Venters

Well-Known Member
Paisley was a brilliant manager undeniably but Clough built his teams up from scratch, Nottingham Forest dominated Paisleys Liverpool for a few years and put them out of Europe,Nottingham Forest have only played 20 games in the European Cup but have won it twice some record.
Forest never dominated Liverpool. They were worthy champions in 1978, but never won it again. Liverpool dominated English football in the 1970's & 1980's.
 

Grant K

Well-Known Member
Fair enough if that's your opinion, those figures I believe are League appearances /Goals only.
Clough smashed the British transfer fee (by almost double) to secure Francis for Forest, making him the first British million-pound player.
He won 2 European Cups, scoring the winner in one of them.
In between winning those two European Cups, Francis went back to Detroit for another summer playing in the NASL, where once again he was named to the first XI alongside Johan Cruyff (LA), despite playing only half the season.
In his brief NASL career, Francis scored 36 goals in 33 regular season matches and had 18 assists, placing him one spot ahead of Pelé on the all-time scoring list, despite playing 23 fewer games.

Clough often played Francis on the right wing, rather than in his preferred position as a central attacker.
Despite this, and often plagued by injury, whereby he was sidelined for more than 6 months,
Clough managed to sell him to Man City for £1.2 million.

Like I said originally, Trevor Francis wasn't too bad.

And I agreed a very good player. However as you say Clough tended to play him in a wider position with Garry Birtles operating as the striker. IIRC Francis also played in a wide role for Man City before going to Italy.
 

Bear all

Well-Known Member
Forest never dominated Liverpool. They were worthy champions in 1978, but never won it again. Liverpool dominated English football in the 1970's & 1980's.
Not how I remember it at the time Forest where continually Winning against Liverpool maybe my years statement is a bit much.
 
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