Celtic face threat of multimillion pound compensation claim(The Times)

gordon_blue said:
If any of you are watching the repeat of Little Boy Blue on ITV, part 4 is on tonight. It's the story of the shooting of Rhys Jones in Liverpool in 2007. Tonight, we'll see the gang members in court. They turned the proceedings into a joke. Laughing and smirking at everything, throwing paper aeroplanes, making a big joke.

That is what that mhob are like. Treating the law and decent society as a joke. They just don't care. "We are untouchable!".

Well the Liverpool court wiped the smiles off their faces. Big time.

Can't wait for the exact same thing to happen to the East-end bheasts.
Click to expand...
In a Scottish court? Not a chance, what was once a justice system that was the envy of the world, is now in tatters, rapists, sexual predators and child abusers are treated leniently
 
Paulski54 said:
Large John knew alright. Don’t worry about that. He was as wide as they came. a big cheeky bugger, Liked his drink and loved his gambling, or scamming anyone he could. He’d spend a fair old chunk of dough at his old pals bookies and boozers. Up to no good a lot of the time.
that’s all gravy in comparison to knowing what he knew.
He should never have been allowed near a football team with his knowledge, but he allowed it to happen. This will be his true legacy, surpassing any trophy win he achieved.
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And he had a long standing affair with the wife of a prominent sportswriter, that was pretty much common knowledge
 
By their own words "big Jock knew" they stated that Stein Kicked Torbetts arse out of the club when he found out about abuse, two years later the same jock Stein was pictured shaking hands with Torbett at a celtic boys club prize giving thing, Big Jock knew and he condoned it by his actions.
 
HCMC_Loyal said:
How the decent Celtic fans (no laughing at the back) aren't up in arms about this is beyond me. If this was a club or organisation I had a vested interest in, I would be furious/disgusted if information of such a cover up was coming out.

I know all rivals think they're better than the other side but, the deafening silence from the other side of the city truly shows them up for being the contemptible scum we've always believed them to be.
Click to expand...

I fell out with cousin one them 6 months ago about this said to him youse All knew and done %^*& all about it he spat the dummy right out

which is true every single Celtic fan is complicit in this
 
johnkp said:
'Jerry Sandusky - Assistant Coach of the Penn State Nittany Lions football team - sexually abused ten young boys over a period of at least 15 years, from 1994 to 2009. Officials at Penn State purportedly failed to notify law enforcement after learning about some of these incidents. An internal investigation into Penn State's actions - led by Former FBI Director Louis Freeh - was launched.

Freeh announced that the team assisting him in his investigation would include former FBI agents and federal prosecutors. As the Sandusky trial proceeded toward conviction in June 2012, it was announced that Freeh's report would be released to the trustees and the public simultaneously, without being reviewed by the school's general counsel's office.

Three Penn State school officials - School President Graham Spanier, Vice-President Gary Schultz and Athletic Director Tim Curley were charged with perjury, obstruction of justice, failure to report suspected child abuse, and related charges. Shortly after the scandal broke, Spanier resigned. The Penn State Board of Trustees terminated the contracts of Curley and of the longtime head football coach, Joe Paterno.

Shortly after the release of the Freeh Report, the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Board gave its' President - Mark Emmert - the power to take corrective and punitive action relative to Penn State, forgoing the NCAA's normal investigative protocol. On July 22, 2012, the NCAA announced that it would impose "corrective and punitive" sanctions against both the Penn State football program and the institution as a whole the next morning.

On July 23, 2012, Emmert announced the following sanctions against Penn State:

- five years probation.

- A four-year post-season ban.

- Vacating of all wins from 1998 to 2011. A total of 112 wins. This had the effect of stripping the Nittany Lions of their shared Big Ten titles in 2005 and 2008. It also removed 111 wins from Paterno's record, dropping him from first to 12th on the NCAA's all-time wins list.

- A $60m fine, the proceeds of which were to go toward an endowment for preventing child abuse. According to the NCAA, this was the equivalent of a typical year's gross revenue from the football program.

- Loss of a total of 40 initial scholarships from 2013 to 2017. During the same period, Penn State is limited to 65 total scholarships - only two more than a Division I FCS (formerly I-AA) school is allowed.

