Central Defence a Major Issue

UnionBear said:
The other ridiculous thing we do is all the wee passes in our own box between McLaughlin, Goldson, Sands and Borna.

All it did tonight was makes sure we couldn't get out and/or lose possession. It was abysmal at times.

Over-passing so deep in our own half was absolutely mind-boggling and meant PSV just kept coming at us.

When our players have more touches of the ball in our own box than we do in the opposition box you know we have fundamental issues.
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Fundamentally every top ream does it but what do they know in comparison to FF expert.
 
blueismycolour said:
Sands and Goldson just doesn't work and in saying that, Sands has done nothong wong, but Goldson looks anervous wreck playing along side him.

Gio will need to sort it out quickly, as last night showed.
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yeah we should drop sands because goldson was shite.

another thing - barasic was guff in that second half. get kent off the park so that the boy can play his football gio!
 
derbybear said:
Fundamentally every top ream does it but what do they know in comparison to FF expert.
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They do, but did you see the mess we made of it time after time last night especially in the second half??

Or are you just deliberately ignoring that as a convenient way of trying to justify your point and have a go at me ??!

The amount of times we lost possession in that area which meant we couldn't get out properly was ridiculous. PSV were loving it.

If you couldn't see that then I can't help you.
 
gd93 said:
yeah we should drop sands because goldson was shite.

another thing - barasic was guff in that second half. get kent off the park so that the boy can play his football gio!
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No we should drop Goldson for the very fact of what you said, but we can't, because we have no one else with his so called experience that can come in at the moment.

Love it when people jump to their own conclusions.
 
UnionBear said:
They do, but did you see the mess we made of it time after time last night especially in the second half??

Or are you just deliberately ignoring that as a convenient way of trying to justify your point and have a go at me ??!

The amount of times we lost possession in that area which meant we couldn't get out properly was ridiculous. PSV were loving it.

If you couldn't see that then I can't help you.
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Was it the third fourth and fifth goal that PSV scored or just the sixth from that crazy passing the ball tactic?
 
Lets face it Goldson isnt great costs us a lot of goals,no one asked about him during season finish that tells you something.And why he resigned for us i dont think he had another option.
 
UnionBear said:
They do, but did you see the mess we made of it time after time last night especially in the second half??

Or are you just deliberately ignoring that as a convenient way of trying to justify your point and have a go at me ??!

The amount of times we lost possession in that area which meant we couldn't get out properly was ridiculous. PSV were loving it.

If you couldn't see that then I can't help you.
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There is a bigger issue that people ignore to continue having a pop at our defenders and keeper, there is a significant lack of movement off the ball for our back 4 to find out balls. Lundstram and Davis were the only 2 players who actively sought to get on the ball from the back. At times they look forward and then turn back as there is absolutely nothing on. It’s the team’s biggest weakness.

I like Colak and think he’s done well but he doesn’t offer anything like Buff in terms of linking the play and getting up the park, our wide players never seek to go long to come short and we don’t have enough players willing to break the lines and make runs in behind. The alternative to what happens is lumping it long for it to come straight back against quality teams. At times we should drop deeper as a team and then hit cornered to try and turn teams over. You can’t do that all the time though. In general play we limited them to very little on Tuesday, the issue was not defending set pieces well enough.
 
There were 2 main reasons we did not win the league last season. We did not put teams away after going ahead in games and we lost too many sloppy goals from set pieces and crosses into our box.

I’m confident we have addressed the first point with Colak, Tillman, Lawrence and Matondo all capable the of getting good figures. Still have a lot of concerns about point 2, we are basically now hoping Davies can form a good partnership will Goldson but Goldson himself has to address his own complete lack of form.

GVB and the coaching staff also need to look at themselves because they are not helping with the way they are setting us up for set pieces.

I would like to see us move Katic on and bring in someone that genuinely challenges Goldson for the right sided role, make it clear he is not untouchable
 
JD1872 said:
There were 2 main reasons we did not win the league last season. We did not put teams away after going ahead in games and we lost too many sloppy goals from set pieces and crosses into our box.

I’m confident we have addressed the first point with Colak, Tillman, Lawrence and Matondo all capable the of getting good figures. Still have a lot of concerns about point 2, we are basically now hoping Davies can form a good partnership will Goldson but Goldson himself has to address his own complete lack of form.

GVB and the coaching staff also need to look at themselves because they are not helping with the way they are setting us up for set pieces.

I would like to see us move Katic on and bring in someone that genuinely challenges Goldson for the right sided role, make it clear he is not untouchable
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I agree with paragraphs 1,2 and 4.

