David White - where did it go wrong?

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
I got it on Amazon, mate. I also got Scot Symon biography also by Leggat but from another source as it wasn't available on Amazon, both good reading. I will find the source for the Symon book if you like
Got it.
One left for whoever is interested.
 

penilee57

Well-Known Member
OP... turns out you’ve got a great thread going... I was 11 in 69 and although the Berwick score is seared in my mind... I didn’t know the back story of White’s time and also the ugliness of WW putting the sword to DW... a shockingly un Rangers like, action IMO
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
Tell me that number plate has been photoshopped.
 

dublinbluenose

Well-Known Member
A lot of fans fail to see that Waddells trophy haul at the club as manager over three and a half years was never the greatest, great player apparently but a very dislikeable person by many accounts.
By all accounts he and Jock Wallace didn’t see eye to eye on a lot of things.jock wanted Alan Hanson and Waddell told him we will not a penny over 90k to get him.Liverpool got him for 100’000
 

Johansen

Well-Known Member
By all accounts he and Jock Wallace didn’t see eye to eye on a lot of things.jock wanted Alan Hanson and Waddell told him we will not a penny over 90k to get him.Liverpool got him for 100’000
Waddell was a person with a dictatorial attitude within the club for years. To be fair he did a tremendous job both during and after 2nd January 1971 as well as pushing for development of the stadium
 

dublinbluenose

Well-Known Member
Waddell was a person with a dictatorial attitude within the club for years. To be fair he did a tremendous job both during and after 2nd January 1971 as well as pushing for development of the stadium
Without his leadership in the days and weeks after the 2nd of January the club would have been floundering and that and the stadium is his greatest achievement.
 

Grant K

Well-Known Member
For any Bears who were there at the time, is it too simplistic to say that he was simply overwhelmed by the job and by Stein as well?

Interested to know if he was on a hiding to nothing from the start or whether other factors were at play.

Remember my uncle saying the atmosphere at the Gornik Zabre match was properly mutinous.

Random thread I know but reading the 50 Greatest Games book and his name came up.
White was a young manager with fresh ideas and had a team that played a brand of exciting football. They could compete with a very good Celtic team but failed to win any trophies.

White’s youth and willingness to turn a blind eye to players failure to comply with accepted standards (tops tucked into shorts, socks rolled down) upset traditionalist like Waddell. Then there was the re-signing of Baxter which also caused some friction and there was a perception that there was no discipline within the squad.

Gornik were a very good side who played extremely well and had a winger who had the game of his life. The first half was fairly even and Baxter scored a great goal. There winger, I think was called Lubanski ran riot in the second half and memory suggest he took the ball past Neef twice before scoring one of their goals.

There is little doubt Waddell used his position as a former player, successful Manager with Kilmarnock, and journalist with the then big circulation Express to his own advantage. This may be the reason he was never a popular figure with the rank and file support.

However a retrospective view of his time as Manager, General Manager (now called Director of Football) and Director shows him to be a man of vision and purpose who was responsible for putting in place the building blocks for the successes of the 70’s.

It’s also worth mentioning that he was always willing to give young players a chance with Conn, Johnstone, Parlane, Fyfe, Iain MacDonald given opportunities.
 
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Haining84

Well-Known Member
Love these threads that pop up with the old boys in the support giving great insight into events of yesteryear.

Also at 36 years old it makes me feel like young team again..:p;)
 
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MO_TxTruBlu

Well-Known Member
Without his leadership in the days and weeks after the 2nd of January the club would have been floundering and that and the stadium is his greatest achievement.
The Stadium?....going to a 45,000 Capacity, when we could easily put 80,000 for probably half a dozen games a season, with a decent run in Europe.
You think denying 35,000 fans a chance, and killing an atmosphere when it really mattered was an achievement?.
I think it was short sightedness at the very least.
 

Johansen

Well-Known Member
The Stadium?....going to a 45,000 Capacity, when we could easily put 80,000 for probably half a dozen games a season, with a decent run in Europe.
You think denying 35,000 fans a chance, and killing an atmosphere when it really mattered was an achievement?.
I think it was short sightedness at the very least.
So do you think that we shouldn't have went to an all seated stadium. Waddell was looking to make the stadium as safe as possible for the support after the 1971 tragedy, if that meant reducing the capacity then it was a decision that had to be made and the events of Hillsborough highlight Waddell's foresight in this. Uppermost in his mind was ensuring that the tragedy of 1971 would never happen again at Ibrox and for this he was 100% correct.
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
The Stadium?....going to a 45,000 Capacity, when we could easily put 80,000 for probably half a dozen games a season, with a decent run in Europe.
You think denying 35,000 fans a chance, and killing an atmosphere when it really mattered was an achievement?.
I think it was short sightedness at the very least.
Have a look at the attendances at the time.
Most weeks 20,000 was good.
30,000 excellent.
Not sure there was ever a sell out.
You could get a ticket for every game you wanted.
Easy to say now that the stadium should have been bigger.
One thing I would say is that the design should have been such that extra tiers could have been easily .added
 