- Penn State was required to adopt all recommendations for reform delineated in the Freeh report.

- Penn State must enter into an "athletics integrity agreement" with the NCAA and Big Ten, appoint a university-wide athletic compliance officer and compliance council, and accept an NCAA-appointed athletic integrity monitor for the duration of its probation.

Sanctions rescinded
The NCAA later rescinded many of the sanctions against Penn State. On September 24, 2013, the NCAA announced that Penn State's scholarships would be gradually restored until the number of scholarships reached the normal 85 for the 2016–17 year, the first year after Penn State's postseason ban.

A year later, on September 8, 2014, the NCAA announced that Penn State would be eligible for the 2014 postseason and all scholarships would be restored in 2015. Several months later, on January 16, 2015, the NCAA reinstated Paterno and Bradley's wins.'

Penn State child sex abuse scandal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

There must have been a lot of horse trading going on behind the scenes to have so many of these sanctions rescinded so quickly.
Click to expand...
That is an unbelievable list of abuse at Penn state. 15 years of it! Just think of the 50 years going on at the chamber of secrets. Good grief it pains me to think of whats been going on and even covered up by those bastards. :mad::mad:
 
watty200 said:
Did McNeill not claim it was an 'open secret' at the club?
Click to expand...
I believe he did and I believe that Lou Macari mentioned it in his book allegedly although I have never read his book.

Found this on the Internet on Rangers Media site by googling Lou Macari Celtic Boys Club

Away from first-team and club matters, which were bad enough, another issue was beginning to raise its ugly head at the club. Within a month of my arrival one of the young players asked to see me in my office. 'Here we go,' I thought. 'That didn't take long. Here's a youngster in to complain about not being in the team. Straight away he's going to be into me to give him his chance.' He sat down and told me that he had had problems on a trip to North America with the youth team. One of the fellas in charge had made advances towards him.
As a manager you expect to have to sort out all sorts of problems. But this wasn't one I ever saw coming. I was staggered. To be frank, I didn't know how to respond for the best. Clearly the kid was distressed about what had happened, but I felt I couldn't just approach the accused and ask him to explain himself without proof. My hands were tied, in a way. I felt completely stuck and out of my depth. I spoke to my staff. They were shocked. My gut feeling was that the kid was speaking the truth, but there was no mechanism within the club or within my experience to deal with it. It was a police matter if anything. Any investigation had to start with them.

And that's exactly what happened.

A couple of years later it all came out. Celtic Boys' Club founder Jim Torbett was convicted of sexual abuse of three players, including Alan Brazil.

Frank Cairney, the manager of the Boys' Club, was charged but not convicted. It emerged that years earlier Jock Stein knew all about Torbett and kicked him out of the club. The wish to maintain the good name of Celtic, if that were ever a good enough reason, was the only thing that kept the issue from coming to light at that point. There was a string of allegations by young lads whose dreams of playing for Celtic were exploited, but it was the testimony of Alan Brazil, David Gordon and James McGrory that brought the matter to court, and Torbett to justice.
 
Grigo Yossarian said:
100% RIGHT JWEE.

From memory, wasn't he there 20+ years, and yet this was only a
batch of pictures taken over a few weeks ?

Torbett's attic must've been full :cool:
Click to expand...
Is it the case that these pictures were taken over a few weeks Grigo, I can't recall seeing that before? I assumed it was a collection amassed over 20 years. If it's the case that 2 hundred odd were amassed over a short period and he was there 20 years then he should be getting revisited by the police to answer a couple of further questions.
 
alba73 said:
Alan Brazil laughingly told a story that he had good odds on a horse months before a big race. The day of the race Scotland were playing. Brazil had scored a few goals in previous game ( not sure if it was club or country) and was expected to start. anyway stein asked Brazil a few times for a cut off the action. Brazil refused, each offer was reduced in Brazil’s favour. Brazil again refused and coincidentally didn’t play in the game. Brazil thought it was funny I thought it was bullying.


just googled this
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It was all done through his old pal Tony Queen, the bookie. Used to own god knows how many hundreds of shops before he sold it all to Reo Stakis. A few boozers too that they were all into, think his biggest one was the old New Orleans pub in Rutherglen. Large John would get only the best odds from his wee mucker, and they would earn a nice wee skin off any takings, as well as bets taken from players too. The big yin was definitely as wide as they came.
 
johnkp said:
'Jerry Sandusky - Assistant Coach of the Penn State Nittany Lions football team - sexually abused ten young boys over a period of at least 15 years, from 1994 to 2009. Officials at Penn State purportedly failed to notify law enforcement after learning about some of these incidents. An internal investigation into Penn State's actions - led by Former FBI Director Louis Freeh - was launched.

