Club 1872 statement

[Ross_]

I have a question - if someone could answer.

if club1872 cant raise the full 13m what happens then? do investors like park / Gibson / Taylor or Letham for example have the opportunity to buy them?

ie in my head ... say club1872 raise 6.5m (1/2) can they take on an additional 1/2 of DK shares (approx 10% ish) and any of the above if they wished to could buy the remaining 6.5m shares ?

i would be interested in investing but i think trying to raise 13m wont be easy especially now.

 

[Nizzy72]

If you're not yet a member of Club 1872, then why?

 

[Barisic's Bandage]

I really am not sold on fan ownership.
Also, i always feel the club is in safe hands when mr King is involved. Would be slightly uneasy at the thought of him being out of things altogether.

It's not fan ownership.

 

[Northampton_Loyalist]

I'm not sure what you are driving at. Are you suggesting Club 1872 behaved improperly buying fat man's shares? Or are you just saying how you think C1872 should have gone about buying his shares?
Club 1872 will have a strategy to raise money for buying DK's shares. Part of that will be selling the idea to the support. Some will be keen to buy in, and some might take persuading. Nobody is being forced. If you want to buy in, great, if you don't, don't.

Sorry if it is not clear what I mean.

I feel that BEFORE a members organisation embarks on a multi-million scheme to buy existing shares, it should at least ask it's membership if they want to go in that direction. Members money has already been spent on this, will continue to be spent and time and effort will clearly follow. Without even a hint to the people who's money that is.

My view on the Ashley share situation is that it was a good idea, was voted on and carried out. My view on this idea is that it was not voted on, not discussed, not even hinted at and that it is now appearing out of thin air to be bought into or not. It might be a great way for C1872 to buy shares at under market value, but it 100% puts the membership at the risk of needing to find millions time after time to maintain that shareholding.

The question of whether holding on for a fresh share issue or buying King's shares is the correct way forward is 100% not something that a board that cannot communicate with their membership in any meaningful way, is under several board room bust up clouds and has a terrible reputation for openness should be unilaterally deciding and then implementing without even giving a few answers to some vitally important questions.


This is 100% symptomatic of the organisation, the people currently running it and the way they feel that they can do as they like, with the membership being left with 'Nobody is being forced. If you want to buy in, great, if you don't, don't.' after having paid in millions over the past few years. I stopped paying in for these exact reasons after yet another board room fight that was NEVER explained and which was only public through vague releases by disgruntled ex board members.

 

[cambridgeblue]

I have a question - if someone could answer.

if club1872 cant raise the full 13m what happens then? do investors like park / Gibson / Taylor or Letham for example have the opportunity to buy them?

That is entirely up to DK.

 

[laptoployal]

It

Unfortunately, Legacy members/contributors will not be giving a penny back to the club.

It will help protect against future spivs

 

[Porto Loyal]

The ideal is for C1872 to have at least 25% of the share capital that way no special resolutions can be passed without the approval of the members of C1872. 10%

 

[Earl of Leven]

Just spoke to my Dad - as a wee anecdote - and he wants to do it but is suspicious of Club 1872 and would like to see accounts, board members, and maybe a 'meet the team' presentation. Said he 'has no real idea what they do or who they all are'....

 

[Earl of Leven]

Surley fan representation at board level is s good thing and something FF( especially the fanzine) has been calling out for since the 90’s

Not that simple. Club 1872 aren't as open or representative as many would like AND some fans want such sums invested in club directly: "Why raise £13m and not spend it on scouts and coaches?"

 

[sheabo]

Chris Graham has my fully respect for his work over the years.I was just wondering what the alleged ‘riff’ between him & Douglas Park was mate.

Not having a go bud. Just think we are too quick to turn on our own.

I've put my money where my mouth is this morning re: the Legacy donation. I'm fearful a lot wont because people online especially will take sides behind personalities in our support. This isn't about that though. This is about getting to a point of 25%+1 to ensure that we don't have dark days again that the support can't stop.

 

[Northampton_Loyalist]

Not having a go bud. Just think we are too quick to turn on our own.

I've put my money where my mouth is this morning re: the Legacy donation. I'm fearful a lot wont because people online especially will take sides behind personalities in our support. This isn't about that though. This is about getting to a point of 25%+1 to ensure that we don't have dark days again that the support can't stop.

