Dave Kings back up plan if Club 1872 cant pull it off

usbear

Well-Known Member
If I understand it right.

20,000 fans

650 quid a head

I don’t think it’s impossible to achieve.

I’m convinced there a lot of bears out there quite happy to put the money in but nervous about ultimately who it is that sits on the board.

In other words who amongst us has the fortitude, business experience, stamina and forsight equivalent to or better than Dave King.

What will King do if this fails. Will he remain the dominant shareholder or will he offer them to someone else.

He’d be well within in his rights to after all he’s done for the club and considering he offered them to the fans first.

It’s a tad unsettling to me.
 
If I understand it right.

20,000 fans

650 quid a head

I don’t think it’s impossible to achieve.

I’m convinced there a lot of bears out there quite happy to put the money in but nervous about ultimately who it is that sits on the board.

In other words who amongst us has the fortitude, business experience, stamina and forsight equivalent to or better than Dave King.

What will King do if this fails. Will he remain the dominant shareholder or will he offer them to someone else.

He’d be well within in his rights to after all he’s done for the club and considering he offered them to the fans first.

It’s a tad unsettling to me.
Presumably c1872 would buy up as much as possible? Then he might be left with small shareholding.
 
I'm going on the basis he wants to sell all his shares and the reason for that only he can answer. Covid has hit us all in different ways, it could be financial, or maybe he wants to rein in his commitments financial and otherwise and concentrate on his businesses and / or family.

Assuming he wants to sell all his shares I would imagine club 1872 would purchase as much as possible, thus achieving what both he and they want - an increased fans groups shareholding.
From there King would: sell to existing shareholders or new shareholders.
Alternatively, let's say Club 1872 purchase say 50% of his shares, he may wish to retain the other 50% as his initial goal of stepping down would be achieved to some extent.

Whatever the result, so long as his continued "Club at heart" drives his decision making, I have no real issue with it. The man has done so much for us on and off the park and if he wishes to step down then that is his prerogative and taking out what he put in I have no issue with either. It's his cash and he did what very few of us could financially, he also took a lot of extra work on fighting Ashley and the spivs along the way amongst other projects he has overseen the launch of.
 
Fans need 25+1% to have the power to prevent 2012 happening again. That’s what we all(certainly most) wanted back then. We’ve all seen what somebody like Ashley can do even with a fairly small percentage, so we need to try to get to the 25+% or we’re still open to another disaster in the future. Does that have to come with somebody on the board? I know it’ll be demanded by a lot of people but would it be the best thing for moving the club forward?

I just don’t see us being harmonious with having that amount. We’ve seen in the past that a lot of people just want a statement every time they read a negative article. There would’ve been a campaign for a statement because nippy mentioned us this week, no doubt about it. It would become a massive distraction and cause splits in the board imo.

Ensuring the future of the club should come before anything else, but are we going to safeguard the club but at the same time harm our chances of success.
 
Mr King should offer the fans, season ticket holders, Mygers members and supporters clubs members for instance, then 'the fans' have a large stake in the club and can vote with whoever they feel is best for the club.
I would happily buy more shares but personally would not go in with Club 72 or any other large fan based group, too much in fighting happens in similar groups as far as I have seen.
Only my opinion of course
 
Fans need 25+1% to have the power to prevent 2012 happening again. That’s what we all(certainly most) wanted back then. We’ve all seen what somebody like Ashley can do even with a fairly small percentage, so we need to try to get to the 25+% or we’re still open to another disaster in the future. Does that have to come with somebody on the board? I know it’ll be demanded by a lot of people but would it be the best thing for moving the club forward?

I just don’t see us being harmonious with having that amount. We’ve seen in the past that a lot of people just want a statement every time they read a negative article. There would’ve been a campaign for a statement because nippy mentioned us this week, no doubt about it. It would become a massive distraction and cause splits in the board imo.

Ensuring the future of the club should come before anything else, but are we going to safeguard the club but at the same time harm our chances of success.
Couple of interesting points from the Club 1872 FAQ on this matter:

Will Club 1872 be involved in the day to day running of Rangers?

No. Club 1872 is a major shareholder but is not directly involved in the day to day running of the club. With a large shareholding, Club 1872 will be in a position to scrutinise the decisions made by the Executives and the Board of Rangers and work with them to grow and develop the club whilst representing the views and concerns of our members. As we grow our shareholding we will also, in line with the wishes of our members, seek formal representation on the Rangers Board. It will remain the job of the Executive Team to run Rangers on a day to day basis and make operational decisions.

