Club 1872 statement

Yes.

His preferred option may be to sell to C1872 over a 3 year period. That option may well come against another interested party looking to buy his shares sooner. It's entirely possible that King is looking for assurances that C1872 are able to commit to the preferred 3 year transition period whilst he considers an alternative offer from somebody who would want a deal done now.

May well be a situation where King will sell to another party in the near future if C1872 can't provide the appropriate assurances that would see him reject another offer and go ahead with the 3 year transition.
It is a possibility, however it is extremely unlikely. If King is willing to wait 3 years for his money, at a significant discount, he is unlikely to be rushed into an alternative if this one is not accepted. He has, after-all, 3 years to find another buyer and get his money in the same time frame.

Not impossible at all, just very unlikely.
 
It is a possibility, however it is extremely unlikely. If King is willing to wait 3 years for his money, at a significant discount, he is unlikely to be rushed into an alternative if this one is not accepted. He has, after-all, 3 years to find another buyer and get his money in the same time frame.

Not impossible at all, just very unlikely.

If his preference is to sell to the fans, what do you think will happen to the share price if we attain Champions League qualification next season? or if we hit a point of financial stability (which I think we are on track to within the next 18 months, even without Champions League income)

It would rise to a point that selling at 20p a share would look like complete insanity, the price that would be "fair" would be way out of the reach of c1872 and the only option would be selling to a private investor.

So c1872 have a short period of time to get it together and purchase the shares in tranches for a discount, purchase the whole lot at the end of the three years for the amount or if they can't purchase some/all shares for whatever reason then what remains will be sold at the higher share price.

I think that's the reason why, this might be the last point at which a feasible and reasonable deal could be made.
 
If his preference is to sell to the fans, what do you think will happen to the share price if we attain Champions League qualification next season? or if we hit a point of financial stability (which I think we are on track to within the next 18 months, even without Champions League income)

It would rise to a point that selling at 20p a share would look like complete insanity, the price that would be "fair" would be way out of the reach of c1872 and the only option would be selling to a private investor.

So c1872 have a short period of time to get it together and purchase the shares in tranches for a discount, purchase the whole lot at the end of the three years for the amount or if they can't purchase some/all shares for whatever reason then what remains will be sold at the higher share price.

I think that's the reason why, this might be the last point at which a feasible and reasonable deal could be made.
I think that it is pretty obvious that King is willing and happy to accept 20p per share today fully in the knowledge that his value could be significantly increased by holding on. hell, he is already accepting way below market value.

I think it does him a massive disservice to suggest that he would demand more if the value increased. He certainly would not be forced by anyone to sell for more if he so chose.


Why are people diving so deep down into this?


The C1872 board have unilaterally decided on a course of action. That course of action should be for the membership to decide, not the board. it should only be decided upon once due diligence on the deal has been carried out, once a proper plan has been crafted and agreed upon and when that plan is in a format that can be easily accessed and understood by the people that are targeted by it.

Anything else is suicide and doomed to an ignominious failure.
 
From the C1872 articles of association;


DIRECTORS DIRECTORS’ POWERS AND RESPONSIBILITIES 8. Directors’ general authority and Key Decisions Subject to the Articles, the Directors are responsible for the management of the Company’s business, for which purpose they may exercise all the powers of the Company but they shall do so subject to the requirement that on any Key Decision they shall first host a vote of the Donating Members and shall exercise their powers to give effect to the vote of the majority of Donating Members who cast votes on that Key Decision.


I challenge anyone, absolutely anyone at all, to tell me that agreeing to a purchase of £13 million of shares is not a key decision.
When you make your monthly donation you say if you want it to be for share purchases or not, when you money is being specifically donated to purchase shares I dont think they need to have a vote on doing so.
 
When you make your monthly donation you say if you want it to be for share purchases or not, when you money is being specifically donated to purchase shares I dont think they need to have a vote on doing so.
See post 949 where C1872 themselves decided that they needed to hold a poll to agree the purchase of 2.5 million shares from the club itself, rather than 66 million from an individual.
 
See post 949 where C1872 themselves decided that they needed to hold a poll to agree the purchase of 2.5 million shares from the club itself, rather than 66 million from an individual.
The reason a poll was required in that instance was because they were asking to use donations that were NOT donated for share purchases, thats why it was needed.


