Change the Captain not the Manager

I don't really care if he's the captain. I just think Tav should be dropped for a few games. He's been below average for a while now.
 
Skyy Bluenose said:
I don't really care if he's the captain. I just think Tav should be dropped for a few games. He's been below average for a while now.
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And play who exactly?

Tavs been one of our best performers this season. Dropping him is just nonsense.

It’s chopping and changing the team that’s hindering us in my opinion
 
Vamos_buffalo said:
And play who exactly?

Tavs been one of our best performers this season. Dropping him is just nonsense.

It’s chopping and changing the team that’s hindering us in my opinion
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The great misnomer - Tav's been one of our best players.

He doesn't defend, so stick Middleton at right back, ala Claudio Reyna, against Dundee and Hamilton. Or stick one of the youths there for a couple of games. Surely they can hit the first man with less than 90% of crosses, like Tav has recently?

Blind faith is more nonsense than suggested change.
 
Skyy Bluenose said:
The great misnomer - Tav's been one of our best players.

He doesn't defend, so stick Middleton at right back, ala Claudio Reyna, against Dundee and Hamilton. Or stick one of the youths there for a couple of games. Surely they can hit the first man with less than 90% of crosses, like Tav has recently?

Blind faith is more nonsense than suggested change.
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Wow I guess your tired fella?

1st line of 2nd paragraph pretty much sums up your knowledge of the game.

Play an attacking wide man at RB?

You said tav doesn’t defend so what suggests that Middleton can defend?

Also check the stats mate, tav has the most assists in the entire league.

If only our actual attacking players would contribute as much. (Excusing Morelos)
 
I find the rhetoric often said across football of "needing 11 captains" across the park sometimes a bit too much, but also the importance of the captain.

That said, we are sorely missing (aside from a creative midfielder) someone to assert authority and let the others know on the pitch that they're not doing good enough and need to get their arse in gear (I like that colloquialism though!).
 
EKBB said:
I think you are overpaying the role and impact of a captain to be honest. I don't see how a better captain can turn an average team into a good one.
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A good captain motivates and cajoles his team. When things are not going right on the park a good captain can galvanize the players and remind them who they are playing for.
Gough, Butcher, Greig and even Barry Ferguson commanded the respect of the rest of the team.
I don't think Tav has the same aura, good player that he is... He's no captain.
 
Show me an example of where this has happened before and what the results were?
If you can find an example of a massive top flight club of similar standing to ourselves, so it's a fair comparison and then we can judge the merits of stripping Tavernier
 
Geerfc19 said:
Just one thing wrong with that. None of those player you mentioned play in the spfl.
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Not sure what relevance that has to my point about inspirational captains.
Outside of Brown and Shinnie id be struggling to name any others
 
Sasa- said:
And then he set up the 4th to seal it? Players can get tired you know.
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That was exactly my point mate.
He was shattered, has played the most out of any player in this country and still found that desire to get forward to seal it.
 
Skyy Bluenose said:
The great misnomer - Tav's been one of our best players.

He doesn't defend, so stick Middleton at right back, ala Claudio Reyna, against Dundee and Hamilton. Or stick one of the youths there for a couple of games. Surely they can hit the first man with less than 90% of crosses, like Tav has recently?

Blind faith is more nonsense than suggested change.
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Middleton at right back haha.
 
Skyy Bluenose said:
The great misnomer - Tav's been one of our best players.

He doesn't defend, so stick Middleton at right back, ala Claudio Reyna, against Dundee and Hamilton. Or stick one of the youths there for a couple of games. Surely they can hit the first man with less than 90% of crosses, like Tav has recently?

Blind faith is more nonsense than suggested change.
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Stick a left footed, off form, winger at right back? In what way is that similar to Reyna?:eek: One of the best things i've ever read on here:D
 
As stated earlier, the Butcher-style Captain just doesn't fit any more in the modern game. Those slating Tav as Captain, would you have Steven Davis instead? A Captain of his country on numerous occasions, no doubt backed in that role by many on here - but as far from a Butcher-style Captain as you could possibly get.