How would Club 1872 be represented on the Rangers board?

As we build our shareholding and grow our membership through legacy donations, Club 1872 will re-enter discussions with Rangers about representation on the RIFC Board. It is important to stress that it will not be Club 1872 Directors who take up an RIFC Board position. The Directors will identify candidates who can not only represent Club 1872 but also make an important contribution to the RIFC board through their expertise and experience. The chosen candidate will then represent the organisation’s shareholding on the board and ensure that the views of Club 1872 members are represented at all times. This will not change the way Rangers Football Club is run on a day to day basis. Club 1872 would not be involved in day to day decision making at Rangers, but rather would retain oversight of that process through regular interaction with the Rangers Board and Executive Team
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Couple of interesting points from the Club 1872 FAQ on this matter:

Will Club 1872 be involved in the day to day running of Rangers?

No. Club 1872 is a major shareholder but is not directly involved in the day to day running of the club. With a large shareholding, Club 1872 will be in a position to scrutinise the decisions made by the Executives and the Board of Rangers and work with them to grow and develop the club whilst representing the views and concerns of our members. As we grow our shareholding we will also, in line with the wishes of our members, seek formal representation on the Rangers Board. It will remain the job of the Executive Team to run Rangers on a day to day basis and make operational decisions.

How would Club 1872 be represented on the Rangers board?

As we build our shareholding and grow our membership through legacy donations, Club 1872 will re-enter discussions with Rangers about representation on the RIFC Board. It is important to stress that it will not be Club 1872 Directors who take up an RIFC Board position. The Directors will identify candidates who can not only represent Club 1872 but also make an important contribution to the RIFC board through their expertise and experience. The chosen candidate will then represent the organisation’s shareholding on the board and ensure that the views of Club 1872 members are represented at all times. This will not change the way Rangers Football Club is run on a day to day basis. Club 1872 would not be involved in day to day decision making at Rangers, but rather would retain oversight of that process through regular interaction with the Rangers Board and Executive Team
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Thanks mate. That actually answers my main concerns with the day to day stuff. I must’ve skimmed over that. There will still be infighting and a lot of pressure put onto any rep on the board but that sounds good to me. If club1872 can get its act together I think I’m leaning towards being all for this. Safeguarding the club has to be the main focus.
 
Thanks mate. That actually answers my main concerns with the day to day stuff. I must’ve skimmed over that. There will still be infighting and a lot of pressure put onto any rep on the board but that sounds good to me. If club1872 can get its act together I think I’m leaning towards being all for this. Safeguarding the club has to be the main focus.
Given what’s said in there, the Club 1872 rep on the Board could easily be the likes of Paul Murray, Walter Smith or even Dave King. If Club 1872 want to push this Legacy thing properly then they need to make that clear - and also get some figureheads on board with them - Gough? McCoist? - to mount the media campaign
 
If I understand it right.

20,000 fans

650 quid a head

I don’t think it’s impossible to achieve.

I’m convinced there a lot of bears out there quite happy to put the money in but nervous about ultimately who it is that sits on the board.

In other words who amongst us has the fortitude, business experience, stamina and forsight equivalent to or better than Dave King.

What will King do if this fails. Will he remain the dominant shareholder or will he offer them to someone else.

He’d be well within in his rights to after all he’s done for the club and considering he offered them to the fans first.

It’s a tad unsettling to me.
Let's be clear here, he has not offered his shares to the fans, he has offered them to Club 1872.
Supporters have had no direct access to shares since the good guys took over.
I have suggested on the other thread that the purchase of a season ticket would also allow the buyer to purchase DKs shares to the same value.
Or the club could put an optional £100 onto the price of ST, and include £100 worth of DKs shares.
45000 x 100 x 3 = £13.5m in 3 years time.
The idea that 1000s fans are likely to donate £500(eg) to Club1872 is risible, it is not going to happen.
It appears that only Club 1872 can be trusted with share ownership.
 
If I understand it right.

20,000 fans

650 quid a head

I don’t think it’s impossible to achieve.

I’m convinced there a lot of bears out there quite happy to put the money in but nervous about ultimately who it is that sits on the board.

In other words who amongst us has the fortitude, business experience, stamina and forsight equivalent to or better than Dave King.

What will King do if this fails. Will he remain the dominant shareholder or will he offer them to someone else.

He’d be well within in his rights to after all he’s done for the club and considering he offered them to the fans first.