Faither

Member
White was unlucky in his first season not to win the title but dropping points v Dundee Utd and Morton in the last 6 game run in cost us the league tbh. The team only lost once in the league that season v Aberdeen in the last game at Pittodrie but even if we had won that game we would still have finished second as that mob from the east end had a superior goal average.
 

MO_TxTruBlu

Well-Known Member
Have a look at the attendances at the time.
Most weeks 20,000 was good.
30,000 excellent.
Not sure there was ever a sell out.
You could get a ticket for every game you wanted.
Easy to say now that the stadium should have been bigger.
One thing I would say is that the design should have been such that extra tiers could have been easily .added
I don't need to look at attendances at the time, I am well aware of what crowds we got at the time.
You might want to take a look yourself.
1971-72...85,000 v Celtic (LCQ)
...................80,000 v Celtic (L)
...................80,000 v Bayern Munich (E)
..................75,000 v Torino
We had 40,000 -50,000 for games v Aberdeen, Falkirk, Motherwell, Morton, Rennes, Sporting Lisbon.

We had 26 Games at Ibrox that season, and in the first 23 of those games, we never had less than 20,000 at any time.
Only our last 3 League games, where Waddell had us trailing Celtic by a humiliating 17 Points, did we get less than 20,000 at Ibrox.
So your "20,000 was good" really is a load of shite!

Even back in the late 40's/early 50's when we would get crowds of 90,000 -100,000 plus at Ibrox for Hibs, Celtic, East Fife, we would still have days at Ibrox, where there was less than 20,000.

Like I said, it was short sighted to design a Stadium for Rangers with a capacity of 44,000.
 

MO_TxTruBlu

Well-Known Member
So do you think that we shouldn't have went to an all seated stadium. Waddell was looking to make the stadium as safe as possible for the support after the 1971 tragedy, if that meant reducing the capacity then it was a decision that had to be made and the events of Hillsborough highlight Waddell's foresight in this. Uppermost in his mind was ensuring that the tragedy of 1971 would never happen again at Ibrox and for this he was 100% correct.

I agree that we should have gone to an all seater stadium, for the most part,
I just think that designing a Stadium for Rangers with a capacity of 44,000 with little scope to increase that, was very short sighted.

I believe Waddell took Borussia Dortmund's Stadium as the model to design 'the new Ibrox'.
Dortmund's stadium, I think, had a 54,000 capacity at the time, it now has a capacity of over 80,000.
Our stadium for all it's improvements over the years, has increased by maybe 7,000.

I just think Rangers should have the largest Club Stadium capacity in Britain,
as our numerous attendance records over the years should dictate,
and yet today, we are probably not in the top 10 Football stadiums in Britain, capacity wise,
and we have the third largest football stadium in Glasgow.
 

Stanley

Well-Known Member
For me, that period was difficult for all of us bears. I was at most of the games mentioned. The joy of beating them 4-2 on their own patch only to draw at Morton and lose against the sheep on the last day of 68/69 was hard to take. The ’69 SCF was shocking. Watching their captain out jump our defence after 2 mins was bad. Going out to Gornik the next season 69/70 for many of us was the last straw.
 

Fingers1872

Well-Known Member
I don't need to look at attendances at the time, I am well aware of what crowds we got at the time.
You might want to take a look yourself.
1971-72...85,000 v Celtic (LCQ)
...................80,000 v Celtic (L)
...................80,000 v Bayern Munich (E)
..................75,000 v Torino
We had 40,000 -50,000 for games v Aberdeen, Falkirk, Motherwell, Morton, Rennes, Sporting Lisbon.

We had 26 Games at Ibrox that season, and in the first 23 of those games, we never had less than 20,000 at any time.
Only our last 3 League games, where Waddell had us trailing Celtic by a humiliating 17 Points, did we get less than 20,000 at Ibrox.
So your "20,000 was good" really is a load of shite!

Even back in the late 40's/early 50's when we would get crowds of 90,000 -100,000 plus at Ibrox for Hibs, Celtic, East Fife, we would still have days at Ibrox, where there was less than 20,000.

