Club 1872 statement

iaatpies said:
Because its a massive departure from the norm. British football has never traditionally embraced fan involvement, never mind fan ownership. Our support is a particular issue as it is very conservative and tends to place faith in captains of industry,
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The support has traditionally favoured the 'sugar daddy' model of ownership.
 
jweebear said:
There are many Bears, some on here who run successful companies, to suggest non of them could sit on our board representing C1872 is wrong imo. It's not a fan ownership option buying DK shares, it an opportunity to increase fan influence through our increased shareholding and that input directed by a business professional.
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How would they get on the club 1872 board though? When was the last AGM? There were a few board resignations not that long ago that the members heard nothing about.
I've paid my money every month since the start, I can't remember the last time I had an email from them with any news of what they are up to.
 
Valley Bluenose said:
A place on the Board is in the gift of ALL shareholders at the AGM. Board Members have to be elected annually by the wider shareholders - whatever ‘deal’, if any, may be in place beforehand.
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At the 'meeting before the meeting' of the large shareholders, they all agree to back each others candidate.
 
I've never taken a part in fan ownership, either in the debates or the investing.
I think, as many have said, a strong level of ownership is desirable, total control is unworkable and not advisable.

It's not wholly surprising though. I think it's been quite clear for some time that King has wanted to step away. His relinquishing of the Chairmanship indicated as much. Whether that is business, health or family related is unclear and really unimportant. It's his decision and he can't be involved forever.

It is something to be interested in and watch and react to the developments to come, and hopefully it is doable and Club 1872 can be bolstered and reformed in a manner suitable to most.

Finally, I don't share any concerns as some have on here that this will have an impact on the on-field performance. There's no reason whatsoever for that to be the case.
 
iaatpies said:
Because its a massive departure from the norm. British football has never traditionally embraced fan involvement, never mind fan ownership. Our support is a particular issue as it is very conservative and tends to place faith in captains of industry,
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It's a massive change but I don't see why some think it will be a disaster
 
BrooklynBlue said:
I would imagine they will be swept up by current and new investors. King's original promise and the timing has meant C1872 have the first opportunity.

Ride through the pandemic and CL qualification, investor money becomes available.
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How often do we expect these guys to go to the well though? More importantly, how often do they have the funding to be able to go to the well - particularly if, between them, they’ve forked out £13m for King’s shares? And if it’s to be ‘new’ investors - where have they been hiding when others have stepped forward?
 
Hillheadbear said:
The support has traditionally favoured the 'sugar daddy' model of ownership.
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Which is great in the good times. Unfortunately it also masks unsustainable business models and leaves the club ripe for plunder in the bad times.

Rangers really can't survive David Murray Mk 2.
 
falkirkbear said:
How would they get on the club 1872 board though? When was the last AGM? There were a few board resignations not that long ago that the members heard nothing about.
I've paid my money every month since the start, I can't remember the last time I had an email from them with any news of what they are up to.
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Nor I, however you or I haven't given up on C1872. I believe in fans having shares in the club, I don't believe we will ever have fan ownership, I'm happy to have a seat on the board though through representation by a professional, picked by the members of C72
 
Papatango said:
I’m not so sure that’s correct.

The fan percentage share while significant would not be enough to stop say The King of Mongolia buying out the current shareholders at the current rate (50p not the 23p discounted rate being offered to C1872) and doing as he pleased with the club.

If i I’m not mistaken majority shareholder can pretty much do as they please.

I’m not so sure that’s correct.

The fan percentage share while significant would not be enough to stop say for example The King of Mongolia buying out the current shareholders at the current rate (50p not the 23p discounted rate being offered to C1872) and doing as he pleased with the club.

If I’m not mistaken a majority shareholder can pretty much do as they please.

It’s a great gesture by DK but there are lots of unanswered ’buts’ and lots of as yet unanswered questions.

Im pretty relaxed though as I’m sure that before the day is out Phil Three names will have issued an in-depth analysis of when we can expect to be joining Woolworths, Debenhams team al.
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To force purchase of all the shares I think you need to have acquired 80% in the first place. If C1872 have 25+% then that’s not possible.
 