This achieves that. Right up to the point further shares are issued in lieu of debt repayments to other directors and the membership of C1872 is immediately put in the position of needing to raise more funds to maintain the shareholding. And the next time we need a few million to pay off a manager. And the next time we need to renovate a stand. And the next time we etc etc etc.


When staunchly pro fan ownership/involvement people on FF such as Pies, EoL, a couple of admin and the owner of the site are ALL voicing concerns over both the decision to buy 'old' shares and the people proposing it happens, folk would do very well to pay attention.

 

[Woodrow Call]

Thankfully, even if C1872 is successful with this, it is a long way from fan ownership.

I'm happy enough if C1872 secure Dave King's shares, but I'd be 100% against fan ownership.

I'd like you to own us Mearns:-}

 

[bluetonic]

Not that simple. Club 1872 aren't as open or representative as many would like AND some fans want such sums invested in club directly: "Why raise £13m and not spend it on scouts and coaches?"

I assumed the money would go back to Dave King?

 

[MearnsUnionist]

I'd like you to own us Mearns:-}

No you wouldn't Woodrow and neither would I.

 

[Brizblue]

Not that simple. Club 1872 aren't as open or representative as many would like AND some fans want such sums invested in club directly: "Why raise £13m and not spend it on scouts and coaches?"

Because if DK shares are sold on open market, a spiv could become major shareholder and decide how fans investment is spent

 

[Northampton_Loyalist]

Because if DK shares are sold on open market, a spiv could become major shareholder and decide how fans investment is spent

There are several ways in-between selling to a spiv on the open market and selling to C1872 for King to sell his shares.

 

[the_ref]

If you're not yet a member of Club 1872, then why?

because every time I think about (re)joining, they come out with some nonsense that puts me off them.

last thing I remember, it was the directors leaving, clearly under a cloud, but no transparency or discussion on what was happening.

really don't get much of a view on what they are actually doing or how they are working, and I have very little confidence in them in the way they are currently run.
Note - this is not a personal dig at anyone, as I know there are good folk involved, and they all have Rangers at heart.

It's a challenge to get the right personnel and governance in this sort of organisation, but it's fundamental if we want a group like this to be owning 25% of Rangers.

I joined RST at the start, thought it was better run and more effective, but feels the scaling up/merging has lost that somewhat.

 

[sheabo]

This achieves that. Right up to the point further shares are issued in lieu of debt repayments to other directors and the membership of C1872 is immediately put in the position of needing to raise more funds to maintain the shareholding. And the next time we need a few million to pay off a manager. And the next time we need to renovate a stand. And the next time we etc etc etc.


When staunchly pro fan ownership/involvement people on FF such as Pies, EoL, a couple of admin and the owner of the site are ALL voicing concerns over both the decision to buy 'old' shares and the people proposing it happens, folk would do very well to pay attention.

I get that. But surely that will be what the continued ask of £10 per month continuing beyond the legacy payment would pay for? And is this not what members up until now have been paying towards?

I'm not a finance expert and when it comes to Rangers my heart overrules my head often, but this seems like a sensible thing to do.

Surely the model for the club overall is to get to a point where the big asks that you mentioned would be covered by continued success on the park (Champions League/Europa League) and or player sales.

 

[Earl of Leven]

I assumed the money would go back to Dave King?

Exactly. Many fans don't see that as a way to spend £500 in these economically tough times.

 

[Earl of Leven]

Because if DK shares are sold on open market, a spiv could become major shareholder and decide how fans investment is spent

Yes, but you're preaching to the converted. There WILL be opposition to this.

 

[iaatpies]

This achieves that. Right up to the point further shares are issued in lieu of debt repayments to other directors and the membership of C1872 is immediately put in the position of needing to raise more funds to maintain the shareholding. And the next time we need a few million to pay off a manager. And the next time we need to renovate a stand. And the next time we etc etc etc.


When staunchly pro fan ownership/involvement people on FF such as Pies, EoL, a couple of admin and the owner of the site are ALL voicing concerns over both the decision to buy 'old' shares and the people proposing it happens, folk would do very well to pay attention.

I'm not voicing concerns so much as setting out a few realities.

I've been in a situation where the majority shareholders in a football club have flat out said that they would oppose any fundraising activities that involved diluting their shareholding as they were unwilling to pay any money directly to maintain their shareholding percentage. That was said in the club's boardroom during a meeting between the owners, club board and supporters trust board. It's an important issue to discuss because if you apply that mindset to Rangers then it creates a significant concern about fundraising. It makes debt for equity deals difficult. The flip side of that? A business that is continually reliant on director loans or directors underwriting losses with debt for equity deals is operating on an unsustainable basis. Fans think that so long as a rich investor is willing to underwrite the losses then the current model can continue. It can't and there comes a point where people are no longer willing to simply give the club money to underwrite 7 or 8 figure losses.