Freeh announced that the team assisting him in his investigation would include former FBI agents and federal prosecutors. As the Sandusky trial proceeded toward conviction in June 2012, it was announced that Freeh's report would be released to the trustees and the public simultaneously, without being reviewed by the school's general counsel's office.

Three Penn State school officials - School President Graham Spanier, Vice-President Gary Schultz and Athletic Director Tim Curley were charged with perjury, obstruction of justice, failure to report suspected child abuse, and related charges. Shortly after the scandal broke, Spanier resigned. The Penn State Board of Trustees terminated the contracts of Curley and of the longtime head football coach, Joe Paterno.

Shortly after the release of the Freeh Report, the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Board gave its' President - Mark Emmert - the power to take corrective and punitive action relative to Penn State, forgoing the NCAA's normal investigative protocol. On July 22, 2012, the NCAA announced that it would impose "corrective and punitive" sanctions against both the Penn State football program and the institution as a whole the next morning.

On July 23, 2012, Emmert announced the following sanctions against Penn State:

- five years probation.

- A four-year post-season ban.

- Vacating of all wins from 1998 to 2011. A total of 112 wins. This had the effect of stripping the Nittany Lions of their shared Big Ten titles in 2005 and 2008. It also removed 111 wins from Paterno's record, dropping him from first to 12th on the NCAA's all-time wins list.

- A $60m fine, the proceeds of which were to go toward an endowment for preventing child abuse. According to the NCAA, this was the equivalent of a typical year's gross revenue from the football program.

- Loss of a total of 40 initial scholarships from 2013 to 2017. During the same period, Penn State is limited to 65 total scholarships - only two more than a Division I FCS (formerly I-AA) school is allowed.

- Penn State was required to adopt all recommendations for reform delineated in the Freeh report.

- Penn State must enter into an "athletics integrity agreement" with the NCAA and Big Ten, appoint a university-wide athletic compliance officer and compliance council, and accept an NCAA-appointed athletic integrity monitor for the duration of its probation.

Sanctions rescinded
The NCAA later rescinded many of the sanctions against Penn State. On September 24, 2013, the NCAA announced that Penn State's scholarships would be gradually restored until the number of scholarships reached the normal 85 for the 2016–17 year, the first year after Penn State's postseason ban.

A year later, on September 8, 2014, the NCAA announced that Penn State would be eligible for the 2014 postseason and all scholarships would be restored in 2015. Several months later, on January 16, 2015, the NCAA reinstated Paterno and Bradley's wins.'

Penn State child sex abuse scandal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

There must have been a lot of horse trading going on behind the scenes to have so many of these sanctions rescinded so quickly.
Click to expand...
The Irish Catholic Mafia in US politics, particularly within the Democrat liberal elite of the north east will take no prisoners. Joe Kennedy, another criminal, made it his life's work to promote their creed to the highest levels in public life there. That is the role model they all aspire to. Just think what the Kennedy's were involved in and they have sellick supporters' clubs here named after them.
 
looway said:
Is it the case that these pictures were taken over a few weeks Grigo, I can't recall seeing that before? I assumed it was a collection amassed over 20 years. If it's the case that 2 hundred odd were amassed over a short period and he was there 20 years then he should be getting revisited by the police to answer a couple of further questions.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure I read that these were not much more than a month's worth Looway.

I'll see if I can get it validated for you in the next day or so mate.
 
johnkp said:
'Jerry Sandusky - Assistant Coach of the Penn State Nittany Lions football team - sexually abused ten young boys over a period of at least 15 years, from 1994 to 2009. Officials at Penn State purportedly failed to notify law enforcement after learning about some of these incidents. An internal investigation into Penn State's actions - led by Former FBI Director Louis Freeh - was launched.