Members have overwhelmingly authorised the use of funds from Club 1872 Projects CIC to purchase a portion of these shares
 
I think that it is pretty obvious that King is willing and happy to accept 20p per share today fully in the knowledge that his value could be significantly increased by holding on. hell, he is already accepting way below market value.

I think it does him a massive disservice to suggest that he would demand more if the value increased. He certainly would not be forced by anyone to sell for more if he so chose.


Why are people diving so deep down into this?


The C1872 board have unilaterally decided on a course of action. That course of action should be for the membership to decide, not the board. it should only be decided upon once due diligence on the deal has been carried out, once a proper plan has been crafted and agreed upon and when that plan is in a format that can be easily accessed and understood by the people that are targeted by it.

Anything else is suicide and doomed to an ignominious failure.

He might be willing to accept 20p per share if the fans can commit to it. If C1872 can't then he isnt going to turn down 21p a share from a buyer who can.

Thats the issue here. Can C1872 commit to Dave King's preferred deal? That could well be dictating a lot of what C1872 are doing right now. Its not the way I'd do it. Based on some of the things I've been involved in at a lower league level then there are definitely some things that I can appreciate and understand regarding C1872's actions. It really comes down to the willingness of the Gers support to consider fan ownership in some capacity. You can convince a sceptic. Scepticism is entirely healthy and people should be asking important questions. You'll never convince a cynic and my worry would be that as far as fan ownership/representation is concerned, we're dealing with a cynical support who simply won't listen to rational argument. It's not ideal that C1872 seem to have skipped the rational argument bit. It'll damage their cause without a doubt. Certainly could be understandable reasons for it though.
 
The reason a poll was required in that instance was because they were asking to use donations that were NOT donated for share purchases, thats why it was needed.


Members have overwhelmingly authorised the use of funds from Club 1872 Projects CIC to purchase a portion of these shares
..but was within the bounds of what the club was set up for.


One thing that is absolutely painfully obvious is that even if they were, just, within their articles of association, it was a damned silly thing to do when you want this amount of investment.
 
The club converted £5.75m worth of loans to shares during the last accounting period.
Also, Dave King's loans attached interest of 8%- hardly a favourable rate.
I remain cautious about this as it may take a much-needed funding stream away.
Based on our hypothetical discussion Club 1872 wouldn't convert large loans into equity to avoid increasing their 25% shares beyond the point where a mandatory offer becomes necessary.
Shareholder loan interests rates are agreed between the parties. If Club 1872 want to offer a favourable rate they can.
 
They're doing things in the wrong order. That may be partly dictated by their discussion with Dave King. There may well be a need for urgency from King's side. The information vacuum isnt doing them any favours. It puts an already sceptical fanbase on edge. The absolute best thing that they could do is pause. Hit the pause button right now. Put together their proposal in a proper format. Make it available to members to scrutinise. Make it available to the wider support to try and encourage buy-in. Use the time between no and the end of January to get their pitch right and to build the case for buying King's shareholding. Have the vote in January and then start implementing if thats what the membership vote for.

I'm not really criticising them for their ambition to make this work or that they've got a bit ahead of themselves in the process I'd want to see them follow. There could well be a reason that they appear to be jumping the gun a little. I'd just advise them to step back, review things with a more critical eye and perhaps think a bit about how they're going to get a sceptical fanbase on board. The big danger is that if they get it wrong now then they're going to set their aims back a significant distance because they'll lose more of their membership.

It's time for cool heads and critical thinking. At the very minimum I'd be suggesting that C1872 start talking to SFSA and Paul Goodwin. I know he's not popular on here but he's been through fan buy-outs and could at least offer some informed advice. He's a genuine football guy. I'd also be suggesting speaking with the Foundation of Hearts guys, the Well Society people and even the Hamburg membership folk.
Paul Goodwin is a hater and a self publicist. We don’t need any help from people like him
 
Paul Goodwin is a hater and a self publicist. We don’t need any help from people like him

He also has direct experience of helping supporters trusts put together a plan for fan ownership.

You don't need to like him as a person. It would be foolish to ignore his relevant experience.
 
C1872 have their issue. Of that they’re are no doubts, and I’m certain that it’s something they’ll now need to govern properly with the appropriately qualified personnel.