Like I said, it was short sighted to design a Stadium for Rangers with a capacity of 44,000.
Football crowds in general had a sharp drop in the period you mention. Just look at the 73 & 77 cup final attendances. I know the 77 final was live on TV, a rarity at the time, but it doesn't explain 60 odd thousand less people attending.
 

ao2

Well-Known Member
Football crowds in general had a sharp drop in the period you mention. Just look at the 73 & 77 cup final attendances. I know the 77 final was live on TV, a rarity at the time, but it doesn't explain 60 odd thousand less people attending.

This is true but it was short-sighted to think attendances would never go back up. Pre-war attendances for run of the mill games were rarely that great but after the end of hostilities they went back up and there was every reason to think it could happen again. The original plans for Ibrox were 56,000 but for some reason they dropped it to 44,000 and the design meant adding tiers was unlikely, or costly if we did. It was a mistake.

But we should be grateful to Waddell for his leadership after the disaster because by all accounts the Rangers Board to a man were in disarray otherwise, given there had been other crushes over the previous decade. Waddell provided a steadying hand at a chaotic and tragic time for the club, and I'm grateful to him for that.
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
I don't need to look at attendances at the time, I am well aware of what crowds we got at the time.
You might want to take a look yourself.
1971-72...85,000 v Celtic (LCQ)
...................80,000 v Celtic (L)
...................80,000 v Bayern Munich (E)
..................75,000 v Torino
We had 40,000 -50,000 for games v Aberdeen, Falkirk, Motherwell, Morton, Rennes, Sporting Lisbon.

We had 26 Games at Ibrox that season, and in the first 23 of those games, we never had less than 20,000 at any time.
Only our last 3 League games, where Waddell had us trailing Celtic by a humiliating 17 Points, did we get less than 20,000 at Ibrox.
So your "20,000 was good" really is a load of shite!

Even back in the late 40's/early 50's when we would get crowds of 90,000 -100,000 plus at Ibrox for Hibs, Celtic, East Fife, we would still have days at Ibrox, where there was less than 20,000.

Like I said, it was short sighted to design a Stadium for Rangers with a capacity of 44,000.
Season 73/74, only four league games over 30,000.
Season 74/75, less than half the league attendance were over 30,000 and this was bolstered post New year when we were looking like winning the league.
Season 75-76 less than half the league attendances over 30,000.
Season 76-77 only six league attendances over 30,000, the six being the two games against Hibs, Hearts and Celtic.
Season 77-78 Only five league attendances over 30,000
Season 78-79 only three league attendances over 30,000.

By season 81-82, and this is post reconstruction, we got around half our games over 20,000.
The following year, I think it was only five or six got more than 20,000.
So if my 20,000 comment was a load of shite, surely that we, at the time of planning, when we were very seldom reaching over 40,000, showed a lack of vision, is, well, I‘ll just say nonsense.
(I won’t be so “neddish” with my posts)
 

Johnj98

Active Member
John Lawrence had far too much influence on team matters. It was his decision that Forrest and McLean were dropped and subsequently sold, and his fawning over the scum the night before we played Bayern Munich in the CWC Final was a kick in the teeth for the players and manager who'd done so well to take us there. If Forrest and McLean, or even one of them (or Willoughby) had played in Nuremberg we'd probably have won that night and I doubt they'd have won the 9iar.

Lawrence is not a man I have a lot of affection for - I'll leave it at that!
Your spot on mate about Lawrence,to this day I believe he cost us in Munich when he got rid of the goal machine that was Jim Forrest just because he had an off day against Berwick,don't think that mob would have got there 9iar,after such a disastrous knee-jerk reaction after Berwick.
 
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Twosignals

Well-Known Member
Harold Davis book talks about Davie White being ahead of his time on the coaching side of the game, but needed a hard man beside him. Davis was his assistant at Dundee and they did well beating Jock Stein's mob in one of the cup finals. Davis also said Waddell played a part in what happened to White at Rangers.

I don't think Warburton was ahead of his time regarding football tactics and coaching.
When I talked about Warburton like White, they didn’t have a demeaning manner of strength.
 

cskasofia

Member
I’m not disputing the fact that Celtic were a good side in those days and there’s an ongoing narrative about the brilliance of the much ballyhooed ‘67 Euro cup winning side.
There’s almost however a Parkhead style cover up of their defence of the trophy. It started in August ‘67, just a couple of months after the Lisbon final.
They were knocked out in the first round by a team who were themselves knocked out the second round.
Completely different contest back then.
Linfield reached the quarter finals in 67, also Dundee got to the semi finals a few years earlier.
 

ao2

Well-Known Member
Your spot on mate about Lawrence,to this day I believe he cost us in Munich when he got rid of the goal machine that was Jim Forrest just because he had an off day against Berwick,don't think that mob would have got there 9iar,after such a disastrous knee-jerk reaction after Berwick.