It’s a tad unsettling to me.
Given that he is giving club 1872 3 years to buy the shares, it doesn't look like he is cutting, and running from the club.
He has put millions of his own money into our club, and saved us from unscrupulous bar stewards. I for one am extremely grateful, but it looks like his family don't have the same enthusiasm for the club as he does.
I think this is his way of making sure his legacy to the club remains with the club via the supporters. If we can't or don't take up his offer of buying his shares at a loss to him, then he would be entitled to put his shares on the open market.
That scenario doesn't bear thinking about, how about another fat man buying his shares, and shafting us like the last one.
 
Given what’s said in there, the Club 1872 rep on the Board could easily be the likes of Paul Murray, Walter Smith or even Dave King. If Club 1872 want to push this Legacy thing properly then they need to make that clear - and also get some figureheads on board with them - Gough? McCoist? - to mount the media campaign
That sounds very good. I’m sure plenty of prominent fans will get on board with this. As long as the campaign is run properly, I can see this working. I’m sure DK will be advising along the way too. You won me over VB.
 
Mr King should offer the fans, season ticket holders, Mygers members and supporters clubs members for instance, then 'the fans' have a large stake in the club and can vote with whoever they feel is best for the club.
I would happily buy more shares but personally would not go in with Club 72 or any other large fan based group, too much in fighting happens in similar groups as far as I have seen.
Only my opinion of course

The problem with that model was that it wasn't enough to block the likes of Whyte getting his mits on the club.

People are going to have to get past the "there's too much infighting" thing.

Generally it comes from a few loud voices intent on causing trouble (Alan Harris etc) . The good guys should be backed and not just see people throw their hand up in the air and slink off because of it all.

"you're either with us or against us"

Coupled with that though, C1872 need to move to being a far more organised and structured business set up. The work a few people involved do just now is great and they're giving up their own time. However, when the sums being talked about become the focus, we need actual business type people involved.

Wonder what Paul Murray is doing these days...
 
this is going to get very complicated very quickly - compounded by disinformation, speculation, conjecture, spite, mis-trust, jealousy, back-stabbing and allegations of blazer-chasing. And that’s before anything has even happened.

we’ve got significant numbers of amongst our support who can’t figure out what our SLO’s role is, far less cope with the intricacies of fan representation via a supporters group.

and I don’t say that as someone who has any sort of axe to grind or agenda to push - simply an observation based on over 4 decades of supporting our great Club
 
Let's be clear here, he has not offered his shares to the fans, he has offered them to Club 1872.
Supporters have had no direct access to shares since the good guys took over.
I have suggested on the other thread that the purchase of a season ticket would also allow the buyer to purchase DKs shares to the same value.
Or the club could put an optional £100 onto the price of ST, and include £100 worth of DKs shares.
45000 x 100 x 3 = £13.5m in 3 years time.
The idea that 1000s fans are likely to donate £500(eg) to Club1872 is risible, it is not going to happen.
It appears that only Club 1872 can be trusted with share ownership.
They are different thanks for pointing that out.
 
Let's be clear here, he has not offered his shares to the fans, he has offered them to Club 1872.
Supporters have had no direct access to shares since the good guys took over.
I have suggested on the other thread that the purchase of a season ticket would also allow the buyer to purchase DKs shares to the same value.
Or the club could put an optional £100 onto the price of ST, and include £100 worth of DKs shares.
45000 x 100 x 3 = £13.5m in 3 years time.
The idea that 1000s fans are likely to donate £500(eg) to Club1872 is risible, it is not going to happen.
It appears that only Club 1872 can be trusted with share ownership.
It would also appear that C1872 are the only vehicle for us to be the major shareholder as fans. The sale isn't to make him money because clearly he'll lose money, he doesn't entrust his own family and if you look back at what Murray, Whyte, Green, Ashley done to us at EVERY point we could scrutinise and block every devious move at every turn
 
The bottom line is if we don’t want another Whyte/Green type takeover then we the supporters run club 1872 as the majority shareholder can stop it it’s a no brainier for me don’t quite understand some of the made up nonsense going on.I for one don’t want to go through any of that again this is the safeguard against it ratified by the man Dave King who with his business acumen and love of our club saved us from the spivs outwitted fat boy et all and got us back on the road to where we belong.I for one listen to what Dave King says more than some of the naysayers on here.
 