Freeh announced that the team assisting him in his investigation would include former FBI agents and federal prosecutors. As the Sandusky trial proceeded toward conviction in June 2012, it was announced that Freeh's report would be released to the trustees and the public simultaneously, without being reviewed by the school's general counsel's office.

Three Penn State school officials - School President Graham Spanier, Vice-President Gary Schultz and Athletic Director Tim Curley were charged with perjury, obstruction of justice, failure to report suspected child abuse, and related charges. Shortly after the scandal broke, Spanier resigned. The Penn State Board of Trustees terminated the contracts of Curley and of the longtime head football coach, Joe Paterno.

Shortly after the release of the Freeh Report, the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Board gave its' President - Mark Emmert - the power to take corrective and punitive action relative to Penn State, forgoing the NCAA's normal investigative protocol. On July 22, 2012, the NCAA announced that it would impose "corrective and punitive" sanctions against both the Penn State football program and the institution as a whole the next morning.

On July 23, 2012, Emmert announced the following sanctions against Penn State:

- five years probation.

- A four-year post-season ban.

- Vacating of all wins from 1998 to 2011. A total of 112 wins. This had the effect of stripping the Nittany Lions of their shared Big Ten titles in 2005 and 2008. It also removed 111 wins from Paterno's record, dropping him from first to 12th on the NCAA's all-time wins list.

- A $60m fine, the proceeds of which were to go toward an endowment for preventing child abuse. According to the NCAA, this was the equivalent of a typical year's gross revenue from the football program.

- Loss of a total of 40 initial scholarships from 2013 to 2017. During the same period, Penn State is limited to 65 total scholarships - only two more than a Division I FCS (formerly I-AA) school is allowed.

- Penn State was required to adopt all recommendations for reform delineated in the Freeh report.

- Penn State must enter into an "athletics integrity agreement" with the NCAA and Big Ten, appoint a university-wide athletic compliance officer and compliance council, and accept an NCAA-appointed athletic integrity monitor for the duration of its probation.

Sanctions rescinded
The NCAA later rescinded many of the sanctions against Penn State. On September 24, 2013, the NCAA announced that Penn State's scholarships would be gradually restored until the number of scholarships reached the normal 85 for the 2016–17 year, the first year after Penn State's postseason ban.

A year later, on September 8, 2014, the NCAA announced that Penn State would be eligible for the 2014 postseason and all scholarships would be restored in 2015. Several months later, on January 16, 2015, the NCAA reinstated Paterno and Bradley's wins.'

Penn State child sex abuse scandal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

There must have been a lot of horse trading going on behind the scenes to have so many of these sanctions rescinded so quickly.
Click to expand...

There you go. That country, whose police force is still mudering minorities on the streets as it's filmed on camera, is a step up from Scotland when it comes to dealing with paedophiles...
 
Everything Rangers related good or bad will be subject to inquest on this forum. You will never see any discussion on any Celtic forum regarding the child abuse and subsequent cover up. I seen one thread on Kerrydale st a few years ago after one of them got done, but it was removed in minutes.
Also the reason Radio Clyde has had Cooney, Dellahunt, mcGuire, and McCulloch chairing the show, making sure it's never allowed to be mentioned.
 
looway said:
Is it the case that these pictures were taken over a few weeks Grigo, I can't recall seeing that before? I assumed it was a collection amassed over 20 years. If it's the case that 2 hundred odd were amassed over a short period and he was there 20 years then he should be getting revisited by the police to answer a couple of further questions.
Click to expand...

Sorry Looway - managed to google the article on BBC Website - he was at their club for
almost 30 years, and these pictures were all taken between January to December, 1982.

They were found in 2002, twenty year later.

Sorry for being a bit out in my statement.
 
david1982 said:
McNeil stated it under oath at the high court in the original Torbett trial in the late 90s.
Click to expand...

There's no record of McNeill being called as a witness, and no record of him in any newspaper stating that it was an open secret - before or after the trial.

Posters on here have mentioned various publications and dates, however, having trawled the Mitchell Library, I found nothing that confirms this. I believe it to be an urban myth.

For the avoidance of doubt, McNeill knew.

They all knew!
 