EndOfDays said:
Alan Fraser resigned during lockdown in July, shortly after our last update. Although Alan’s time on the Board was short we thank him for that time and his offer to assist Club 1872 on specific projects once things return to some sort of normality. Stuart MacQuarrie resigned at the start of September after serving on the Board for a period of almost three years. We thank Stuart for his time on the Club 1872 Board and wish him well for the future. There is no requirement under the Articles for elections at this time and, operationally, Club 1872 is unaffected. It is the Board’s intention to examine its options once the ongoing restrictions imposed by Covid-19 are lifted and things return to a degree of normality
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if it’s unaffected then why did they need 5, were the 2 guys not contributing?
todays announcement means the need for a 7 person Board and elections is essential If C1872 is to raise its game and actually increase income rather than watch it drop year on year,
 
Anyone thinking the current major shareholders would allow C1872 to hold 25% +1 shares in the company is living in a scary dream world that would be incredibly dangerous for us as a club.

That power of veto that many view as a safeguard will be viewed by other potential investors as a red flag and they will stay well away.

I would suspect that King has given the supporters group the three years purchase period at the current price to keep them involved but also give the current board sufficient time to secure significant new investment to dilute his holding enough to keep them below 25%.
 
SuperGers07 said:
I wouldn’t envisage it being a top priority whatsoever given the clubs move away from that to the everyone anyone campaign

And majority of fans would also agree with the stance. Orange songs in this day and age have nothing to do with Rangers. It’s not a stick to beat club1872 with due to them being opposed to it.
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I think the stick to beat them with is slightly longer than you think

And the majority that you speak of is not what I would class as a .majority

Orange songs have as much right today at Ibrox as they did when songs began at football

The everyone anyone campaign......trojan horse for our enemies
 
I definitely would not envy anybody who had a seat on the board to represent fans. He’d need to go about like a tramp with a banger of a bicycle or he’d be stealing a wage, chased the blazer or some other phrase of the day.
 
sheddensbear said:
Get 4 Club 1872 members together and you'll get 5 or 6 opinions. I'd prefer one or several rich bluenose to buy his shares.
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Does Dave King want to sell to them though? He's doing this to safeguard the future of the Club in his mind. I think I would rather have a Park or similar buying them myself, I agree with you there.
 
I think this looks like a positive development, ensuring a prominent supporter voice in the governance of the club long term. The responsibility to use that voice wisely is a big one and it will be important that the vehicle for supporter involvement is effectively governed
 
KirkieRanger said:
Of course the Rangers fans will pay for it as they will be the beneficiaries, I understand how some supporters are unsure about it but this protects the club from future rats like fat mike and his ilk. Never forget just how near we were to dying due to those asset stripping bastards. There could be blocks of flats where the stadium now stands had they been allowed to carry on ripping off the club in order to line their own pockets. I am cautious but optimistic about the future of Rangers if we are stronger and united (I know, I know)and protected from the gangsters and con-men who so recently polluted the boardroom and never had the interests of us or our club at heart.
Minty sold his shares to whoever got him off the hook. King is selling to Rangers fans. As I said I cautiously welcome this development.
Club 1872 IS the fans and a democratic group who will always make the interests of Rangers and the supporters the first and foremost priority.

W.A.T.P.
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Indeed. Get involved. If you don't like the way its going use your vote.

King was a figurehead, major invester and motivator but not a sugar daddy. C1872 will own a significant slice but there are other investers there who will continue to guide us into the future.
 
If the intention is to permit supporters to increase their investment in the club, then the club could also allow ST holders to purchase shares to the value of their ST each year.
Club 1872 is an unnecessary intermediary. Anyone who wishes Club 1872 to be their representative could invest through them, or proxy their shares to them.
Also my understanding of Club 1872 is that each member has one vote regardless of their contribution, and that any vote put to members is carried on a simple majority.
Club 1872 may currently be a voice for the supporter, there is no guarantee that this will always be the case.
 
iaatpies said:
Unfortunately it also masks unsustainable business models and leaves the club ripe for plunder in the bad times.
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Exactly this. I pay a small amount via Direct Debit to C1872 each month but don't have any great insight into how well equipped it is for this and how well it's functioning at the moment..

However imho and with no expertise or great depth of knowledge...

Anyone talking about C1872's ability to provide loans for equity or additional investment has surely somehow forgotten the financial troubles we have been in these last years? We have to run the club sustainably and that means no sugar daddy's really. We are coming to the end of this last period of recovery into "normality".