I simply cannot think of a modern day Butcher, Greig, Terry etc playing regularly as Captain at any top team.
 
The idea that handing somebody else the captains armband will magically turn these draws into victories is absolutely moronic. Same sh*t patter after every dodgy result.
 
Has this evolved from an original debate calling whether Gerrard should go?

Must have missed that one.

Anyway, whether Tavernier is or isn't the captain is not the issue with our lack of consistency.
 
TPB90 said:
The idea that handing somebody else the captains armband will magically turn these draws into victories is absolutely moronic. Same sh*t patter after every dodgy result.
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You say it yourself 'after every dodgy result'. There's a pattern and you should be able to analyse it, identify common contributory factors and take remedial action. The manager has now finally come out and stated that one of these is lack of leadership across the board, ie the current leadership isn't up to the job.
You'd rather we did nothing? Sticking your head in the sand and calling it magic, moronic or shit patter is great if you're a poster intent on cheap shots on a messageboard. Our manager isn't and has a team with a fundamental flaw and he has to eradicate it or we are phuked. Tactics, formations etc. won't win games if the players lack professionalism. The team is the thing, not pet players.
 
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TPB90 said:
The idea that handing somebody else the captains armband will magically turn these draws into victories is absolutely moronic. Same sh*t patter after every dodgy result.
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The OP doesn’t say that though.
 
It had been a while since we last had a Tav-bashing thread; the guy's been our best player this season after Morelos, always wants to get on the ball and make something happen, and is the player everyone looks to when we're up-against it. What a load of shite this thread is.
 
Blueboo said:
Manager- Gerrard has made mistakes but I believe he has the passion and hunger for our great club to succeed.

Captain- Tav good player but never a Rangers Captain and never will be. He doesn’t have fire, guts and up for the fight mentality that’s needed when the team are failing and they need picked up. I believe he is struggling with the pressure of the job and this shows in his performances.
So get a Captain in who will go on the pitch and face up to anything or anybody who stands in the way of our great club.
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I think captains act like captains - whether they have the armband or not. Lack of leadership at the weekend. Lack of people taking responsibility. They have shown they can do it which makes it all the more frustrating.
 
Aye because that will solve all of our problems.

Tav is our most important outfield player outwith Alfredo and even when the chips are down and he's not playing well he's still plugging away flying up and down that right wing.
 
Commentator said:
You say it yourself 'after every dodgy result'. There's a pattern and you should be able to analyse it, identify common contributory factors and take remedial action. The manager has now finally come out and stated that one of these is lack of leadership across the board, ie the current leadership isn't up to the job.
You'd rather we did nothing? Sticking your head in the sand and calling it magic, moronic or shit patter is great if you're a poster intent on cheap shots on a messageboard. Our manager isn't and has a team with a fundamental flaw and he has to eradicate it or we are phuked. Tactics, formations etc. won't win games if the players lack professionalism. The team is the thing, not pet players.
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What is going to change if we strip Tav of the captaincy??? Who would you give it to instead? And if there is somebody in our current dressing room then why do they need an armband to step up to the plate and be a leader on the pitch.

Its a f*cking joke of an argument every time we have a poor result. Changing the captaincy will literally make zero difference.

Its not sticking my head in the sand. Its just getting fed up with these tedious, brain dead threads.
 
Commentator said:
What would you say are the issues?
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Too many players not mentally strong enough to play consistently?

Perhaps Gerrard needs to show a degree of flexibility in tactics.

There are any number of possibly explanations but who is wearing an armband is not really high up on that list.
 
RFC97 said:
The OP doesn’t say that though.
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Well what is the point of the thread then? And why didn't he start it after we won at Pittodrie?

Tav is one of our best players and a very popular & well respected member of our dressing room. Stripping him of the captaincy would be a horrendous piece of management and thankfully our manager realises that instead of agreeing with some of the zoomers on this thread.
 
Just reading that press conference stuff going on just now.

I think that is a clear statement of intent from the manager taking Andy Halliday in there with him rather than others.