I back fan ownership in all of it's forms because the fans are the single biggest stakeholder group in football. That doesnt mean that the fan ownership model that's right for a lower league club is the same model that'll work for Hearts or Motherwell or a model that would work for Rangers. It has to be done on a club by club basis. 25% of the shares clearly wouldn't give absolute protection to the club and for the biggest sides I'm generally in favour of the German 50% +1 model. But at the very least I'd expect a group with 25% of the shares to have board representation. Its a meaningful level if other investors are sitting on similar amounts. It gives the right to call an EGM if needed. I've always maintained that theres a model that would work for Rangers and that it's up to the supporters groups to find that model and sell it to the fans.

The challenges in that are huge. You're working within an environment in UK football where benevolent benefactors have been the norm for much of the game's professional lifetime. UK football didnt really evolve from amateur multi-sports societies (although clearly there have been clubs where that's exactly what happened). The Rangers support are particularly difficult to win over as it's predominantly politically conservative, pro-business and anti-collective bargaining. Even at the absolute worst under David Murray we had people turning against the RST because they were trying to highlight concerns over the way he was running the club. We had people flocking to support Craig Whyte before it all went belly up. Those same fans were heralding the arrival of Charles Green. It's a massive job to convince a sceptical support that some form of fan ownership and fan representation is the way forward. And that's not even touching on the effort needed to make sure that Club 1872 is fit for purpose as a fans organisation or that the actual plan to buy King's shares over the next 3 years is viable. That was how Motherwell eventually did their fan takeover, with a private financer gradually transferring shares to the Well Society over a period of time. A similar situation with Dave King may well be appropriate but the devil is in the detail. When the shares were purchased then does Club 1872 look to buy more shares as and when they become available? Does it limit it's maximum shareholding and look to act as king maker rather than pursuing long-term outright ownership? Could regular payments to C1872 become a form of long term financing, with the group acting as a club sponsor in future years as a means of putting money into the club after covering it's running costs and the cost of club elections for it's board representation?

I'd certainly urge caution because it's really easy to get wrong. C1872 could propose the wrong model. The fans could refuse to buy into it in sufficient numbers. The group could fall foul of internal issues. If successful then there are implications. But I'd still say that fan representation and greater fan ownership is something that evert club in the UK should be pursuing. For far too long fans have been ignored or taken for granted. It's our game. They're our clubs. Owners, chairmen, managers and players come and go but it's the fans who remain constant over the course of a lifetime and that has to be reflected in the way clubs are owned and run.

 

[ahalfallover]

because every time I think about (re)joining, they come out with some nonsense that puts me off them.

last thing I remember, it was the directors leaving, clearly under a cloud, but no transparency or discussion on what was happening.

really don't get much of a view on what they are actually doing or how they are working, and I have very little confidence in them in the way they are currently run.
Note - this is not a personal dig at anyone, as I know there are good folk involved, and they all have Rangers at heart.

It's a challenge to get the right personnel and governance in this sort of organisation, but it's fundamental if we want a group like this to be owning 25% of Rangers.

I joined RST at the start, thought it was better run and more effective, but feels the scaling up/merging has lost that somewhat.

how do you know

 

[LJ50]

Sorry if it is not clear what I mean.

I feel that BEFORE a members organisation embarks on a multi-million scheme to buy existing shares, it should at least ask it's membership if they want to go in that direction. Members money has already been spent on this, will continue to be spent and time and effort will clearly follow. Without even a hint to the people who's money that is.

My view on the Ashley share situation is that it was a good idea, was voted on and carried out. My view on this idea is that it was not voted on, not discussed, not even hinted at and that it is now appearing out of thin air to be bought into or not. It might be a great way for C1872 to buy shares at under market value, but it 100% puts the membership at the risk of needing to find millions time after time to maintain that shareholding.

The question of whether holding on for a fresh share issue or buying King's shares is the correct way forward is 100% not something that a board that cannot communicate with their membership in any meaningful way, is under several board room bust up clouds and has a terrible reputation for openness should be unilaterally deciding and then implementing without even giving a few answers to some vitally important questions.


