David White - where did it go wrong?

From what I've been told by someone totally honorable within the club...

Scot Symon was a great manager, the players loved him and he wasn't old-fashioned in the least - he was actually quite innovative for the time and he won several league titles.

Stein started giving him a challenge and Symon went toe to toe with him. The difference being, Stein was given the freedom to do what he liked at that point (as the Celtic board simply wanted to win at all costs) and Symon was restricted by ridiculous Rangers Board decisions and restraints. He made his frustration clear to them.

The flukey loss to Berwick gave the board the excuse to get rid of a good man and manager, as well as several great players.

It was a huge mistake in hindsight.

A huge mistake indeed.
 
From what I've been told by someone totally honorable within the club...

Scot Symon was a great manager, the players loved him and he wasn't old-fashioned in the least - he was actually quite innovative for the time and he won several league titles.

Stein started giving him a challenge and Symon went toe to toe with him. The difference being, Stein was given the freedom to do what he liked at that point (as the Celtic board simply wanted to win at all costs) and Symon was restricted by ridiculous Rangers Board decisions and restraints. He made his frustration clear to them.

The flukey loss to Berwick gave the board the excuse to get rid of a good man and manager, as well as several great players.

It was a huge mistake in hindsight.

John Lawrence had far too much influence on team matters. It was his decision that Forrest and McLean were dropped and subsequently sold, and his fawning over the scum the night before we played Bayern Munich in the CWC Final was a kick in the teeth for the players and manager who'd done so well to take us there. If Forrest and McLean, or even one of them (or Willoughby) had played in Nuremberg we'd probably have won that night and I doubt they'd have won the 9iar.

Lawrence is not a man I have a lot of affection for - I'll leave it at that!
 
Waddell was at the club, official capacity or no.

I'm often facetious on here but not regarding this.

I spoke to the man himself and he's a Scottish football legend.

It broke his heart to leave but he was loyal to Scot.
Waddell was working for the express newspaper when Symon was sacked and had nothing to do with the sacking and if you read back to the sacking you'll see that the men responsible were Chairman Lawrence,Vice Chairman Taylor and Willie Allison who for some reason had some influence with Lawrence. The club sent an accountant Alex Bain to Symon at home to inform him of his sacking. What I will agree with you is that Bobby Seith one of Symons coaches was very loyal to Symon.
Waddell gets a lot of negativity about his attitude but he was in fact a good friend of Symon. There has never been any accusation of Waddell being involved in the sacking at any time. If you want to state facts then state them, not chinese whispers of he said this and that. A lot of research went into the Symon biography, I'll go with that.
 
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Waddell was working for the express newspaper when Symon was sacked and had nothing to do with the sacking and if you read back to the sacking you'll see that the men responsible were Chairman Lawrence,Vice Chairman Taylor and Willie Allison who for some reason had some influence with Lawrence. The club sent an accountant Alex Bain to Symon at home to inform him of his sacking. What I will agree with you is that Bobby Seith one of Symons coaches was very loyal to Symon. Waddell gets a lot of negativity about his attitude but he was in fact a good friend of Symon. Thert has never bet any accusation of Waddell being involved in the sacking at any time. If you want to state facts then state them, not chinese whispers of he said this and that. A lot of research went into the Symon biography, I'll go with that.

Bobby Seith is a relative of mine and a better gentleman than you and I will ever know.

He was Assistant Manager of Rangers and I've had the pleasure of his company, discussing our club.

Yes, it was he who I enjoyed sharing memories with. I'd trust that gent with my life.

If he says Scot Symon was treated badly and Waddell was part of that, I'll back him against any internet know it all. The man is truth, personified.

Rangers never sacked him, he wilfully left a club he loved because he believed a true friend was treated wrongly.
 
From what I've been told by someone totally honorable within the club...

Scot Symon was a great manager, the players loved him and he wasn't old-fashioned in the least - he was actually quite innovative for the time and he won several league titles.

Stein started giving him a challenge and Symon went toe to toe with him. The difference being, Stein was given the freedom to do what he liked at that point (as the Celtic board simply wanted to win at all costs) and Symon was restricted by ridiculous Rangers Board decisions and restraints. He made his frustration clear to them.