Arkanoid said:
Think his alleged quotes were a bit of an urban myth, they all knew though and the one for me is Burns who must have took many a secret to his grave. Nonce apologist is all he should ever be remembered for.
Click to expand...
He said it alright, and if he didn't do you really think him and Celtic would have allowed it to stay on record without disputing it? This is the club that would deny today is Wednesday if it kept their name clean.
 
Noddy said:
He said it alright, and if he didn't do you really think him and Celtic would have allowed it to stay on record without disputing it? This is the club that would deny today is Wednesday if it kept their name clean.
Click to expand...
See the post above yours mate
 
Noddy said:
www.google.com

THE CELTIC SEX abuse CASE COVER UP: FAIL CESAR. BILLY MCNEILL’S NOT ONCE, NOT TWICE BUT THRICE TIME FAILURE TO REPORT PAEDOPHILES AT THREE CLUBS WHERE HE MANAGED. Part 1

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.The evil that men do lives after them;The good is oft interred with their bones;So let it be with Caesar. (fr…
www.google.com www.google.com
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As a few have said mate seems to be an urban legend like everyone we all know they know, a blog isn't proof . I would love to see the full article, the context and the transcript of an admittance under oath...as I've said so would the victims and their lawyers
 
Arkanoid said:
As a few have said mate seems to be an urban legend like everyone we all know they know, a blog isn't proof . I would love to see the full article, the context and the transcript of an admittance under oath...as I've said so would the victims and their lawyers
Click to expand...
It's frustrating that I can't find a direct quote from a newspaper. I would've swore on my mum's grave that I remembered him being quoted in the papers at the time saying it was an open secret. Believe me, I'm not one for making stuff up just to have a go at Celtic.

Edit - that blog says the Evening Times quoted him saying it on the 13th of November 1998.
 
Russ H said:
Remember the old mentally challenged line - ‘Big Jock never knew ((Torbett) and when he did he kicked him straight out the boys club’

So Big Jock did know
If CBC was a separate entity how did kick him out
The whole statement does not make sense
They were all up to their foreheads in it

If they had only gone the police how many life’s would have been spared of their shame
Click to expand...
For the sake of clarification, the boys who were preyed on bear no shame, they were innocent victims. The shame is CELTICS' SHAME, and it seems to be growing .
 
Noddy said:
It's frustrating that I can't find a direct quote from a newspaper. I would've swore on my mum's grave that I remembered him being quoted in the papers at the time saying it was an open secret. Believe me, I'm not one for making stuff up just to have a go at Celtic.

Edit - that blog says the Evening Times quoted him saying it on the 13th of November 1998.
Click to expand...
I know mate, thing is it's been said that often on here because we know what they are all about but it's just taken as gospel yet posters have trawled Mitchell Library with no success. Their time will come
 
looway said:
Is it the case that these pictures were taken over a few weeks Grigo, I can't recall seeing that before? I assumed it was a collection amassed over 20 years. If it's the case that 2 hundred odd were amassed over a short period and he was there 20 years then he should be getting revisited by the police to answer a couple of further questions.
Click to expand...

Cullen worked there for 30 years, the 250 pictures were thought to have been taken the early part of 1982. My own thoughts on how they were found stashed all those years later is that they were put there for safekeeping at some point.
Two things I would suggest are either it was Cullen himself who forgot they were there due to the amount of images taken over his 30 year career. Or he had passed that 1982 group of images on to someone else who had access to the cupboard.
Either way there is no doubt in my mind that those 250 images were not the only ones taken.

ANGER AS CELTIC PERV SNAPPER WALKS FREE; Club official took photos of naked kids. - Free Online Library

Free Online Library: ANGER AS CELTIC PERV SNAPPER WALKS FREE; Club official took photos of naked kids.(News) by "The Mirror (London, England)"; General interest
www.thefreelibrary.com

CHILDREN'S campaigners hit out last night after a Celtic FC photographer who stashed pictures of naked boys at the club's stadium dodged jail.

John Cullen, who worked for official club magazine The Celtic View, took children aged 10-13 back to a house before making them pose for the camera.

The pervert was only caught 20 years later when Celtic Park cleaners found a bin bag stuffed with the photos in a room where he kept his equipment. They alerted club chiefs, who called in cops.

Married dad-of-two Cullen had snapped some of the club's greatest players and memorable moments in a 30-year career.

