Celtic face threat of multimillion pound compensation claim(The Times)



What's going on here @BN94?

This must be sickening and frustrating for the survivors.

Is his lawyers player tricks to continually delay the trial?

Or is there another influence at play here

Or are there genuine legal matters that need resolving before the trial can proceed?
 
What's going on here @BN94?

This must be sickening and frustrating for the survivors.

Is his lawyers player tricks to continually delay the trial?

Or is there another influence at play here

Or are there genuine legal matters that need resolving before the trial can proceed?
Probably your last sentence mate. If there’s anything else going on then Spotlight will find it. I guarantee that.
 
The failings of past administrations and sympathetic parties, apologists and charlatans is intolerable.
The inaction at Celtic and there stance of denial and deception is quite unbelievable
However the priority will always be the victims, it's about them and the mistreatment at the hands of this institution and it's associates.
Accountability and responsibility should be determined by an independent inquiry, a scandal of this magnitude must be heard.
Perfect. Hopefully one day justice will prevail and individuals involved with that club are properly investigated.
This is the main reason we must fight on.
There have been plenty of setbacks and no doubt there will be more to come. Giving up is not an option.
 
This sounds different to me, in spite of Gordon's tweet I see shared here today.

Yes, he still didn't bother to turn up. But its progressed from a pre trial to an actual trial date by the sounds of it?

Or am I misunderstanding?
He must have some legal team to get so many adjournments 5 in a year to me the judge is a disgrace or he's be bought , shameful the Scottish legal system.
 
He must have some legal team to get so many adjournments 5 in a year to me the judge is a disgrace or he's be bought , shameful the Scottish legal system.
I appreciate that people cannot post certain things or publish certain things in papers as it may prejudice a court case.

Could, for example, Marc Horne, write s story in the time highlighting that a certain defendant* has had his CSA court case postponed 5 times in a year.

That might put some pressure on the courts / government to do something?

* I don't know if he could name him, or if not just state "a defendant" or some other title that does not specifically identify the accused.
 
I have no idea about this specific case but it is not remotely unusual for an indictment to call numerous times as a first diet ("pre-trial hearing") before actually calling as a trial. Personal attendance of the accused at court is being discouraged, even at High Court level, due to the Coronavirus.

These prosecutions are complex and the accused is entitled to a fair trial. It is only correct that the defence are allowed to build their case, not being allowed to would be an instantly successful appeal point, which I am sure does not seem like an optimum outcome for any of the complainers.
 
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I have no idea about this specific case but it is not remotely unusual for an indictment to call numerous times as a first diet ("pre-trial hearing") before actually calling as a trial. Personal attendance of the accused at court is being discouraged, even at High Court level, due to the Coronavirus.

These prosecutions are complex and the accused is entitled to a fair trial. It is only correct that the defense are allowed to build their case, not being allowed to would be an instantly successful appeal point, which I am sure does not seem like an optimum outcome for any of the complainers.
As someone who doesn't really understand the courts then, why are cases (generally, not specific to this one necessarily) repeatedly called for pre-trial until an actual trial is held? Sounds awfully inefficient. I could see there might be reason for one or at a push 2 postponements. But 5 in a year seems far from reasonable.

Not saying its wrong. Want to learn and understand.
 
I appreciate that people cannot post certain things or publish certain things in papers as it may prejudice a court case.

Could, for example, Marc Horne, write s story in the time highlighting that a certain defendant* has had his CSA court case postponed 5 times in a year.

That might put some pressure on the courts / government to do something?

* I don't know if he could name him, or if not just state "a defendant" or some other title that does not specifically identify the accused.
They are called the accused in Scotland.

The government can't intervene as the courts are independent, newspaper articles have zero weight on judicial decision making, and this isn't a wholly unusual situation. The Crown can appeal this decision, and any subsequent orders to adjourn, to the High Court if they feel it unlawful or incompetent.
 
They are called the accused in Scotland.

The government can't intervene as the courts are independent, newspaper articles have zero weight on judicial decision making, and this isn't a wholly unusual situation. The Crown can appeal this decision, and any subsequent orders to adjourn, to the High Court if they feel it unlawful or incompetent.
Yeh, I wasn't thinking the judges will behave differently because of a paper article.