This is 100% symptomatic of the organisation, the people currently running it and the way they feel that they can do as they like, with the membership being left with 'Nobody is being forced. If you want to buy in, great, if you don't, don't.' after having paid in millions over the past few years. I stopped paying in for these exact reasons after yet another board room fight that was NEVER explained and which was only public through vague releases by disgruntled ex board members.

Whilst I think this is a fair question to ask - as are others asked of C1872 - there is a commercial aspect to this in that you can't really negotiate publicly the terms of a purchase of private asset.

Ultimately, C1872 members are now being asked to back the proposed transaction by supporting it financially. The "vote" on whether to by King's shareholding will be the success, or otherwise, of the fundraising campaign.

I share your frustration with the operation of C1872. It's a great principle that isn't functioning properly in practice IMO. But I don't agree with criticism of them for only announcing this proposal once the terms had been agreed with King.

 

[ahalfallover]

Just spoke to my Dad - as a wee anecdote - and he wants to do it but is suspicious of Club 1872 and would like to see accounts, board members, and maybe a 'meet the team' presentation. Said he 'has no real idea what they do or who they all are'....

plus their opinions on the subjects relating to the support

@steincolin

 

[Valley Bluenose]

There is also a limit you can ask fans to stump up.

For years on here the cry was 'fan ownership' - now its 'maybe not'. Which is fine, I'm in a sort of halfway house, more influence but not ownership.

The fans, as King acknowledges, are hugely important. Critical in fact. However, nobody is 'forcing' anybody to buy into this. We all have a choice. If the fans don't want to stump up they won't. What is certain, however, is that King - or his family - is selling his shares. He/they want the money. If the fans don't want them I'm sure someone else will. Lets just hope its someone we are happy with.

My guess is he will have already offered them to those currently on the Board and they've said 'no thanks'. Purely speculation on my part though..

FWIW I will probably back this scheme, even though I'm not currently a member of Club 1872. I don't think there is a chance in Hell of raising £13m though.

 

[AdiCR2]

5% will be paid to Club 1872 Limited to meet administrative and marketing expenses

95% will be retained by Club 1872 Shares Community Interest Company to purchase shares in RIFC.

This is what worries me. 5% is a significant amount to cover administrative and marketing expenses. Can we see the accounts of Club 1872 recently and where the money has been going? That's almost 700k on 'admin costs and marketing expenses'

 

[ahalfallover]

For years on here the cry was 'fan ownership' - now its 'maybe not'. Which is fine, I'm in a sort of halfway house, more influence but not ownership.

The fans, as King acknowledges, are hugely important. Critical in fact. However, nobody is 'forcing' anybody to buy into this. We all have a choice. If the fans don't want to stump up they won't. What is certain, however, is that King - or his family - is selling his shares. He/they want the money. If the fans don't want them I'm sure someone else will. Lets just hope its someone we are happy with.

My guess is he will have already offered them to those currently on the Board and they've said 'no thanks'. Purely speculation on my part though..

FWIW I will probably back this scheme, even though I'm not currently a member of Club 1872. I don't think there is a chance in Hell of raising £13m though.

Since the end of the Murray era
where the support was seen as a thorn in his side

I want Rangers fans at helm with best interests at heart but C1872 right now doesn't fill me with confidence given a previous encounter .

 

[fergie1959]

No idea whether to like this or not. My ooze has never been so bambled.

 

[Northampton_Loyalist]

I get that. But surely that will be what the continued ask of £10 per month continuing beyond the legacy payment would pay for? And is this not what members up until now have been paying towards?

I'm not a finance expert and when it comes to Rangers my heart overrules my head often, but this seems like a sensible thing to do.

Surely the model for the club overall is to get to a point where the big asks that you mentioned would be covered by continued success on the park (Champions League/Europa League) and or player sales.

£13 million going to the club over £13 million going to King mitigates the need for external funding immediately and would, in all likelihood, cover a full 12 months or more of current operating losses, reducing the further watering down of existing shares. C1872 steadily and slowly increasing their shareholding using their actual membership numbers and more importantly, income, guarantees that C1872 reaches it's 'real' position in terms of how much is invested in the club and how much is generated from memberships. This means that their holdings would naturally be maintained by the membership at the levels they should be at. Fund raising and one-off purchases to buy new shares would then improve both the club's financial position AND C1872's standing within the club rather than just one or the other.


I am not saying for a second that this is a bad idea. I am saying very clearly that C1872 in it's current form and with it's current reputation and standing with the support is a poor, very poor, vehicle for ANY share purchase, let alone one making it the largest single shareholder.