As for 3. Surely our coaching team know better? Always amazes me that fans think they know better than the people we have in charge but I dont come from a football playing background so that could be the reason. I dont play Football management games either.

Not trying to be a dick, so apologies if it comes across that way.
 
JD1872 said:
There were 2 main reasons we did not win the league last season. We did not put teams away after going ahead in games and we lost too many sloppy goals from set pieces and crosses into our box.

I’m confident we have addressed the first point with Colak, Tillman, Lawrence and Matondo all capable the of getting good figures. Still have a lot of concerns about point 2, we are basically now hoping Davies can form a good partnership will Goldson but Goldson himself has to address his own complete lack of form.

GVB and the coaching staff also need to look at themselves because they are not helping with the way they are setting us up for set pieces.

I would like to see us move Katic on and bring in someone that genuinely challenges Goldson for the right sided role, make it clear he is not untouchable
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I thought Souttar was brought in as back up right sided central defender?
 
Dado's Bandage said:
There is a bigger issue that people ignore to continue having a pop at our defenders and keeper, there is a significant lack of movement off the ball for our back 4 to find out balls. Lundstram and Davis were the only 2 players who actively sought to get on the ball from the back. At times they look forward and then turn back as there is absolutely nothing on. It’s the team’s biggest weakness.

I like Colak and think he’s done well but he doesn’t offer anything like Buff in terms of linking the play and getting up the park, our wide players never seek to go long to come short and we don’t have enough players willing to break the lines and make runs in behind. The alternative to what happens is lumping it long for it to come straight back against quality teams. At times we should drop deeper as a team and then hit cornered to try and turn teams over. You can’t do that all the time though. In general play we limited them to very little on Tuesday, the issue was not defending set pieces well enough.
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The whole team is not functioning as it should and hasn't been since our first game at Livingston.

Our passing is poor, there is very little cohesion and there is no fluency. Our passages of play are very 'bitty' and there is a lack of a dynamic structure which leads to a poor end product - and wasteful passing around at the back.

Ball retention is as poor as it has been in a few years.

Colak is a penalty box striker. He is not going to hold the ball up, he is not going to link. We need to adjust to this or it's not going to work. We are making hard work of it in the final third and our deliveries are not good enough.

Ironically our goal the other night came from a magnificent passage of play, but unfortunately it was a one off.
 
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UnionBear said:
The whole team is not functioning as it should and hasn't been since our first game at Livingston.

Our passing is poor, there is very little cohesion and there is no fluency. Our passages of play are very 'bitty' and there is a lack of a dynamic structure which leads to a poor end product - and wasteful passing around at the back.

Ball retention is as poor as it has been in a few years.

Colak is a penalty box striker. He is not going to hold the ball up, he is not going to link. We need to adjust to this or it's not going to work. We are making hard work of it in the final third and our deliveries are not good enough.

Ironically our goal the other night came from a magnificent passage of play, but unfortunately it was a one off.
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Our passing accuracy against PSV was 89% (to their 84%). We made 525 attempts at passes and completed 466 of them. For PSV they attempted 431 and completed 362. That's decent against a good quality side and will likely be much higher against most in the SPFL.

There is an argument to be had about where we make those passes and how 'dangerous' they are - I suspect that is what you really mean - but we are more than decent at ball retention and completing our passes. That said, we made more passes into the final third than PSV, more passes into the penalty area than PSV, more attempts at goal and more attempts on target - but given we had the bulk of possession/passes you'd maybe expect that.
 
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If we dont get this sorted it will be like last season when a corner kick comes over and it cost us dearly
 
Madjid Moments said:
I’ve said it all summer, but we are weak in central defence. With Helander unreliable and now Souttar and Davies carrying knocks we are weak in here.

Sands isn’t a natural centre back and is being asked to do a job but it’s going to cost us.

In my opinion we should bring Balogun back, he at least offers a physical presence and ability to attack balls in the air. Both goals were soft and all down to the fact we can’t defend properly and lack physicality.
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How fit is Balogun likely to be? Certainly not fit enough to go straight into a CL play off decider.
 
Athletico Parsnips said:
Guy that has played over 95% of games since he signed, and has won a league, Scottish Cup and got to EL final is shite apparently!
People need to get a grip.
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Goldson's not shite but the idea he's playing poorly(and he did on Tuesday) is because it's someone elses fault is nonsense.

Far too many times excuses are made for Goldson's poor games and mistakes. It was Worrall, it was Katic, it was Helander's lack of pace, it was Balogun, it was McGregor, it was Souttar and now it's Sands turn.

Players play bad. It happens. What we don't need is every excuse under the sun made for them.

Sands was excellent on Tuesday night. Goldson wasn't.
 