Yet no one knew of his sordid secret until the photos were found in May 2002.

Cullen, from Glasgow, was sacked and pleaded guilty to lewd and libidinous conduct in March this year. Despite a police search, his victims - who he photogra-phed in 1982 - have not been identified.

Celtic was rocked by a similar scandal in 1998 when former boys' club boss Jim Torbett was jailed for sexually abusing three young players in the 1960s and 70s.

Yesterday, at Glasgow Sheriff Court, Cullen, 49, walked free after being given three years' probation.

Children's groups immediately attacked the leniency of the sentence.

A spokeswoman for Children 1st said: "It is essential that offending behaviour is addressed and that offenders are not released back on to the streets to repeat such crimes against children.

"We must show children they can come forward to tell about their experiences."

CAPTION(S):

SORDID: Cullen hid pictures at stadium
 
LenzieLoyal said:
There's no record of McNeill being called as a witness, and no record of him in any newspaper stating that it was an open secret - before or after the trial.

Posters on here have mentioned various publications and dates, however, having trawled the Mitchell Library, I found nothing that confirms this. I believe it to be an urban myth.

For the avoidance of doubt, McNeill knew.

They all knew!
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Don't think it's anywhere that Mc Neil said this and believe me we've looked but there is no doubt he knew
 
Noddy said:
It's frustrating that I can't find a direct quote from a newspaper. I would've swore on my mum's grave that I remembered him being quoted in the papers at the time saying it was an open secret. Believe me, I'm not one for making stuff up just to have a go at Celtic.

Edit - that blog says the Evening Times quoted him saying it on the 13th of November 1998.
Click to expand...

I've checked that out at the Mitchell.

There is no mention of it in the Times on that date.
 
LenzieLoyal said:
There's no record of McNeill being called as a witness, and no record of him in any newspaper stating that it was an open secret - before or after the trial.

Posters on here have mentioned various publications and dates, however, having trawled the Mitchell Library, I found nothing that confirms this. I believe it to be an urban myth.

For the avoidance of doubt, McNeill knew.

They all knew!
Click to expand...
Noddy said:
It's frustrating that I can't find a direct quote from a newspaper. I would've swore on my mum's grave that I remembered him being quoted in the papers at the time saying it was an open secret. Believe me, I'm not one for making stuff up just to have a go at Celtic.

Edit - that blog says the Evening Times quoted him saying it on the 13th of November 1998.
Click to expand...

That particular quote has been ascribed in recent years to both McNeill and Macari - from memory I think it was actually Macari.
 
sg9375 said:
That is an unbelievable list of abuse at Penn state. 15 years of it! Just think of the 50 years going on at the chamber of secrets. Good grief it pains me to think of whats been going on and even covered up by those bastards. :mad::mad:
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50 years, even if it was a dozen or so boys a year that equates to hundreds, makes your stomach turn, and to think of who knew at the time and done nothing then currently still nothing from the authorities ffs it’s all wrong, they should close them down and raze that cesspit to the ground.
 
temperance said:
In a Scottish court? Not a chance, what was once a justice system that was the envy of the world, is now in tatters, rapists, sexual predators and child abusers are treated leniently
Click to expand...
the only country where saying words gets a longer sentence than abusing children, all hidden by a certain cult --maybe 2 cults now in Scotland if you look at it closely --southside under Natzi Nick and the Yousless bstd
 
LenzieLoyal said:
There's no record of McNeill being called as a witness, and no record of him in any newspaper stating that it was an open secret - before or after the trial.

Posters on here have mentioned various publications and dates, however, having trawled the Mitchell Library, I found nothing that confirms this. I believe it to be an urban myth.

For the avoidance of doubt, McNeill knew.

They all knew!
Click to expand...


I am pretty certain I seen Billy Mcneill say that quote on an STV interview at the time.
 
I'm unsure of whether I said this on this thread, but it's worth noting that Cullen almost certainly developed the images himself most likely he had a dark room at home. That they were then discovered in a cupboard at Parkhead suggests to me that they were getting shared around like minded individuals. Or am I just a sh#te amateur detective? It's incredible that police didn't follow anything up along these lines. For everyone of those photos there would be a negative, did he destroy every one? Oops there's that inquisitive mind again.
 
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