But political pressure surely does occur from time to time to speed things along or slow them down. It would be naive to think this does not happen at all, even if legally it is not allowed.

I would think, if there is dodgy things going on with all these postponements - and I can see from your other replies that there might well not be, although its above my head - that having such a thing publicly highlighted might lead the courts to find that suddenly they can be a bit more efficient.
 
I have no idea about this specific case but it is not remotely unusual for an indictment to call numerous times as a first diet ("pre-trial hearing") before actually calling as a trial. Personal attendance of the accused at court is being discouraged, even at High Court level, due to the Coronavirus.

These prosecutions are complex and the accused is entitled to a fair trial. It is only correct that the defense are allowed to build their case, not being allowed to would be an instantly successful appeal point, which I am sure does not seem like an optimum outcome for any of the complainers.
Very good post. We’d like to comment on this, but at the moment we can’t.
 
As someone who doesn't really understand the courts then, why are cases (generally, not specific to this one necessarily) repeatedly called for pre-trial until an actual trial is held? Sounds awfully inefficient. I could see there might be reason for one or at a push 2 postponements. But 5 in a year seems far from reasonable.

Not saying its wrong. Won't to learn and understand.
Prosecution on indictment in Scotland runs via this process (time limits are pre Covid and have changed since) :

1. The accused is charged and appears on petition before the Sheriff. They are then committed for further examination (the Crown and police continue investigating) and either bailed or remanded in custody;

2. If bailed, the Crown has 11 months to serve the accused with an indictment and bring them before either the High Court or the Sheriff for a first diet. The trial diet must call within 12 months of the first appearance on petition, but these dates can be extended by the Court, on cause shown (for a good reason) **we are here**

3. If remanded, the accused appears again before the Sheriff on or before the eighth day following their first appearance. The accused can then move again for bail, if granted the timescales in 2 above apply. If bail is refused the The accused is fully committed for trial and remanded in custody until liberated in due course of law. In practice this means that the Crown have 110 days to start a first diet and 140 days to start a trial. The court can again extend both dates.
 
But political pressure surely does occur from time to time to speed things along or slow them down. It would be naive to think this does not happen at all, even if legally it is not allowed
I promise you that there is not. Judicial office holders and court staff answer to the Lord President of the Court of Session (and he to the Queen) rather than any Minister. No minister can sack them.
 
What's going on here @BN94?

This must be sickening and frustrating for the survivors.

Is his lawyers player tricks to continually delay the trial?

Or is there another influence at play here

Or are there genuine legal matters that need resolving before the trial can proceed?

Looking after their own. They always have and always will, corrupting any system that gets in their way.
 
Prosecution on indictment in Scotland runs via this process (time limits are pre Covid and have changed since) :

1. The accused is charged and appears on petition before the Sheriff. They are then committed for further examination (the Crown and police continue investigating) and either bailed or remanded in custody;

2. If bailed, the Crown has 11 months to serve the accused with an indictment and bring them before either the High Court or the Sheriff for a first diet. The trial diet must call within 12 months of the first appearance on petition, but these dates can be extended by the Court, on cause shown (for a good reason) **we are here**

3. If remanded, the accused appears again before the Sheriff on or before the eighth day following their first appearance. The accused can then move again for bail, if granted the timescales in 2 above apply. If bail is refused the The accused is fully committed for trial and remanded in custody until liberated in due course of law. In practice this means that the Crown have 110 days to start a first diet and 140 days to start a trial. The court can again extend both dates.
Appreciate the explanation.

Thanks for taking the time.
 
I promise you that there is not. Judicial office holders and court staff answer to the Lord President of the Court of Session (and he to the Queen) rather than any Minister. No minister can sack them.
Never had any dealings with the court. So just a case of me being very ignorant of how this all works.

Will remember this in future when we get to the next intended court date and not spam up the thread with any more irrelevant nonsense. :eek:
 
Never had any dealings with the court. So just a case of me being very ignorant of how this all works.

Will remember this in future when we get to the next intended court date and not spam up the thread with any more irrelevant nonsense. :eek:
Not irrelevant at all bud, there's nothing wrong with asking questions as to why courts have done what they have, it's part of living in a democracy.
 