Madjid Moments said:
I’ve said it all summer, but we are weak in central defence. With Helander unreliable and now Souttar and Davies carrying knocks we are weak in here.

Sands isn’t a natural centre back and is being asked to do a job but it’s going to cost us.

In my opinion we should bring Balogun back, he at least offers a physical presence and ability to attack balls in the air. Both goals were soft and all down to the fact we can’t defend properly and lack physicality.
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Embarrassing tbh.

Why not scout centre backs who fit the budget, fit what the manager wants and then decide who might be the best fit?
 
Bassey, balogun leaving has left us weak on the left of defence, if we make cl group stages we will need to spend money on a euro level defender
 
Albertz Loyal said:
The first one is is unlucky.

The second is the price you pay for zonal defending. A guy with a run up is always going to out jump a guy static. Whoever decided this approach is too blame
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I'm sorry but heading a ball straight towards an attacker isn't unlucky in my book. You clear it, don't even care if it's into another corner.

And while I too am sick of this zonal marking, for the second one he actually ducks. He doesn't even challenge the attacker.
 
I don't think it is a major issue in all honesty

I do notice , when Goldson is playing with a partner he doesn't fully trust he tends to try and cover for them too much and leaves Tav wide open, it was an issue when Katic and Worral were his partners.

Gio clearly doesn't rate Katic, no issue with it I don't either.

Davies, needs time to settle, and fans need to be patient , we haven't spent £4m on a backup, he will be the long term partner, we are only less than a month into the season.

Soutter, never rated him, injury prone , low risk signing who is younger than Balogun, you can see the logic.
 
Dado's Bandage said:
There is a bigger issue that people ignore to continue having a pop at our defenders and keeper, there is a significant lack of movement off the ball for our back 4 to find out balls. Lundstram and Davis were the only 2 players who actively sought to get on the ball from the back. At times they look forward and then turn back as there is absolutely nothing on. It’s the team’s biggest weakness.

I like Colak and think he’s done well but he doesn’t offer anything like Buff in terms of linking the play and getting up the park, our wide players never seek to go long to come short and we don’t have enough players willing to break the lines and make runs in behind. The alternative to what happens is lumping it long for it to come straight back against quality teams. At times we should drop deeper as a team and then hit cornered to try and turn teams over. You can’t do that all the time though. In general play we limited them to very little on Tuesday, the issue was not defending set pieces well enough.
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A lot of truth in this, but the fundamental issue for me is that as a tactic/style of play - overall we're not good at it. That's why it's a problem. Between lack of off the ball movement and the slackness of the passing, it simply isn't the right fit for this team/these players.

At one point the other night, Borna had the ball at left-back and was about to send it down the line to Kent and I saw Gio run out and scream at him to pass it back to Sands, fifteen-twenty yards back the way. There was nothing wrong with the initial pass Borna was looking to make - Kent was open and it could've sent us away, but he was told to go back.

Referencing other teams doing it doesn't mean a thing. There's lots of ways to skin a cat in this game - but the key thing in my humble opinion is playing to your strengths and ideally your opponents weaknesses.

This pass about the back routine doesn't work well in game. 9/10 times, we do until we are in a panic, under pressure and end up lumping it long anyway.

Countless times every game now we see a slack pass/touch lead to losing it in a dangerous position or conceding a throw/free-kick/corner from a place of no risk.

If the manager is genuinely insistent on playing this slow, patient build-up style, the levels need to go up considerably because I fully expect it to cost us points and maybe even competitions this season the way we're playing it.

Our team never looks better than when we have our pacy players moving quickly, one-touch passing and moving the ball at high-tempo with aggression. That's what I want to see more of.
 
Valley Bluenose said:
Our passing accuracy against PSV was 89% (to their 84%). We made 525 attempts at passes and completed 466 of them. For PSV they attempted 431 and completed 362. That's decent against a good quality side and will likely be much higher against most in the SPFL.

There is an argument to be had about where we make those passes and how 'dangerous' they are - I suspect that is what you really mean - but we are more than decent at ball retention and completing our passes. That said, we made more passes into the final third than PSV, more passes into the penalty area than PSV, more attempts at goal and more attempts on target - but given we had the bulk of possession/passes you'd maybe expect that.
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Passing % is a very ropey and unreliable statistic to base performance on.

You can make 100 simple, easy passes and get them all right - it's the ones that make a difference to the result that actually matter.

Much like shot count, etc. We had more shots on target the other night, but I don;t remember their keeper making a really big or difficult save. Colak's tight angle in the second half the only moderately tough one he dealt with.

Tillman had a couple of tame efforts straight at him.