However there’s a few jealous posters outing themselves on here over what c1872 are closely aiming to achieve. Maybe it’s a throwback to the divisive days of RST, RSA, Rangers First etc.

Or Follow Follow vs Rangers Media.

United we stand, divided we fall....

Accusing people of jealousy for raising legitimate concerns is only going to get people's backs up. I hope that C1872's pitch will be more conciliatory - amongst other things - than the likes of this.
 
I have to say I’m undecided on this , I’m a member due to being in the RST but have very little faith in the Current organisation.
 
But he is not doing that he is selling them, which he has every right to do

There is no point wishing for something that is not happening, the reality is we need to deal with what is in front of us.
Exactly. Why should people tell somebody who has invested millions to just give away another £13m. Nobody should be grudging him getting some money back whether they take part or not.
 
Exactly, and at the risk of becoming boring, it makes an absolute mockery of the fact they are already taking money from folk that you and I cannot easily answer this question.


We are in absolute direct agreement mate :D Only a few wee semantic bits thrown in to keep it interesting.

The obvious answer is they will generate what they can from fans, borrow what they can from financial institutions and buy all the shares they can.

What they can't buy they won't.
 
No idea - I'd be surprised if they weren't though.

After all this is the whole point of C1872.
Who would sign the agreement? Who would be liable in case of default? Have the membership been asked about putting C1872 into debt?


I would be utterly amazed if anyone at C1872 was involved in trying to secure finance, or even felt they were able to.
 
Who would sign the agreement? Who would be liable in case of default? Have the membership been asked about putting C1872 into debt?


I would be utterly amazed if anyone at C1872 was involved in trying to secure finance, or even felt they were able to.

Really easy to address.

Fan money held in an escrow account on trust. Transferred to King at the end of each year for a percentage of the shares or held over the course of the 3 years and transferred to King at the end of year 3 for all of his shares.

Target not met? Escrow funds returned to members. Or a vote taken to donate to the club.

If it's being financed to allow a purchase from King on day 1 and to be repaid to the financer over the following 3 years? Straight up vote from c1872 members to either accept or reject the proposal.

Would also be dependent on the legal status of c1872. What are they? Supporters trusts were typically set up as mutual and provident societies. Most club ownership vehicles ultimately transition to community interest companies.
 
Really easy to address.

Fan money held in an escrow account on trust. Transferred to King at the end of each year for a percentage of the shares or held over the course of the 3 years and transferred to King at the end of year 3 for all of his shares.

Target not met? Escrow funds returned to members. Or a vote taken to donate to the club.

If it's being financed to allow a purchase from King on day 1 and to be repaid to the financer over the following 3 years? Straight up vote from c1872 members to either accept or reject the proposal.

Would also be dependent on the legal status of c1872. What are they? Supporters trusts were typically set up as mutual and provident societies. Most club ownership vehicles ultimately transition to community interest companies.
First 2 paragraphs, absolutely.

Second 2, no vote has occurred regarding finance, therefore, as said, nobody at all from C1872 is currently able to take out finance. As I said. Cheers for agreeing again. We are doing a lot of that tonight unintentionally.
 
Don’t know if I am missing something or not, but will it only be those who decide to become ‘legacy’ members who get a say in the future. A bit of a kick in the nuts to those of us who have put money and shares in in excess of £500/650 but will be left voiceless unless we can afford to put more in yet a new investor gets it all
 
First 2 paragraphs, absolutely.

Second 2, no vote has occurred regarding finance, therefore, as said, nobody at all from C1872 is currently able to take out finance. As I said. Cheers for agreeing again. We are doing a lot of that tonight unintentionally.

We really aren't.

C1872 haven't done any finance deals. They haven't explicitly stated that they'll find the king share purchase via 3rd party finance. Flights of fantasy are fun but right now they offer no solutions. If you want a practical real world example of how a fan buyout works when the fans group partners with a friendly investor then you need look no further than Motherwell FC and the way that the Well Society were eventually able to fund their club takeover.

Real world evidence of one option that C1872 could pursue. Might be an option for them. Might not be. What's needed right now is a clear proposal that can be put to fans to allow for informed decisions.
 
We really aren't.

C1872 haven't done any finance deals. They haven't explicitly stated that they'll find the king share purchase via 3rd party finance. Flights of fantasy are fun but right now they offer no solutions. If you want a practical real world example of how a fan buyout works when the fans group partners with a friendly investor then you need look no further than Motherwell FC and the way that the Well Society were eventually able to fund their club takeover.