I have no idea about this specific case but it is not remotely unusual for an indictment to call numerous times as a first diet ("pre-trial hearing") before actually calling as a trial. Personal attendance of the accused at court is being discouraged, even at High Court level, due to the Coronavirus.

These prosecutions are complex and the accused is entitled to a fair trial. It is only correct that the defence are allowed to build their case, not being allowed to would be an instantly successful appeal point, which I am sure does not seem like an optimum outcome for any of the complainers.
Good explanation of the procedural intricacies of the court system. One further thing worth noting is that the process differs now from what was formerly the norm.

Very often in the past cases were called too court for trial, witnesses and jurors were cited only for the case to be adjourned to a later date for various reasons too numerous to list.

The new procedure is much improved and avoids inconvenience to both witnesses and jurors as more often than not when the case eventually does call for trial all preparation is complete and confirmed to be so before either a sheriff or a High Court judge.

BTW cases are not always adjourned due to defence difficulties, very often the Crown find that they are unable to proceed for various reasons, including witnesses unavailability. The more witnesses a case has then the more difficult time tabling becomes.
 
I have no idea about this specific case but it is not remotely unusual for an indictment to call numerous times as a first diet ("pre-trial hearing") before actually calling as a trial. Personal attendance of the accused at court is being discouraged, even at High Court level, due to the Coronavirus.

These prosecutions are complex and the accused is entitled to a fair trial. It is only correct that the defence are allowed to build their case, not being allowed to would be an instantly successful appeal point, which I am sure does not seem like an optimum outcome for any of the complainers.

Thanks for explaining.

I suspect most who take an interest in this case, for whatever reason, know nothing about how the whole trial process works. I very much include myself in that bracket.
 
Thanks.

Can see the issue is mine, and perhaps others, lack of understanding with due process in the courts rather than anything else.
No just yours, only joking mate. We all want a fair trial to negate any room for manoeuvre on appeal but I agree 5 delays in a year seems excessive and a blatant defence delay tactic, hopefully it will make it all the sweeter when the bastard is finally nailed again. We now wait till spring next year for a trial, does anyone know when one of their other paedos is up in court?
 
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Prosecution on indictment in Scotland runs via this process (time limits are pre Covid and have changed since) :

1. The accused is charged and appears on petition before the Sheriff. They are then committed for further examination (the Crown and police continue investigating) and either bailed or remanded in custody;

2. If bailed, the Crown has 11 months to serve the accused with an indictment and bring them before either the High Court or the Sheriff for a first diet. The trial diet must call within 12 months of the first appearance on petition, but these dates can be extended by the Court, on cause shown (for a good reason) **we are here**

3. If remanded, the accused appears again before the Sheriff on or before the eighth day following their first appearance. The accused can then move again for bail, if granted the timescales in 2 above apply. If bail is refused the The accused is fully committed for trial and remanded in custody until liberated in due course of law. In practice this means that the Crown have 110 days to start a first diet and 140 days to start a trial. The court can again extend both dates.
On point 3 ,has this previously convicted criminal actually appeared in court in front of anyone on these latest charges?...i may have missed it but anytime i've read anything on it,he hasn't.
 
Guys can I throw something out here? I know that many of us, myself included, refer to our SNP administration in Scotland as a cult. But I have friends who were actually abused as children by what can only be described as “as cults.” Because of what went on and from what I know I can only agree with that description. I can’t elaborate on that at this time but I hope to be able to help those concerned to try and move forward. Remember, as individuals we can be easily put down but united we can bring the abusers down.
 
Cairney’s bail was continued so he remains at his house in Uddingston.

A house bought by Neil Watt back in 2011 and when Cairney was given a lifetime rent-free tenancy by Watt.

Not sure what to make of this as Watt claims he will be looking to help the victims presumably when Cairney dies and the house can be sold. Was he duped by Cairney or is he genuinely wanting to help?

 
Cairney’s bail was continued so he remains at his house in Uddingston.

A house bought by Neil Watt back in 2011 and when Cairney was given a lifetime rent-free tenancy by Watt.

Not sure what to make of this as Watt claims he will be looking to help the victims presumably when Cairney dies and the house can be sold. Was he duped by Cairney or is he genuinely wanting to help?