The sad thing is that the vast majority of the problems that are manifest with C1872 are easily, and I mean very easily, fixed; Openness, honesty, an audit and some clear guidance on who has done what, why and what will happen in the future.

 

[High Society]

Not having a go bud. Just think we are too quick to turn on our own.

I've put my money where my mouth is this morning re: the Legacy donation. I'm fearful a lot wont because people online especially will take sides behind personalities in our support. This isn't about that though. This is about getting to a point of 25%+1 to ensure that we don't have dark days again that the support can't stop.

History would suggest it’s about money. DP has pumped Millions into RFC and he may not appreciate some of the things C1872 have been doing recently.
CG is not on the Board if C1872 but he’s still an advisor as far as I know.

 

[Northampton_Loyalist]

I'm not voicing concerns so much as setting out a few realities.

.......................

And that's not even touching on the effort needed to make sure that Club 1872 is fit for purpose as a fans organisation or that the actual plan to buy King's shares over the next 3 years is viable. That was how Motherwell eventually did their fan takeover, with a private financer gradually transferring shares to the Well Society over a period of time. A similar situation with Dave King may well be appropriate but the devil is in the detail. When the shares were purchased then does Club 1872 look to buy more shares as and when they become available? Does it limit it's maximum shareholding and look to act as king maker rather than pursuing long-term outright ownership? Could regular payments to C1872 become a form of long term financing, with the group acting as a club sponsor in future years as a means of putting money into the club after covering it's running costs and the cost of club elections for it's board representation?

I'd certainly urge caution because it's really easy to get wrong. C1872 could propose the wrong model. The fans could refuse to buy into it in sufficient numbers. The group could fall foul of internal issues. If successful then there are implications. But I'd still say that fan representation and greater fan ownership is something that evert club in the UK should be pursuing. For far too long fans have been ignored or taken for granted. It's our game. They're our clubs. Owners, chairmen, managers and players come and go but it's the fans who remain constant over the course of a lifetime and that has to be reflected in the way clubs are owned and run.

Is what i was meaning. You would agree with me in saying that as things stand, C1872 has a huge number of things to get in place before asking for £13 million in cash from the support.

 

[Valley Bluenose]

..

My view on the Ashley share situation is that it was a good idea, was voted on and carried out. My view on this idea is that it was not voted on, not discussed, not even hinted at and that it is now appearing out of thin air to be bought into or not. It might be a great way for C1872 to buy shares at under market value, but it 100% puts the membership at the risk of needing to find millions time after time to maintain that shareholding.
..

Was it voted on? I'm not sure it was since it was all a bit cloak and dagger. I cant recall, though my memory is telling me the first we knew of this was when it was announced that as part of one of the many 'deals' to get shot of Ashley half his shares had been sold to Club 1872 and the other half to Julian Wolhardt. Seems such a long time ago though.

 

[Haining84]

Since the end of the Murray era
where the support was seen as a thorn in his side

I want Rangers fans at helm with best interests at heart but C1872 right now doesn't fill me with confidence given a previous encounter .

What was the previous encounter?Because they didn’t back singing ‘orange songs’?

 

[RFC_Champions]

C1872 have their issue. Of that they’re are no doubts, and I’m certain that it’s something they’ll now need to govern properly with the appropriately qualified personnel.

However there’s a few jealous posters outing themselves on here over what c1872 are closely aiming to achieve. Maybe it’s a throwback to the divisive days of RST, RSA, Rangers First etc.

Or Follow Follow vs Rangers Media.

United we stand, divided we fall....

 

[Yosser]

I applaud Dave King for this strategy but have a few doubts about it. Firstly, why now? Given that it'll take 3 years to transition why not wait till CL qualification, league won etc?
Secondly, going by our accounts the majority of major shareholders provided interest free loans over the last financial year, consequently taken as shares in subsequent issues. Club 1872 representing 20,000 would probably not be able to do this this potentially depriving the club of a much needed source of income.
Would this have a detrimental long term effect?

 

[Northampton_Loyalist]

Whilst I think this is a fair question to ask - as are others asked of C1872 - there is a commercial aspect to this in that you can't really negotiate publicly the terms of a purchase of private asset.

Ultimately, C1872 members are now being asked to back the proposed transaction by supporting it financially. The "vote" on whether to by King's shareholding will be the success, or otherwise, of the fundraising campaign.