It says it all about him that he was always away on holiday in Morocco when it came time for the Scottish Cup Final. It's bad enough doing that nowadays with the internet, but back then there was no way of watching the game on TV abroad or even listening on the radio. He was out for his own self and was especially unhappy when Kelly at the scum got his knighthood soon after Lisbon and he was overlooked. He wasn't the last at the top out for himself unfortunately, as we know all too well.
 

The Barcelona Bear

Well-Known Member
David White was thrown in the deep end when the board was stuck for ideas, similar to what happened to John Greig after Jock Wallace left.Symon was finished and White became the first ever tracksuit manager at Ibrox. The task was just too big for him and he was stabbed in the back bye Waddell, who fancied the job. Waddell will go down in history for bringing us our first and only European trophy but by all accounts he was a bit of a bastard.
 

DC Anchor

Well-Known Member
Following White's departure, in his biography of Jock Stein, Archie Macpherson suggests that that Rangers director David Hope sounded out Jock Stein to see if he was interested in 'coming home".
Stein by that time had moved well past his staunch Rangers background and had jumped the dyke with a great deal of bitterness towards his boyhood heroes, Rangers.
 

stonewall Jackson

Well-Known Member
Like baw face White was one of the first "Tracksuit" managers in scottish football. A complete opposite to Scot Symon who was treated appallingly by the board when he was sacked and informed by a third party. White was actually a very good coach who was unfortunate to come up against baw face who was a master of the darker aspects of management. His lack of experience was a factor in his downfall, stories at the time of lack of respect from some senior players, and a hostile campaign by Waddell who was a journalist with the daily express. The debacle that was the 69 SCF finished White and he was a dead man walking after that.
 

wee bud's pit boots

Well-Known Member
Without his leadership in the days and weeks after the 2nd of January the club would have been floundering and that and the stadium is his greatest achievement.
You don't know if the club would have floundered without his leadership. Maybe it would have, but they certainly floundered in the league under his leadership.

As for the stadium? Nah, I'm not having that.

Waddell as a player played at Ibrox regularly in front on 50/60/70/80/90 and even 100,000 fans.

In all truth being the driving force behind an all seated Ibrox with only 45,000 fans has left us chasing shadows. Some vision that.

And it will now in the present day be too cost prohibitive to get Ibrox back to what it always was and what it should be. The greatest stadium in the country with the biggest capacity to cater for the biggest support.
 

bilkobear

Well-Known Member
Following White's departure, in his biography of Jock Stein, Archie Macpherson suggests that that Rangers director David Hope sounded out Jock Stein to see if he was interested in 'coming home".
Stein by that time had moved well past his staunch Rangers background and had jumped the dyke with a great deal of bitterness towards his boyhood heroes, Rangers.
Why was Stein bitter towards Rangers, what harm had the club ever offered to him?
I always thought Stein a good manager but a bit of a cvunt, I would suggest his bitterness was borne from his own flawed personality.
He was just a cvunt, bitter or otherwise.
 

DC Anchor

Well-Known Member
Why was Stein bitter towards Rangers, what harm had the club ever offered to him?
I always thought Stein a good manager but a bit of a cvunt, I would suggest his bitterness was borne from his own flawed personality.
He was just a cvunt, bitter or otherwise.
He came from a staunch Rangers background, his family and friends never forgave him for signing for them. It caused him a great deal of personal pain and he was bitter about it.
He was a bastard as manager but lots of great managers are or have to be!
Stein took games and issues about Rangers very personally.
 

Johansen

Well-Known Member
Why was Stein bitter towards Rangers, what harm had the club ever offered to him?
I always thought Stein a good manager but a bit of a cvunt, I would suggest his bitterness was borne from his own flawed personality.
He was just a cvunt, bitter or otherwise.
Apparently his father was a big Rangers man and when Stein signed for them it caused a massive bitterness from his father to Stein, their relationship was never the same. I remember reading that Stein was home from playing in Wales when his former best friend came to visit Steins mother, the woman informed the friend that; her words "John is in the next room", the man turned on his heels and walked out without saying a word to Stein. His signing for that mob was never accepted by the community of Burbank. The fall out with his father turned Stein to have a hatred and bitterness to Rangers.
 