Read into that what you will.
 
Craigie said:
1.Too many players not mentally strong enough to play consistently?

2. Perhaps Gerrard needs to show a degree of flexibility in tactics.

3 There are any number of possibly explanations but who is wearing an armband is not really high up on that list.
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1. Agreed.
2. These players won't follow the manager's plans. He's said so and until 1. is sorted it's almost pointless.
3. Of course there are any number of possibilities but the second part is where we disagree. If the team are not following the manager's instructions then how does he he change that during the game? Shouting from the touchline can only go so far and you can look like a maniac. The manager needs a channel into the players during a game and that, typically, is the captain. Do you agree that he should be able to depend on the captain to lead or otherwise influence his teammates? The manager should be able to call him over and tell him that the plan is being ignored and to get the players to go back to it.
That's not happening, is it? So something needs to change.

Edit. I Don't think Tav will be dropped tomorrow night and perhaps he should be given yet another chance after the shot across the bows on Saturday. But the process has started.
 
Commentator said:
1. Agreed.
2. These players won't follow the manager's plans. He's said so and until 1. is sorted it's almost pointless.
3. Of course there are any number of possibilities but the second part is where we disagree. If the team are not following the manager's instructions then how does he he change that during the game? Shouting from the touchline can only go so far and you can look like a maniac. The manager needs a channel into the players during a game and that, typically, is the captain. Do you agree that he should be able to depend on the captain to lead or otherwise influence his teammates? The manager should be able to call him over and tell him that the plan is being ignored and to get the players to go back to it.
That's not happening, is it? So something needs to change.

Edit. I Don't think Tav will be dropped tomorrow night and perhaps he should be given yet another chance after the shot across the bows on Saturday. But the process has started.
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Are you honestly saying that the captain and not the manager should be influencing tactics?
 
EKBB said:
I think you are overpaying the role and impact of a captain to be honest. I don't see how a better captain can turn an average team into a good one.
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I've seen Barry Ferguson pick up a Rangers side by the scruff of the neck and nag and drive them to a result. For all his good qualities, Tav doesn't have that in him. So I guess it can depend on the mentality of the caprain. To be fair, it was a better Rangers side, but it can be done.
 
Commentator said:
1. Agreed.
2. These players won't follow the manager's plans. He's said so and until 1. is sorted it's almost pointless.
3. Of course there are any number of possibilities but the second part is where we disagree. If the team are not following the manager's instructions then how does he he change that during the game? Shouting from the touchline can only go so far and you can look like a maniac. The manager needs a channel into the players during a game and that, typically, is the captain. Do you agree that he should be able to depend on the captain to lead or otherwise influence his teammates? The manager should be able to call him over and tell him that the plan is being ignored and to get the players to go back to it.
That's not happening, is it? So something needs to change.

Edit. I Don't think Tav will be dropped tomorrow night and perhaps he should be given yet another chance after the shot across the bows on Saturday. But the process has started.
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You think that Tav isn't following the manager's instructions?

When things aren't going well Tavernier is the one player who constantly looks to get on the ball and make things happen.
 
TPB90 said:
You think that Tav isn't following the manager's instructions?

When things aren't going well Tavernier is the one player who constantly looks to get on the ball and make things happen.
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I didn't single Tav out for that anywhere in that post.
But, on Saturday and during each of our regular shitshows, no, he's not.
Here's what i see in our bad games, they follow a pattern. We start off hesitantly, we fanny about at the back, far, far too many easy passes, we give away the initiative. Tav's as guilty as anyone here. Last thirty or so minutes if 'something' hasn't happened we start taking it seriously and Tav, as you say, looks to get on the ball and do something.
We need to play the ninety minutes on the front foot.
 
Commentator said:
I didn't single Tav out for that anywhere in that post.
But, on Saturday and during each of our regular shitshows, no, he's not.
Here's what i see in our bad games, they follow a pattern. We start off hesitantly, we fanny about at the back, far, far too many easy passes, we give away the initiative. Tav's as guilty as anyone here. Last thirty or so minutes if 'something' hasn't happened we start taking it seriously and Tav, as you say, looks to get on the ball and do something.
We need to play the ninety minutes on the front foot.
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Explain to me how changing the captain will make any difference then?
 