That all seems very strange to me, what kind of person would do that for anyone far less someone facing the kind of charges he was?
 
Cairney’s bail was continued so he remains at his house in Uddingston.

A house bought by Neil Watt back in 2011 and when Cairney was given a lifetime rent-free tenancy by Watt.

Not sure what to make of this as Watt claims he will be looking to help the victims presumably when Cairney dies and the house can be sold. Was he duped by Cairney or is he genuinely wanting to help?

This is where The Sun got it from below. The Sun always run a story on this subject after Marc Horne.



Neil Watt (56) bought Frank Cairney’s home eight years before his conviction and granted him rent-free tenancy for life, property records confirm.

Cairney (83), the former chief coach of Celtic Boys Club, was jailed for four years in February after being convicted of nine charges of sexually abusing boys. Watt, who managed Ayr United, Clyde and Stranraer, is now the managing director of property firm, Hacking and Paterson.

He gave evidence for Cairney, his former coach at Celtic Boys Club, during his trial. He also spoke up publicly for Cairney when allegations first emerged in the 1990s, stating: “I can’t speak highly enough about the guy.”

Watt, managing director of property firm Hacking and Paterson, and former president and director of the Property Managers Association Scotland, says he now accepts his former friend and mentor is a paedophile and has pledged to compensate his victims.

He claimed that his legal agreement with Cairney means he is powerless to prevent him from returning to the house in Uddingston, South Lanarkshire, on his release.

Records confirm that he bought the property from Cairney for £85k in 2011 but allowed him to live there for the rest of his life without payment.

“Unfortunately, I am now the owner of this house. I cannot do anything about that. However, I can do something when the inevitable happens, given Cairney’s age.

Now the court has proven he is a convicted paedophile it is on my conscience to try to put things right. It is my intention to ensure, when that time comes, that victims of Mr Cairney’s crimes can be assisted in some way.”

Watt, who played for Celtic Boys Club in the late 1970s and 80s, claimed that he had responded to a plea for help from his former manager. “This was a man who I trusted, had faith in and was involved with for a short period of time in my life.

He was a person who needed some assistance and I gave him that assistance. I had no gain, whatsoever, from this and was just trying to be compassionate.”

He strongly denied that the agreement was intended to protect Cairney from being sued by his victims, saying: “The suggestion I colluded with Mr Cairney because he knew he was going to be convicted and I agreed to help him hide his assets is ludicrous.”
 
He strongly denied that the agreement was intended to protect Cairney from being sued by his victims, saying: “The suggestion I colluded with Mr Cairney because he knew he was going to be convicted and I agreed to help him hide his assets is ludicrous.”


Like Haughey bought Celtic park but still some even on here say there is no conspiracy or awareness by Celtic and those associated with them the only awareness they lack is self awareness
 
This is where The Sun got it from below. The Sun always run a story on this subject after Marc Horne.



Neil Watt (56) bought Frank Cairney’s home eight years before his conviction and granted him rent-free tenancy for life, property records confirm.

Cairney (83), the former chief coach of Celtic Boys Club, was jailed for four years in February after being convicted of nine charges of sexually abusing boys. Watt, who managed Ayr United, Clyde and Stranraer, is now the managing director of property firm, Hacking and Paterson.

He gave evidence for Cairney, his former coach at Celtic Boys Club, during his trial. He also spoke up publicly for Cairney when allegations first emerged in the 1990s, stating: “I can’t speak highly enough about the guy.”

Watt, managing director of property firm Hacking and Paterson, and former president and director of the Property Managers Association Scotland, says he now accepts his former friend and mentor is a paedophile and has pledged to compensate his victims.

He claimed that his legal agreement with Cairney means he is powerless to prevent him from returning to the house in Uddingston, South Lanarkshire, on his release.

Records confirm that he bought the property from Cairney for £85k in 2011 but allowed him to live there for the rest of his life without payment.

“Unfortunately, I am now the owner of this house. I cannot do anything about that. However, I can do something when the inevitable happens, given Cairney’s age.

Now the court has proven he is a convicted paedophile it is on my conscience to try to put things right. It is my intention to ensure, when that time comes, that victims of Mr Cairney’s crimes can be assisted in some way.”