I share your frustration with the operation of C1872. It's a great principle that isn't functioning properly in practice IMO. But I don't agree with criticism of them for only announcing this proposal once the terms had been agreed with King.

What the first people SHOULD have known about this was;

'David King has agreed a private transfer of his shareholding to C1872 for a set price. Does the membership wish to put in place plans to make it happen?'

Not

'David King has agreed a private transfer of his shareholding to C1872 for a set price. How would you like to pay, before even knowing how it is going to be administered?'

 

[ahalfallover]

What was the previous encounter?Because they didn’t back singing ‘orange songs’?

Put it this way, if that is their view......then right away they are not going to be in favour with alot of Rangers supporters.

also I do remember another issue when they first started they ditched the RSC section that they had planned during their creation.

so as you can see, am edgy

 

[iaatpies]

Is what i was meaning. You would agree with me in saying that as things stand, C1872 has a huge number of things to get in place before asking for £13 million in cash from the support.

It does. I see that as a challenge rather than a problem. It's for C1872 to get right and then to convince the support that it's worth backing.

 

[jweebear]

I don't think C1872 will be in a position to buy all DK's shares, but if they can buy, say a third of them, how would that be received on here and elsewhere? If other current shareholders buy the other bulk of those shares, will there be same criticism of them buying them, rather than putting their cash directly into the club? Or is that criticism only reserved for C1872 and the ordinary Rangers supporter?

 

[Northampton_Loyalist]

Was it voted on? I'm not sure it was since it was all a bit cloak and dagger. I cant recall, though my memory is telling me the first we knew of this was when it was announced that as part of one of the many 'deals' to get shot of Ashley half his shares had been sold to Club 1872 and the other half to Julian Wolhardt. Seems such a long time ago though.

I was not sure. I initially said no, it had not, then changed it. I cannot remember tbh but another poster suggested it had been voted on.

 

[ahalfallover]

Surley fan representation at board level is s good thing and something FF( especially the fanzine) has been calling out for since the 90’s

Yes but without ego's and agendas......so again time will tell

 

[Valley Bluenose]

I was not sure. I initially said no, it had not, then changed it. I cannot remember tbh but another poster suggested it had been voted on.

I'm virtually certain the purchase of the MASH shares by Club 1872 and Wolhardt came as a well-celebrated bolt-out-of-the-blue mate. There was a vote a year later with regard to purchasing a further £500k of shares but not for the MASH purchase.

 

[Arminius]

Reading the posts on this thread it would appear that many, maybe even the majority, don’t want fan involvement at Board level, or even a Club that is run on a sustainable basis. What they want is somebody else to keep throwing money at it. That cannot, and will not, go on forever.

Ive had time to think this through overnight and my initial slightly negative reaction is actually subsiding a little now.

As you correctly point out, the alternative to a strong fan ownership element in our club is relying on a sugar daddy. That hasn’t gone so well for us before.

The finance issue is really about running the club’s business sustainably, which comes from the usual sources of match day attendances, advertising, hospitality, prize money, merchandising, TV money and player sales.

That last item has a huge part to play in the near future.

If we don’t get the basic sustainability of the club right, and constantly have to get the begging bowl out from willing wealthy fan investors, you just know that that plan will eventually come a cropper.

As far as new investment coming into the club is concerned, I now see that major fan investors will still possibly be inclined to make investments, simply because they want to be involved with the club they love, but the role of a strong fan element of ownership would surely be to scrutinise any possible investors to make sure they had the interests of the club at heart.

So, maybe wouldn’t be a bad thing to have a much larger fan owned element to our affairs.

Still leaves the enormous challenge of gathering the £13m to clear, nonetheless.

 

[LJ50]

What the first people SHOULD have known about this was;

'David King has agreed a private transfer of his shareholding to C1872 for a set price. Does the membership wish to put in place plans to make it happen?'

Not

'David King has agreed a private transfer of his shareholding to C1872 for a set price. How would you like to pay, before even knowing how it is going to be administered?'

Honestly mate, I think that's a little bit of semantics.

I share your irritation about the paucity of information on the proposed mechanics and how C1872 is going to reorganise itself to function as a much bigger entity; and I won't be switching subscriptions if and until those details have been provided. But that is essentially my vote on "does the membership with to put in place plans to make it happen". I don't view it is as simply "how would you like to pay" because I'm not obligated to pay anything.