EKBB said:
I think you are overpaying the role and impact of a captain to be honest. I don't see how a better captain can turn an average team into a good one.
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Your missing the point EKBB.
Whats meant is someone who could maybe urge others to up their efforts to show more dig
passion grit character fight for our team. Dae ye get it now.
 
Stevie McDougall said:
Your missing the point EKBB.
Whats meant is someone who could maybe urge others to up their efforts to show more dig
passion grit character fight for our team. Dae ye get it now.
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Surely, if they are of the calibre we require, then they should be doing that anyway? Why would they need someone else to gee them up? Each of them should be perfectly capable of geeing themselves up and leading by example to the best of their abilities. If they can't then they are no good to us.

Let's be honest, the sort of hunks we have in todays modern generation would probably burst into tears at the thought of someone like Greig or Butcher telling them they better get the finger out. It would probably see them retreat into their wee shell and perform even worse! As sad as it is, we are not back in the 70s-90s - that sort of 'man management' doesn't work any more.
 
TPB90 said:
Explain to me how changing the captain will make any difference then?
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C'mon, no one can say it definitely 'will' make any difference but I think it would be a very clear signal to all that this manager, unlike recent others, is deadly serious about making us winners and won't be deterred if he has to make unpopular choices. If his plans aren't implemented then everyone comes under scrutiny and anyone could be held responsible.
It would give someone else an opportunity to see what they could bring, Jack did it for the sheep, I'd make him co-captain and say we're trying something different, eg. putting the captain into the middle.
I'd expect a positive reaction from JT, let's see if he can win the captaincy back. Stepping back from the responsibility may allow him to do more of what he's good at. I'd also like to see it publlcly managed as an effort to help share the weight of responsibility for our ragged form not a blame game.
This isn't about putting the boot into Tav, this is about upping the performance of the team. Remember Tav scoring 25 yard free-kicks, rampaging down the wing and putting perfect balls into the box? We don't see enough of it now, we need more of that back.
 
Stevie McDougall said:
Your missing the point EKBB.
Whats meant is someone who could maybe urge others to up their efforts to show more dig
passion grit character fight for our team. Dae ye get it now.
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I’m sure everyone gets it. You, and others, believe if you shout and point that makes you a better captain or leader. If only it was as easy as that and if Tav was a bit more theatrical then we’d maybe be top of the league.
 
Folks are entitled to their opinion

But if they think demoting Tav will result in the edge we need to be more consistent I’m not sure I agree

It really boils down to if the players respect him not the fans
 
Valley Bluenose said:
Surely, if they are of the calibre we require, then they should be doing that anyway? Why would they need someone else to gee them up? Each of them should be perfectly capable of geeing themselves up and leading by example to the best of their abilities. If they can't then they are no good to us.

Let's be honest, the sort of hunks we have in todays modern generation would probably burst into tears at the thought of someone like Greig or Butcher telling them they better get the finger out. It would probably see them retreat into their wee shell and perform even worse! As sad as it is, we are not back in the 70s-90s - that sort of 'man management' doesn't work any more.
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Let's be honest here how many times have we been at when there appears to be nothing there Nothing.Think it would be good to see someone animated and geeing players up.
 
Stevie McDougall said:
Let's be honest here how many times have we been at when there appears to be nothing there Nothing.Think it would be good to see someone animated and geeing players up.
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'Someone animated and geeing players up' only works if it has an impact. That's the whole point. Players today don't respond to that sort of stuff. They either have it within them to respond when the chips are down or they don't. No amount of arm-waving and shouting by a team-mate is going to change that. What it does is give a visual signal to the fans, nothing more. In terms of actual impact on a colleague I'd suggest it amounts to zero.
 
I cant believe we still have to read this shite on this forum. Beyond parody now.

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