Watt, who played for Celtic Boys Club in the late 1970s and 80s, claimed that he had responded to a plea for help from his former manager. “This was a man who I trusted, had faith in and was involved with for a short period of time in my life.

He was a person who needed some assistance and I gave him that assistance. I had no gain, whatsoever, from this and was just trying to be compassionate.”

He strongly denied that the agreement was intended to protect Cairney from being sued by his victims, saying: “The suggestion I colluded with Mr Cairney because he knew he was going to be convicted and I agreed to help him hide his assets is ludicrous.”

So, if it wasn't to help Cairney hide his assets what did he think ot was all about?
It just shows the length that others are prepared to go for these people & when you read things like this you do wonder how far this whole scandal actually goes.
 
This is where The Sun got it from below. The Sun always run a story on this subject after Marc Horne.



Neil Watt (56) bought Frank Cairney’s home eight years before his conviction and granted him rent-free tenancy for life, property records confirm.

Cairney (83), the former chief coach of Celtic Boys Club, was jailed for four years in February after being convicted of nine charges of sexually abusing boys. Watt, who managed Ayr United, Clyde and Stranraer, is now the managing director of property firm, Hacking and Paterson.

He gave evidence for Cairney, his former coach at Celtic Boys Club, during his trial. He also spoke up publicly for Cairney when allegations first emerged in the 1990s, stating: “I can’t speak highly enough about the guy.”

Watt, managing director of property firm Hacking and Paterson, and former president and director of the Property Managers Association Scotland, says he now accepts his former friend and mentor is a paedophile and has pledged to compensate his victims.

He claimed that his legal agreement with Cairney means he is powerless to prevent him from returning to the house in Uddingston, South Lanarkshire, on his release.

Records confirm that he bought the property from Cairney for £85k in 2011 but allowed him to live there for the rest of his life without payment.

“Unfortunately, I am now the owner of this house. I cannot do anything about that. However, I can do something when the inevitable happens, given Cairney’s age.

Now the court has proven he is a convicted paedophile it is on my conscience to try to put things right. It is my intention to ensure, when that time comes, that victims of Mr Cairney’s crimes can be assisted in some way.”

Watt, who played for Celtic Boys Club in the late 1970s and 80s, claimed that he had responded to a plea for help from his former manager. “This was a man who I trusted, had faith in and was involved with for a short period of time in my life.

He was a person who needed some assistance and I gave him that assistance. I had no gain, whatsoever, from this and was just trying to be compassionate.”

He strongly denied that the agreement was intended to protect Cairney from being sued by his victims, saying: “The suggestion I colluded with Mr Cairney because he knew he was going to be convicted and I agreed to help him hide his assets is ludicrous.”

Another who couldnt spot a paedophile in a room full of savilles
 
Cairney’s bail was continued so he remains at his house in Uddingston.

A house bought by Neil Watt back in 2011 and when Cairney was given a lifetime rent-free tenancy by Watt.

Not sure what to make of this as Watt claims he will be looking to help the victims presumably when Cairney dies and the house can be sold. Was he duped by Cairney or is he genuinely wanting to help?

I see from this article that Cairney is at least 85 years old. This makes all the trial date postponements much clearer now. Can't have much longer to keep breathing ........
 
Cairney’s bail was continued so he remains at his house in Uddingston.

A house bought by Neil Watt back in 2011 and when Cairney was given a lifetime rent-free tenancy by Watt.

Not sure what to make of this as Watt claims he will be looking to help the victims presumably when Cairney dies and the house can be sold. Was he duped by Cairney or is he genuinely wanting to help?

Cairney maybe offloaded assets to Watt who’s trying to avoid criticism by pretending he’s a good guy?
 
He strongly denied that the agreement was intended to protect Cairney from being sued by his victims, saying: “The suggestion I colluded with Mr Cairney because he knew he was going to be convicted and I agreed to help him hide his assets is ludicrous.”


Like Haughey bought Celtic park but still some even on here say there is no conspiracy or awareness by Celtic and those associated with them the only awareness they lack is self awareness
Absolutely correct & just to add does another company attached to the filth owns the players & another company holds their finances or something along those lines , 3 separate companies within celtic own the business.
 
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