 

[mart22]

I applaud Dave King for this strategy but have a few doubts about it. Firstly, why now? Given that it'll take 3 years to transition why not wait till CL qualification, league won etc?
Secondly, going by our accounts the majority of major shareholders provided interest free loans over the last financial year, consequently taken as shares in subsequent issues. Club 1872 representing 20,000 would probably not be able to do this this potentially depriving the club of a much needed source of income.
Would this have a detrimental long term effect?

Director loans was never intended to be forever. The structured loss was carefully planned, and intended to make Rangers competitive while the club worked towards becoming self sustaining.
Buying DK's shares doesn't prevent Club 1872 loaning the club money. As a large shareholder Club 1872, with its members, can become a major source of finance.

 

[HillsBill]

Don't get me wrong, I have been a member of Club 1872 since it began and was a member of Rangers First before that. I pay £280 a year into C1872 and have done so for years. So, those of you who won't like what I'm about to say, can you please remember, I am saying this as a "member", because I believe in the concept and want it to work.

After the shenanigans of the early part of this decade, the evolution of Club 1872 was quite remarkable and it played an important role in freeing us from the manacles of Green, Easdale et al. Thereafter, it was overtaken by events, not to mention apparent internal friction, and has in very recent years become a bit player around the club.

Acquiring Dave King's shares is a very ambitious target and one I support wholeheartedly. I love the idea but it will have to raise its game by quite some distance to be able to firstly acquire and then manage effectively the size of investment involved. Owning 25% of Rangers, worth over £16m at cost price, brings significant responsibilities and I'm not sure that the current structure is capable of doing that. Do I want it to? Most definitely yes. But as a current contributor I have major doubts it can succeed as it is currently set up.

My prime concern about Club 1872 is the lack of communication with its members. The last Board minutes on the website are dated September, 2018. The last member's update is dated October 2017 and I can see no information on the C1872 website relating to the accounts of the company. In fact, I had to go rummaging in Companies House to find sets of accounts. I have no idea how many members there are or how much money they currently hold to be used as part of the share purchase. And I have contributed over £1,000. It is because I believe that I'm still paying but I'm taking an awful lot on trust.

Added to that, it started with 6 directors, if I'm not mistaken, and it now has 3. Not enough in my opinion to raise and manage the amount of money involved. There is little point in starting to raise the money without first telling members and potential members what their plans are and how they expect to deliver those plans. You raise subscription-type money in 2 ways - you get new members to contribute and you get existing members to contribute more.....but you need to keep them informed.

 

[frankieboy]

Press Release - 1st December 2020
Club 1872 can today announce that former Rangers Chairman, Dave King has agreed to sell his entire shareholding in Rangers International Football Club (RIFC) Plc to Club 1872. The sale, when complete, will make Club 1872 the largest, single shareholder in RIFC Plc.
The structure of the deal gives Club 1872 three years to complete the purchase - with the opportunity to purchase the entire shareholding prior to December 2021 for a price of 20p per share which is below Dave’s cost. Club 1872 will aim to create over 20,000 legacy members of the organisation, each of whom will retain a lifetime vote on the shares held in RIFC.
It has also been agreed with the RIFC Board that both Club 1872 and Dave King will have the right to participate in any impending share issue of RIFC. This means that, should Rangers require it, they will continue to be supported by Club 1872 contributors’ donations to Club 1872 for the term of the agreement and that the combined shareholding need not be diluted as long as Club 1872 has funds available to participate.
Dave King said,
“During regime change and throughout my Chairmanship I have advocated for increased supporter influence at the shareholder level and I provided opportunities for Club 1872 to participate in every share issue that was undertaken. I did this partly to express my appreciation to those supporters and supporter groups who actively assisted me in securing regime change and partly to ensure that all supporters (whether shareholders or not) retain an influential voice in directing the affairs of their Club. It is my sincere hope that “Never Again” will supporters become as disconnected and disempowered as they were at the time of my re-engagement with the Club over 6 years ago.
After completion of my service as Chairman I took time to consider how I can create a final legacy by giving supporters - including future generations - substantial shareholder influence for the first time in the almost 150 years history of our Club. The time to launch a “Never Again” campaign is now.
I made it repeatedly clear that I reinvested in the Club somewhat reluctantly and only because without my support it was proving impossible for local Scottish supporters to martial sufficient financial resources to save Rangers from the impending doom that was unavoidable at that time. In addition I committed to investing further and doing whatever else it took (e.g. getting rid