Anyone worried about "fan ownership" has surely forgotten the horrendous management of the club, *by its major shareholders*, these last years. As long as C1872 is run as a democratic organisation with each member having a vote, 25% ownership guarantees that some of these decisions literally cannot happen without the majority of the fans in C1872 agreeing. Note that this is a majority, I'm sure there will be loads of different opinions within C1872 but that's why it's a vote (a good one where everyone respects the result )

Would I like Dave King to stick about and C1872 to buy other / new shares? Yes I think so. Buying through new shares would cost more money to get to 25% though and it seems the point DK is making is that he's not immortal and would rather fans had his shares than someone else (Mike Ashley, Easleys, some random con man with a Castle, etc)

As major shareholder we would have a say but wouldn't be running the place. That's what a CEO and executive team are for.

Lots to be wary of but overall good news I think.
 
Hillheadbear said:
If C1872 are going to be asking the support for £13 million then the first thing they will have to provide is a prospectus. I wonder if they are cognisant of how much work there is going to be before any such prospectus can be issued?
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There may be a way of structuring it by using the prospectus exemption which allows you to raise up to €8m in any 12 month period, so you could in theory, say, raise €8m in 12 months and then a further €8m in the next 12 months. But your general point (in this and other posts) is absolutely right that this is all proper, technical stuff in respect of which proper, professional advice (and appropriate corporate governance) is needed. It wouldn’t be difficult for Club 1872 directors etc, well meaning though I am sure they are, to sleep walk into making a mess of some of this stuff.
 
I think it is a good thing - but as many have suggested, the devil is in the detail.

Dave King deserves the chance to get his money out. He stood up when we needed it and I for one will be eternally grateful.

I’m sure that club 1872 realise they have some huge steps to make to convince fans to invest, as @Hillheadbear succinctly puts in his previous comments.

As an existing 1872 member, without a clear vision presented to potential investors and proper corporate governance, I will not invest.

This investment will result in significant power and influence on the future direction of our club, it’s not just a blazer. It also requires a level of professionalism and lack of ego.

i truly hope we can seize this opportunity.
 
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Hillheadbear said:
First, they don't have £13 million to invest. That money still has to be found.

Second, they are buying out Dave King in order to have enough shares to, hopefully, block any future spivs.
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A potentially short-term solution as their shareholding could get diluted in the future.
 
Tim Hunter said:
If the intention is to permit supporters to increase their investment in the club, then the club could also allow ST holders to purchase shares to the value of their ST each year.
Club 1872 is an unnecessary intermediary. Anyone who wishes Club 1872 to be their representative could invest through them, or proxy their shares to them.
Also my understanding of Club 1872 is that each member has one vote regardless of their contribution, and that any vote put to members is carried on a simple majority.
Club 1872 may currently be a voice for the supporter, there is no guarantee that this will always be the case.
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This isn't the club - this is Dave King.

He wants to disinvest. I doubt Club 1872 have agitated for him to sell. He wants out - they are one of the few buyers. They get first dibs.

The alternatives are Dave King sells to someone else. The other sugar bears on the board will need to hand over cash to cover the season.
 
People have been crying out for decades for our fans to have a greater say in the running of our club and Dave King has given us the vehicle to do just that.
That's why I joined C1872 in the first place and why I continue to support them.
They're never ever going to be "in control", just a voice at the table.
I just don't get the negativity against this!
 
Be interested to hear what the board have to say. If club 1872 have £13 million why not a share issue ?
 
Tim Hunter said:
If the intention is to permit supporters to increase their investment in the club, then the club could also allow ST holders to purchase shares to the value of their ST each year.
Club 1872 is an unnecessary intermediary. Anyone who wishes Club 1872 to be their representative could invest through them, or proxy their shares to them.
Also my understanding of Club 1872 is that each member has one vote regardless of their contribution, and that any vote put to members is carried on a simple majority.
Club 1872 may currently be a voice for the supporter, there is no guarantee that this will always be the case.
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Not sure but I think the issue with individual shareholders is their reasonably small shareholdings could be gathered up by a single entity again (think Mike Ashley or something).

Having them owned by an organisation specifically existing to hold the shares protects them and keeps them with fans.

I'm sure there are issues with this and who the intermediary is could be debated but I think that's the theory?
 
byebyethehihi said:
The whole point of fan ownership groups is to prevent the likes of what we have gone through in recent years happening.

King always said he wanted to sell back to the fans for the same reason.

This was meant to happen, maybe the surprise is the timing.

Club 1872 is a democratic model, and although at times it has appeared to be compromised it is by far a more preferable major controlling interest than the likes of Whyte and barra boy shadowy asset strippers.

I'm interested to see how they expect to move forward considering there is a structure of one member one vote which includes one off payment life members and direct debit contributors.