On the other hand, McLaughlin for me was the more tested (and positively impactful) keeper of the two and they missed a gilt edge chance early second half when the guy pulled it inches wide from the edge of the box.

There wasn't a great deal between the teams generally and we both had good strong spells of the game. I'd say we edged first-half, they edged the second.
 
BoyInRoyalBlue said:
I don't think it is a major issue in all honesty

I do notice , when Goldson is playing with a partner he doesn't fully trust he tends to try and cover for them too much and leaves Tav wide open, it was an issue when Katic and Worral were his partners.

Gio clearly doesn't rate Katic, no issue with it I don't either.

Davies, needs time to settle, and fans need to be patient , we haven't spent £4m on a backup, he will be the long term partner, we are only less than a month into the season.

Soutter, never rated him, injury prone , low risk signing who is younger than Balogun, you can see the logic.
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And don’t forget helander. Terrible bad luck
With injuries that we’ve had
 
Bluenose1979 said:
Passing % is a very ropey and unreliable statistic to base performance on.

You can make 100 simple, easy passes and get them all right - it's the ones that make a difference to the result that actually matter.

Much like shot count, etc. We had more shots on target the other night, but I don;t remember their keeper making a really big or difficult save. Colak's tight angle in the second half the only moderately tough one he dealt with.

Tillman had a couple of tame efforts straight at him.

On the other hand, McLaughlin for me was the more tested (and positively impactful) keeper of the two and they missed a gilt edge chance early second half when the guy pulled it inches wide from the edge of the box.

There wasn't a great deal between the teams generally and we both had good strong spells of the game. I'd say we edged first-half, they edged the second.
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McLaughlin made just two saves apparently - one of which was excellent. Their 'keeper made 5, none of which fell into the same category, though his stop from Colak second half was decent, if routine. Missed chances are missed chances. If not on target, you don't score - Lawrence's weak effort being a prime example of how a poor effort on target is better than a fantastic shot that goes past the post.

Your last para is correct, this tie isn't over yet.
 
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BoyInRoyalBlue said:
Goldson has been at the heart of our defence during our most sustained and some would say most succesfull european run over multiple seasons.
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Let's hope that continues. He was at fault the other night and in Seville. He has a huge game coming up and will need to keep his discipline against De Jong.
 
We also cannot play out from the back - we are not good enough - we put ourselves under pressure and end up giving away possession
 
Albertz Loyal said:
The first one is is unlucky.

The second is the price you pay for zonal defending. A guy with a run up is always going to out jump a guy static. Whoever decided this approach is too blame
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the problem is the zonal marking & that's it in a nutshell, give them all a man to mark & stick to them, match their run & get up to challenge (easier said than done i know)
 
148bear said:
Lets face it Goldson isnt great costs us a lot of goals,no one asked about him during season finish that tells you something.And why he resigned for us i dont think he had another option.
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You have guessed your way through that post
 
Valley Bluenose said:
McLaughlin made just two saves apparently - one of which was excellent. Their 'keeper made 5, none of which fell into the same category. Missed chances are missed chances. If not on target, you don't score - Lawrence's weak effort being a prime example of how a poor effort on target is better than a fantastic shot that goes past the post.

Your last para is correct, this tie isn't over yet.
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This is very much my point on some stats being a poor reflection of how a game is played.

A team can play utter shit and have one half-hit pish shot squirm through a keeper's legs and win, while the opponent hammers them all game but can't find the finish.

A team can have 20 tame, long shots at goal that get nothing while the opponent has one clinical one and score. Equally, using the shots stat to suggest the other team deserved more is a very weak marker.

Buy a ticket-win the raffle is fine, I'm more than happy with that approach to playing the game - but I'm not going to say from watching a game that SoT or passing % trump the context around them all the time.
 
Bluenose1979 said:
This is very much my point on some stats being a poor reflection of how a game is played.

A team can play utter shit and have one half-hit pish shot squirm through a keeper's legs and win, while the opponent hammers them all game but can't find the finish.

A team can have 20 tame, long shots at goal that get nothing while the opponent has one clinical one and score. Equally, using the shots stat to suggest the other team deserved more is a very weak marker.

Buy a ticket-win the raffle is fine, I'm more than happy with that approach to playing the game - but I'm not going to say from watching a game that SoT or passing % trump the context around them all the time.
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I agree in principle. However, for a game like last Tuesday, when all the other stats support the theory that the game was finely balanced then I consider it a fair enough measure. Neither team got anything from the game that they didn't merit.
 
JCDarcheville said:
This.

I’ve no idea what folk are watching. Sands was excellent tonight. Passed thought the lines and defended strongly.