It would also appear that C1872 are the only vehicle for us to be the major shareholder as fans. The sale isn't to make him money because clearly he'll lose money, he doesn't entrust his own family and if you look back at what Murray, Whyte, Green, Ashley done to us at EVERY point we could scrutinise and block every devious move at every turn
If a share issue was opened up to anybody, somebody like Ashley could buy in. We’ve all seen how he operates and he doesn’t need a large shareholding to worm his way in. The best way to prevent that is protect Kings shares and get them to an organisation like club1872 where we can protect ourselves from the actions of those people. All imo of course.
 
I’m in no position to buy shares but if I was I wouldn’t be giving club1872 money for them I wouldn’t want my own.
If I was interested, it would be a personal purchase so the shares belonged to me and my family. There is no need to gift the cash to club 1872 in my eyes. If I bought shares from King it serves the same end purpose. Shares in the hands of the right people.
 
My opinion is club1872 should always look to increase its shareholding by investing in the club

it’s win win

they should not be buying rich fans shares off them seems totally daft idea to me
 
Loan the money to the club and take shares in return

why can’t they do that?
 
Loan the money to the club and take shares in return

why can’t they do that?

Because King then has to sell his shares to someone else and it could be someone like Whyte?

He's not going to keep them and be your security blanket.
 
I was member of the Trust and club 1872 and paid in just under £1400 over several years, but have no personal Rangers shares. I then stopped investing in October.
I'd be willing to give Dave King money to buy some shares but don't want involved with Club1872.
I want Rangers supporters on the board because of their business expertise and don't believe club1872 would offer that.
 
The fans being the largest shareholder in the club is a recipe for disaster. A substantial shareholding which allows us a big say in how the club is ran and which would give us the power to block any boardroom moves we didn't like is the way forward.

The club needs rich investors supplemented by the fans. I couldn't think of anything worse than the fans being the main voice in the boardroom at the club and having the decisive say on operational matters.
 
If I was interested, it would be a personal purchase so the shares belonged to me and my family. There is no need to gift the cash to club 1872 in my eyes. If I bought shares from King it serves the same end purpose. Shares in the hands of the right people.

It doesn't serve the same purpose at all as it doesn't give one section the power to veto with an entire 25%+1 holding.

It leaves the entire club open to something like Whyte / Green happening again.

You might have your shares "in the hands of the right people" but if Gibson or anyone else sells theirs and someone can be buying up King's shares here and there like you're doing, it opens everything up again.

I'd say this. King has been proven right on pretty much every single last word he's spoken since 2014. He's now looking at this to be his preferred way of continuing the protection of our club. Why would so many people be keen to stand against that and say "I know better and it'll work out the same anyway" ?
 
The fans being the largest shareholder in the club is a recipe for disaster. A substantial shareholding which allows us a big say in how the club is ran and which would give us the power to block any boardroom moves we didn't like is the way forward.

The club needs rich investors supplemented by the fans. I couldn't think of anything worse than the fans being the main voice in the boardroom at the club and having the decisive say on operational matters.

You could't think of anything worse? Really?

With all we've been through, you're struggling to think of something that could be worse than an elected member of a share holding which is voted on by Rangers fans having a partial say in club operations?

Nothing worse that that is coming to mind?

%^*& me.
 
I’ve already put close to half of that in with historical donations. I don’t think it’s a big ask of the fans, no.
 
Here's another scenario to ponder.

King wants out because he wants to reduce his financial exposure in the club, claw back his cash having performed his primary objective of saving the club from the sharks and protect it from future sharks as he doesn't trust his family to not sell to the highest bidder. Pretty admirable I'd say.

Club1872 want to get ownership to 25% and in phase 2 of their legacy plan, get representation on the board. Good, I'm all for fan ownership/influence, that's why I'm already a member. But their FAQ states it won't be a Club1872 board member on the RFC board but someone that they find and appoint to the role with the necessary experience / skills.

I wonder therefore if the cunning plan is that Club1872's eventual representative on the board could in fact be the very same Dave King? Still able to influence, acting for the supporters collective (he is one after all) based on member votes but without the personal financial exposure that he no longer wants. And we know he can work with the other board members. Just a thought that went through my head after one too many coffee's today. :)
 
You could't think of anything worse? Really?

With all we've been through, you're struggling to think of something that could be worse than an elected member of a share holding which is voted on by Rangers fans having a partial say in club operations?

Nothing worse that that is coming to mind?

%^*& me.

If you read my post again, you'll see I said I would like us to have a substantial shareholding that allows us to hold the balance of power in the boardroom and would prevent any dodgy deals getting put through that wasn't to the benefit of the long term longevity of the club.