MearnsUnionist

Well-Known Member
My old man told me in the past it was unfortunate timing for him due to their dominance as i asked the same question


I wasn't around then , but I know the elder statesmen in my family thought he was a better manager than Waddell and certainly his record against Celtic was way better.

They also felt he wasn't strong enough in dealing with certain players, one in particular.

Was always going to struggle after the 69 Cup Final I think.

Couldn't win the big matches against them, despite some excellent performances against them in other games.
 

DC Anchor

Well-Known Member
Apparently his father was a big Rangers man and when Stein signed for them it caused a massive bitterness from his father to Stein, their relationship was never the same. I remember reading that Stein was home from playing in Wales when his former best friend came to visit Steins mother, the woman informed the friend that; her words "John is in the next room", the man turned on his heels and walked out without saying a word to Stein. His signing for that mob was never accepted by the community of Burbank. The fall out with his father turned Stein to have a hatred and bitterness to Rangers.
Stein himself was also a big Rangers man. It was simply in the DNA of his community.
This was held against him on many occasions at the Piggery.
When he left as a youth coach it was made clear to him that he had gone as far as could be expected....for a protestant! Not only was he rejected by his own but faced bigotry from that lot as well. That's a lot to carry for anyone and it embittered him even more.
 

MO_TxTruBlu

Well-Known Member
Season 73/74, only four league games over 30,000.
Season 74/75, less than half the league attendance were over 30,000 and this was bolstered post New year when we were looking like winning the league.
Season 75-76 less than half the league attendances over 30,000.
Season 76-77 only six league attendances over 30,000, the six being the two games against Hibs, Hearts and Celtic.
Season 77-78 Only five league attendances over 30,000
Season 78-79 only three league attendances over 30,000.

By season 81-82, and this is post reconstruction, we got around half our games over 20,000.
The following year, I think it was only five or six got more than 20,000.
So if my 20,000 comment was a load of shite, surely that we, at the time of planning, when we were very seldom reaching over 40,000, showed a lack of vision, is, well, I‘ll just say nonsense.
(I won’t be so “neddish” with my posts)

How much nonsense can you post?
We don't just play our League games at Ibrox, we play Cup games at Ibrox too, but you conveniently choose to ignore that, because it makes your foolish argument even more foolish.
It was you that said
"Most weeks 20,000 was good. 30,000 excellent."
Which I pointed out to you (with facts) was a load of shite.

Even with all the expensive improvements we have made to the stadium over the last 40 plus years, we still have a capacity that is below 52,000.
I can think of at least 10 fixtures, just last season alone, whereby we could easily have sold a lot more than 50,000 tickets.

Like I said, it was short sighted to design a Stadium for Rangers with a capacity of 44,000.

If you think 'vision' is based on 'at the time of planning' as opposed to the ability to think about or plan the future with imagination or wisdom, and restricting Rangers to a 44,000 capacity,
then your vision is as flawed as your posts.
 
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Jase

Well-Known Member
Davie White did pretty well at Clyde but at Rangers you need to win stuff. The unwashed were unfortunately in a purple patch so we were always playing second fiddle.

I thought Waddell’s nonsense was unnecessary and self-serving.

In different times I think White might have been regarded a lot more favourably but he never really got a chance.

He was also too nice a guy for such.a job.
 
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Johnj98

Active Member
Like baw face White was one of the first "Tracksuit" managers in scottish football. A complete opposite to Scot Symon who was treated appallingly by the board when he was sacked and informed by a third party. White was actually a very good coach who was unfortunate to come up against baw face who was a master of the darker aspects of management. His lack of experience was a factor in his downfall, stories at the time of lack of respect from some senior players, and a hostile campaign by Waddell who was a journalist with the daily express. The debacle that was the 69 SCF finished White and he was a dead man walking after that.

Like baw face White was one of the first "Tracksuit" managers in scottish football. A complete opposite to Scot Symon who was treated appallingly by the board when he was sacked and informed by a third party. White was actually a very good coach who was unfortunate to come up against baw face who was a master of the darker aspects of management. His lack of experience was a factor in his downfall, stories at the time of lack of respect from some senior players, and a hostile campaign by Waddell who was a journalist with the daily express. The debacle that was the 69 SCF finished White and he was a dead man walking after that.
Yes you mention some senior players,I remember when the team were preparing for a European game that Baxter and Henderson failed to turn up for breakfast at the hotel they were staying at the time,and also late for training,as it's well known Baxter got away with nearly anything under Symon and probably thought he could do it with David White as we'll.
 
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