Goldson cost us with weak defending and looked cumbersome.
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Goldson was winning everthing in the first half- apart from the goal I’ll give you that :D
 
Goldson wants to play every game and thinks he is undroppable.

Wouldn't drop him Saturday or next Wednesday night but definitely needs a rocket up his backside to up his game
 
I think Sands has been good all season and we have king there also.

What we as a support have to accept is that we want ball playing centre halves. It’s how wr start all our moves and this is fine, but at our level we will very rarely find someone to play in that position that doesn’t have a weakness or a mistake in them. We just have to hope that these are minimal - Goldson is a prime example of this. A net contributor with a few flaws.

Balogun can’t play that system unfortunately. The hope is that Davies comes in and is the left footed option.
 
kilwinningbear said:
I think Sands has been good all season and we have king there also.

What we as a support have to accept is that we want ball playing centre halves. It’s how wr start all our moves and this is fine, but at our level we will very rarely find someone to play in that position that doesn’t have a weakness or a mistake in them. We just have to hope that these are minimal - Goldson is a prime example of this. A net contributor with a few flaws.

Balogun can’t play that system unfortunately. The hope is that Davies comes in and is the left footed option.
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Our ball playign centre backs are not good enough to pull if off a ball playing centre half doenst just pass it square back and fore along the back which leads us into bother nearly everytime - unless its against spl dross
 
RotterdamBear said:
Our ball playign centre backs are not good enough to pull if off a ball playing centre half doenst just pass it square back and fore along the back which leads us into bother nearly everytime - unless its against spl dross
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We did it perfectly well against PSV with Lundstram breaking the press and Borna putting it through to Kent. It broke down a wee bit in the second half, but we were perfectly comfortable on the ball.
 
SDF said:
Goldson's not shite but the idea he's playing poorly(and he did on Tuesday) is because it's someone elses fault is nonsense.

Far too many times excuses are made for Goldson's poor games and mistakes. It was Worrall, it was Katic, it was Helander's lack of pace, it was Balogun, it was McGregor, it was Souttar and now it's Sands turn.

Players play bad. It happens. What we don't need is every excuse under the sun made for them.

Sands was excellent on Tuesday night. Goldson wasn't.
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The only time we will find that out is if he gets dropped or injured. If that happens I think people will be desperate to get him back as we saw recently with Kent.

That's just my opinion.
 
kilwinningbear said:
We did it perfectly well against PSV with Lundstram breaking the press and Borna putting it through to Kent. It broke down a wee bit in the second half, but we were perfectly comfortable on the ball.
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Unfortunately i missed the first half but it far from worked in the second

Gio seems to stubborn to change it when its not working as well which is really frustrating
 
Valley Bluenose said:
I agree in principle. However, for a game like last Tuesday, when all the other stats support the theory that the game was finely balanced then I consider it a fair enough measure. Neither team got anything from the game that they didn't merit.
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I'd say they skew in the wrong direction to be honest. They suggest we were the more likely team to win of the two and I'd disagree with that.

I think bar a massive stroke of luck, PSV can feel a bit hard done by not winning overall. While we edged the first-half, I don't think we looked more threatening over the 90, yet the stats would suggest otherwise.

Finely balanced, maybe, but I'd say they'll be quite content they've done enough to make them favourites and probably kicking themselves they gifted us the second goal and didn't take the chances they had when on top in the second 45.

We'll need a fairly monumental effort second leg IMHO, but anything is possible.
 
Bluenose1979 said:
I'd say they skew in the wrong direction to be honest. They suggest we were the more likely team to win of the two and I'd disagree with that.

I think bar a massive stroke of luck, PSV can feel a bit hard done by not winning overall. While we edged the first-half, I don't think we looked more threatening over the 90, yet the stats would suggest otherwise.

Finely balanced, maybe, but I'd say they'll be quite content they've done enough to make them favourites and probably kicking themselves they gifted us the second goal and didn't take the chances they had when on top in the second 45.

We'll need a fairly monumental effort second leg IMHO, but anything is possible.
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This one is from OPTA I believe. I think we underestimate how much we 'edged' the first half. I know I did. Looks like we were, by a considerable distance, much more likely.

 
joburgbear said:
the problem is the zonal marking & that's it in a nutshell, give them all a man to mark & stick to them, match their run & get up to challenge (easier said than done i know)
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It's the easiest way to defend. It's not perfect, but zonal has been proven time and time again to be flawed. Liverpool had a similar issue a few years ago, don't know if the changed it
 
I feel like we have looked ropey from set pieces right from the start of the season, like noticeably worse. We have been lucky not to concede a few more.
 
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