There are potential negatives in the small detail, but I hope they pull it off.
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There maybe have to hold an EGM to iron out the details but I'm with you all the way.

W.A.T.P.
 
not sure i agree with this, our fans like to much in-fighting for this to work out, i'd prefer King to keep his share holding
 
Tim Hunter said:
If the intention is to permit supporters to increase their investment in the club, then the club could also allow ST holders to purchase shares to the value of their ST each year.
Club 1872 is an unnecessary intermediary. Anyone who wishes Club 1872 to be their representative could invest through them, or proxy their shares to them.
Also my understanding of Club 1872 is that each member has one vote regardless of their contribution, and that any vote put to members is carried on a simple majority.
Club 1872 may currently be a voice for the supporter, there is no guarantee that this will always be the case.
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People get their season ticket for their season ticket money. A company can’t give itself away to its customers every time they buy something.
 
Wow, that's a bolt from the blue.
As others have already said I also have reservations about C1872, and am nervous about Dave King walking away.
Will watch this very carefully and if they C1872 can manage this without turning it into a shitshow.
I would most likely be on board with this and invest.
 
iaatpies said:
Which is why there needs to be a massive effort to address the concerns of supporters. Fan ownership is an alien concept on these shores. That's a by product of how our football emerged. We were professional from the early days and our clubs were built on the back of Victorian and Edwardian philanthropists who wanted to give something back to their home towns or cities. Its something that works throughout world football. There's no reason why it couldn't work in the UK. It would however take a huge change in fan attitudes and understanding of how fan ownership works.
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When Club 1872 was being launched I suggested a low cost, one off, life time membership that could be purchased by individuals for themselves and as a gift for others. As an example I would have bought at least 10 for friends and family such as my 89 year old mother, the in laws, my daughters in Oz and their partners etc. By my reckoning we could have had over 200,000 members. This would have made us one of the biggest organisations in Scotland.

I was aware the majority of these members wouldn't be very active but the sheer volume would have given Club 1872 political clout. It would have given us power and a direct link with a vast pool of potential future investors.

I dont know if this would have been better than the current model but my feeling is the emphasis on raising funds from the outset has proved detrimental to our fan membership/ownership aims. Less than 8,000 members is just not good enough for a club with our fanbase.
 
Hillheadbear said:
First, they don't have £13 million to invest. That money still has to be found.

Second, they are buying out Dave King in order to have enough shares to, hopefully, block any future spivs.
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Well when they find it, they could invest it directly into The Club.

We have more than enough credible, separate, investors to alleviate any concerns about Spivs.
 
itsoorbilly said:
Far better to sell on the open market and let spies back in ? This is a wonderful opportunity to restructure Club 1872 over the next 3 years and be prepared to participate in the running of the club
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100% agree with you. There are plenty who will snipe and criticise from the sidelines. That is the easy and negative option,when they should be prepared to take part and influence the debates from the inside as a member, but then again, maybe that requires too much effort to some.

W.A.T.P.
 
KirkieRanger said:
100% agree with you. There are plenty who will snipe and criticise from the sidelines. That is the easy and negative option,when they should be prepared to take part and influence the debates from the inside as a member, but then again, maybe that requires too much effort to some.

W.A.T.P.
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I dont think its lack of effort that's the problem.
 
dynamo_rosco said:
It shouldn’t go unnoticed that Dave King, a man who always has the best interest of the club, has confirmed he feels c1872 is the right body to sell his shares to. This mindset is also backed by the current shareholders.
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Much of what Kings says makes perfect sense and there is a desire to see a fan based organisation involved. However there is a significant difference between the concept of a fan based group being involved in the running of the club and the practical application. As for this being the mindset of the current shareholders this will partly be driven by their desire to fund the club rather than purchase from an existing holder.
 
Captain Cutlass said:
People have been crying out for decades for our fans to have a greater say in the running of our club and Dave King has given us the vehicle to do just that.
That's why I joined C1872 in the first place and why I continue to support them.
They're never ever going to be "in control", just a voice at the table.
I just don't get the negativity against this!
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Think the negativity just comes from attitudes in this country . Fans get emotional very quickly (see that lot across the city ) if they had a meaningful seat would they make rash decisions based on emotion. Another attitude comes from it being so uncommon . I can’t think of another big club in the uk where the fans have 25% of shares. Man U - glazers, Chelsea - Roman , Man City sheiks, even Celtic - Desmond. It does not happen in this country so no one can see a real life example of how it works
 
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