Real world evidence of one option that C1872 could pursue. Might be an option for them. Might not be. What's needed right now is a clear proposal that can be put to fans to allow for informed decisions


What are you talking about? The other poster said that C1872 would be using finance to buy King's shares that were not covered by the uptake. I said that nobody at C1872 was taking out finance for anything. You then listed the reasons why we know that nobody at C1872 is currently taking out finance for anything. We agree. Again.


Stop playing the man.
 
What are you talking about? The other poster said that C1872 would be using finance to buy King's shares that were not covered by the uptake. I said that nobody at C1872 was taking out finance for anything. You then listed the reasons why we know that nobody at C1872 is currently taking out finance for anything. We agree. Again.


Stop playing the man.

You're the one making massive leaps and sowing the idea that c1872 are going to take on debt. Your stock answer is that nobody voted for c1872 to take on debt. You're addressing an issue that doesn't exist outside of your own posts.

It's the equivalent of 'nobody voted to be poorer' or 'nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition'.

Fans need clarity. Not even muddier waters.
 
You're the one making massive leaps and sowing the idea that c1872 are going to take on debt. Your stock answer is that nobody voted for c1872 to take on debt. You're addressing an issue that doesn't exist outside of your own posts.

It's the equivalent of 'nobody voted to be poorer' or 'nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition'.

Fans need clarity. Not even muddier waters.
No, I am not FFS. I am saying EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE TO THAT. Portadown_Bear suggested they would be looking to use finance, I told him they most certainly would not. Why the hell are you se determined to fight me over everything when we clearly, absolutely clearly, agree on EVERYTHING


Sorry to shout, but you just are not grasping this at all :D
 
No, I am not FFS. I am saying EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE TO THAT. Portadown_Bear suggested they would be looking to use finance, I told him they most certainly would not. Why the hell are you se determined to fight me over everything when we clearly, absolutely clearly, agree on EVERYTHING


Sorry to shout, but you just are not grasping this at all :D

You keep kite flying with wooly ideas about perpetual proxy voting and c1872 not being able to do something that they've never actually stayed that they want to do.

I'll keep focusing on what works in the real world.
 
You keep kite flying with wooly ideas about perpetual proxy voting and c1872 not being able to do something that they've never actually stayed that they want to do.

I'll keep focusing on what works in the real world.
Jesus wept. :D


Another poster said they wanted finance. We both agree that they do not, yet you manage to turn it into a fight with me?How exactly have you managed that?




You genuinely have a problem :D
 
Disappointing they won't invest that 13m into the club but rather pay Dave king the money.
Who ever he sold the shares to he would still get the money at least selling to club 1872 it stops the likes of Ashley and Co getting there grubby hands on our club. I would still like to see how it would work in reality as I don't want the Club to go backwards.
 
He also has direct experience of helping supporters trusts put together a plan for fan ownership.

You don't need to like him as a person. It would be foolish to ignore his relevant experience.
I'd rather Goodwin was not involved either.

Hes got previous with Rangers groups and not all of it good.

Not to be trusted.

Ask Mark ;)
 
next weeks Gersnet podcast has Dave King and Laura from C1872 on it I'd urge people to listen in to get a better idea of what's going on
 
I'd rather Goodwin was not involved either.

Hes got previous with Rangers groups and not all of it good.

Not to be trusted.

Ask Mark ;)

Goodwin is often brought in to front a fan bid when the trust making the offer has a lack of leadership. I absolutely wouldn't have him involved in that capacity.

Advising on the structure of a supporters trust, the practicalities of making a bid and what happens going forward when a fan group has a meaningful shareholding. He's been there and done it. He can provide an insight into what worked at other clubs and what didn't.

He's a source of information. Nothing more and nothing less. That information could help c1872 make better decisions about its own structure, how to prepare a bid, how to engage with fans and what happens if a bid is successful. Essentially he's a consultant with relevant experience in the field of fan takeovers.
 
Chris Jack's piece today:

THE message of 'never again' was key to Dave King six years ago. On Tuesday night, he emphasised it once more and ensured the words would be backed up by actions.

His decision to sell his major shareholding in Rangers to Club 1872 is his final parting gift to supporters. It will be King's legacy at Ibrox.