of Sports Direct/Mike Ashley) to see Rangers competing for Scottish titles and in Europe. That is firmly the case now.
As I look forward I must recognise that my family is based in South Africa and I cannot be certain as to what approach they would take to owning shares in the Club when I can no longer influence this. After considering the possible options I concluded that the only meaningful way I could deliver enduring supporter influence in my absence would be to allow supporters - via Club 1872 - to increase their influence at shareholder level by acquiring my shares over a period of time that is considered to be achievable by Club 1872.
I do not intend to profit from my efforts over the last 6 years to save our Club, even though the Club is now substantially more valuable partly through my efforts. I am happy that supporters get this increased value as without them we would not have achieved the full recovery that was completed with the recent fund raise.
I have agreed therefore to transfer my shares to Club 1872 at my historical cash cost of acquisition (which includes professional fees) and to allow Club 1872 a period of three years to build up the supporter backing that will be necessary to achieve this. My all-in cost is 23.7p per share and I am willing to put a pricing structure in place that accommodates 20p as the initial price to be consistent with the present share issue and, at Club 1872’s request, I have included an option for Club 1872 to buy all of the shares at 20p which would result in a loss to me. In my view the shares are presently worth in excess of 50p if properly valued.
I have coined the term “Never Again" as I truly believe that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to make supporters - in perpetuity- the number one shareholder in the Club. Fortunately, the present Board supported me in my vision to see an increased shareholder influence for our fans but we cannot be sure of the fondness for this by future directors. The time to achieve this is therefore now.
Through my engagement with Club 1872 and its present board members (who are all dedicated volunteers) I have developed great trust in the individuals and the organisation. I have personally witnessed the strong benefit to the Club of having a collective voice for supporters at the shareholder level. It has been beneficial to have in Club 1872 a supporter group that is willing to challenge the Club when it feels necessary to do so and is also willing to support the Board when key resolutions that protect the Club need to be passed. Club 1872 did that extremely well during my period as Chairman to the extent that I have

absolute confidence that Club 1872 is the right vehicle for me to work with to advance supporter shareholder ownership - both now and in the future.
I would urge Rangers supporters to join Club 1872 today and ensure that the events of 2012 can “Never Again” be repeated."
Club 1872 Director, Laura Fawkes said,
“This is a huge moment for both Club 1872 and the Rangers support. We are very grateful to Dave King for his faith in Club 1872 and the Club 1872 Board and for his ongoing commitment to ensuring that the ownership structure of Rangers remains a very healthy mix of wealthy individuals and the wider supporter base.
As Club 1872 Directors, we are very proud to present this opportunity to the Rangers support. We now need over 20,000 Rangers supporters to take up the baton, join Club 1872 and ensure that the events of 2012 can never happen again. It would be a seminal moment for both Rangers Football Club and the supporters if we could achieve the position of being the largest shareholder in Rangers in time for the 150th anniversary of the club in 2022.
The rebuilding of the Club, largely overseen by the Rangers Board under Dave King’s Chairmanship, has been remarkable - from the position in 2012 to once again challenging for domestic titles and in European competition. Club 1872 can continue to assist with that process whilst ensuring that the wellbeing of the club remains at the centre of decision making in the longer term.
We fully understand the financial pressures that supporters are under in the current economic climate, and the huge contribution they have already made to Rangers this season through season ticket sales and merchandise. But, if they can dig deep one more time and join Club 1872 today as legacy members, then over the next couple of years we can together ensure that the club will remain in safe hands for generations to come."

I did put another thread up for this question but it’s disappeared,
How do we pay for this?

 

[LJ50]

I did put another thread up for this question but it’s disappeared,
How do we pay for this?

if you are already a member, you will have received an email this morning that explains it.

 

[Haining84]

Put it this way, if that is their view......then right away they are not going to be in favour with alot of Rangers supporters.

also I do remember another issue when they first started they ditched the RSC section that they had planned during their creation.

so as you can see, am edgy

If you’ve seriously got beef over ‘orange songs’ you need to get a grip mate.

 

[High Society]

Is what i was meaning. You would agree with me in saying that as things stand, C1872 has a huge number of things to get in place before asking for £13 million in cash from the support.

What we need is the current Board of C1872 to realise they cannot achieve this objective with only 3 Directors.
They need to organise an Election and allow candidates to submit full CV’s to ensure we get a properly qualified Board to take C1872 forward.
It’s being going backwards steadily for the past 5 years and simply cannot suddenly change gears.
This is a big moment for us, as a support, to buy shares and work with Douglas Park and the Board for the future of RFC.