Being the biggest shareholder and the kingmaker in the boardroom? I am struggling to think of much worse from an operational perspective, yes. The divisions within our fans groups have been shambolic over the years.
 
There is absolutely no chance of them getting 20,000 to pay £650 each which for most would be on top of season tickets, my gers and merchandise
 
It doesn't serve the same purpose at all as it doesn't give one section the power to veto with an entire 25%+1 holding.

It leaves the entire club open to something like Whyte / Green happening again.

You might have your shares "in the hands of the right people" but if Gibson or anyone else sells theirs and someone can be buying up King's shares here and there like you're doing, it opens everything up again.

I'd say this. King has been proven right on pretty much every single last word he's spoken since 2014. He's now looking at this to be his preferred way of continuing the protection of our club. Why would so many people be keen to stand against that and say "I know better and it'll work out the same anyway" ?
If club1872 was the vehicle to obtaining Kings shares then a condition could be to proxy your voting rights to them.
Just think you have more chance of getting the figure you need if the fans owned the shares.
 
If club1872 was the vehicle to obtaining Kings shares then a condition could be to proxy your voting rights to them.
Just think you have more chance of getting the figure you need if the fans owned the shares.

I agree with that. I'd prefer to have shares in my own name but proxy the voting rights to Club1872 for collective supporter influence. That's a scenario I'd much prefer.
 
I am a member of club1872 , the aim was to buy share and increase our holding, we only have circa 7k contributors just now which is really poor tbh given the size of club , I don’t see how we will get another 20,000 tbh.
 
Mr King should offer the fans, season ticket holders, Mygers members and supporters clubs members for instance, then 'the fans' have a large stake in the club and can vote with whoever they feel is best for the club.
I would happily buy more shares but personally would not go in with Club 72 or any other large fan based group, too much in fighting happens in similar groups as far as I have seen.
Only my opinion of course
That’s not really possible as these are existing shares.

They would have to be sold via a broker and clearly it would be near enough impossible not to say costly to instruct said broker to sell his holding to thousands of different parties
 
Not exactly clued up on this business stuff, but as I see it, Club 1872 is the vehicle of the broad Rangers support to acquire a large chunk of shares as one single entity/shareholder. Every supporter who wants to buy shares can sure do it too, yet would be one of hundreds or thousands of others with next to no "power".

King's shares would push Club1872 over the 25 % threshold and such would ensure that no event like 2012 can happen again ... even though you have to take into context that most other major shareholders are essentially Rangers supporters too, who are able to invest sums that the rest can only dream of. Badly needed these last few years. Major new investment / monetary help will come from them or new big guns (these Hongkong based chaps?) - if required. As I pointed out elsewhere, getting 55+ and one single entry into the CL group stages will set our finances straight for some time to come.

IMHO, this is a win-win situation for the normal Rangers supporter, you just have to take your own path. Pump money into Club 1872 to get these shares and ensure Rangers' future or buy shares and hand money to the club directly (50odd thousand do that by buying season tickets, many more by buying Rangers merch).
 
My biggest worry is who is going to lead C1872 if they can pull the purchase off

Paul Murray,Chris Graham,Mark Dingwall?? Would be good choices
 
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I think it's great fans being able to stop the club falling into the hands of any unscrupulous bastards down the line, but equally concerned vital income into the club could be blocked.

Fans don't tend to think with their heads.

It's not sustainable to continue as we are. Our accounts next year will not be pretty reading, Park and others are committed to covering the shortfall which is great but that won't and can't last forever. One bad season with no European football and stuff starts to look grim.
 
My biggest worry is who is going to lead C1872 if they can pull the purchase off

Paul Murray,Chris Graham,Mark Dingwall??
Why would you worry about any of those three representing the fans? To my eye all three have shown many times they bleed rangers and would be perfect to represent us on the board
 
Because King then has to sell his shares to someone else and it could be someone like Whyte?

He's not going to keep them and be your security blanket.
Alternatively, in (hopefully many!) years to come, his family will most likely dispose of the shares, should they to be left to them, and as DK himself said, they don't have the same affinity to the club, so the highest bidder may be their only consideration.

That said, the OP makes a valid point and I assume there is a plan B for the shares, or any residual shares, if C1872 don't secure the financial backing required.
 
King has made clear the shares are up for sale, if C1872 don't buy they'll go elsewhere.

Fans have a big decision to make, I have a pot of cash to invest. There's no point going it alone, but can I trust C1872 with my investment?

Not getting involved in a knee jerk reaction as there is potential to get our fingers burned.
 
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