King's work rebuilding Rangers is done and now he has the chance to leave the club, his club, to those that will care about it most. Rangers will rest in the hands of the fans.

The cost to Club 1872 will be around £13million but the opportunity they now have is priceless. It is now or never, a once in a lifetime moment to preserve and protect their club for generations to come.

If King had wanted to cash in to the highest bidder, he would have been able to sell his 20.37 per cent stake for considerably more. Indeed, he believes the shares are currently worth around 50p each, which could see him recoup up to £33million if an alternative buyer was to be found at a higher level.

But his relationship with Club 1872 and his belief that supporters should have a key stake in RIFC plc is behind his decision to give the fan organisation the first chance to acquire his stake.
It will make Club 1872 - currently the sixth largest shareholders at Ibrox - by far and away the largest stakeholders in Rangers.

For comparison, chairman Douglas Park currently holds around 12 per cent of the shares, while long-term investor George Taylor has just under 10 per cent. Stuart Gibson, who invested £5million as part of a share issue earlier this year, has a seven per cent holding and the likes of Julian Wolhardt, John Bennett, Barry Scott and George Letham make up the remainder of the key money men at present.

The crucial number for Club 1872 here is 25. That is the percentage they have worked towards achieving since their formation and the purchase of King's 66 million shares will take them beyond that significant threshold.

That gives them the power to veto boardroom decisions and ultimately ensures Rangers will never again be owned by a single individual. If anyone fails to see the significance of that, then they have extremely short memories.

There will be those that rightly say they have full trust in the current Rangers board and complete faith that they will always do right by the club given their financial and emotional investments. Their generosity and their feeling for Rangers cannot be questioned and those that continue to fund their club deserve enormous gratitude from their fellow supporters.

But the Ibrox crowd cannot be complacent and it would be reckless to not make the most of the opportunity that King has given them and secure the long-term future of Rangers.

The intentions of those that make the decisions and that sign the cheques are not in doubt, but this deal is about life after this current regime and Rangers fans know better than most that nothing stays the same forever.

With 25 per cent of the shares under the control of Club 1872, the heartache of 2012 cannot be repeated. There can be no Craig Whyte like figure, no one-man wrecking ball at Ibrox.

If that is not a reason to complete this deal, then what is?

King has now made the dream a reality. Think back to the dark days of 2012, to the times where fans were fearing for the very existence of their club, their institution, rather than thinking of European runs and title wins.

In 1996, there were few dissenting voices towards Sir David Murray. Come 2006, his stewardship was under serious scrutiny and by 2016 his reputation was in tatters.

Things change in football and in business but Rangers fans must always be the one constant.
Increasing their influence is no condemnation on those at Ibrox. Instead, it is confirmation of the supporters' loyalty to Rangers and a chance to secure it for the next generation of fans.

Rangers must become self-sustaining financially and the need for external investment has to lessen in the coming years. Rather than benefactors plugging gaps, revenues will continue to rise and prize money and player trading will become more significant parts of the business model for Rangers.
This arrangement is not about fan ownership, it is about fan influence. Given everything that they have gone through and everything they have done for their club, it is only right that the Rangers support have their voice heard and this deal, with a boardroom seat surely set to follow, provides them that opportunity going forward.

King's shareholding gave him a degree of power and leverage whilst he was chairman, but he didn't singlehandedly run Rangers and that is not what Club 1872 will do either.

This isn't a novelty scheme where punters pick the colour of the strips and decide who the new manager is going to be.

Football decisions will be made by the football department and business decisions made by the executive team. For once, though, the fans can have a seat round the boardroom table rather than be left pointlessly peering in from the outside.

The bill of £13million is significant and only time will tell if it is achievable. New 'legacy' memberships have been launched as fans are asked to donate £500 either as a one-off or via monthly payments and King's shares will be sold off in tranches over the next three years.
With around 20,000 members required, it is a big ask for Club 1872 to treble their support and raise the funds. But it is now or never and the backing of King stands as a vote of confidence in the organisation and fan base.

Dave King helped save Rangers. Now is the time for fans to protect Rangers.
 
The in-fighting's already underway.

And for the life of me I can't see Club 1872 coming up with £13m.

Not entirely sure what Dave King's up to here, but his timing's way off!
 
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