The flukey loss to Berwick gave the board the excuse to get rid of a good man and manager, as well as several great players.

It was a huge mistake in hindsight.

I've read quite a few players from that time who say he was a nice man but didn't do so well when it came to tactics. Games against the likes of Real Madrid and Spurs were played as if we were up against Third Lanark or Airdrie in the league and his team talk before the game at White Hart Lane was going through their team man by man telling our players how good they were at this and that, and not on how to combat them. But he certainly didn't deserve to be treated the way he was at the end and it's yet another blot on Lawrence's copybook for me, among many I might add. He should have been offered a post similar to that which was later given to Waddell when he left the manager's chair.
 
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April 1969 we beat them 4-3 in a Glasgow Cup Semi Final. I’d need to check for other results

11th April, a Friday night.

I was at school in Dundee then, and went to Tannadice that night to see the Scottish Schoolboys beat the Norn Iron Schoolboys 5-2, with two goals scored by a a certain 15-year old Derek Johnstone.
 
Bobby Seith is a relative of mine and a better gentleman than you and I will ever know.

He was Assistant Manager of Rangers and I've had the pleasure of his company, discussing our club.

Yes, it was he who I enjoyed sharing memories with. I'd trust that gent with my life.

If he says Scot Symon was treated badly and Waddell was part of that, I'll back him against any internet know it all. The man is truth, personified.

Rangers never sacked him, he wilfully left a club he loved because he believed a true friend was treated wrongly.
I realise full well how good a person Seith is and how loyal to Symon he was, no one is disputing any of that but personally i prefer to rely on the written word, not that it is always factual, however reading biographies of Rangers managers, players, etc gives us all a better insight into incidents. However without being an 'internet know it all' and reading Symons biography there is nothing in the authors research to suggest that Waddell had a hand in the sacking, in fact it is said he was a good friend of Symon.
 
I've read quite a few players from that time who say he was a nice man but didn't do so well when it came to tactics. Games against the likes of Real Madrid and Spurs were played as if we were up against Third Lanark or Airdrie in the league and his team talk before the game at White Hart Lane was going through their team man by man telling our players how good they were at this and that, and not on how to combat them. But he certainly didn't deserve to be treated the way he was at the end and it's yet another blot on Lawrence's copybook for me, among many I might add. He should have been offered a post similar to that which was later given to Waddell when he left the manager's chair.
He was treated shamefully by the Chairman and Vice Chairman but Willie Allison, who i think was the press officer at the time had far too much influence with Lawrence as regards the running of the club.
 
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I realise full well how good a person Seith is and how loyal to Symon he was, no one is disputing any of that but personally i prefer to rely on the written word, not that it is always factual, however reading biographies of Rangers managers, players, etc gives us all a better insight into incidents. However without being an 'internet know it all' and reading Symons biography there is nothing in the authors research to suggest that Waddell had a hand in the sacking, in fact it is said he was a good friend of Symon.

Some people don't want to make a book.

I think Bobby would rather be remembered for his playing career.

I'm only saying what I was told by the most genuine person I've ever met in life who was actually Rangers Assistant Manager at the time. Scot Symon was hardly failing. Bobby was actually planned to be the successor you know?

Scot was hung out to dry, he couldn't tie his laces without permission from the board.

Bobby was and is a great man.

Rangers wanted to keep him. The treatment of Scot was so bad, he resigned.
 
Some people don't want to make a book.

I think Bobby would rather be remembered for his playing career.

I'm only saying what I was told by the most genuine person I've ever met in life who was actually Rangers Assistant Manager at the time. Scot Symon was hardly failing. Bobby was actually planned to be the successor you know?

Scot was hung out to dry, he couldn't tie his laces without permission from the board.

Bobby was and is a great man.

Rangers wanted to keep him. The treatment of Scot was so bad, he resigned.
I know Bobby was a well regarded and honourable person, that comes across in this book about Symon, who was treated abysmally by the board. The shameful thing is that he was sacked while top of the league.
 
He was treated shamefully by the Chairman and Vice Chairman but Willie Allison, who i think was the press officer at the time had far too much influence with Lawrence as regards the running of the club.


Allison wasn't fond of Alex Ferguson either!
 
The day David White left Ibrox he saw Waddell sitting in his car outside the front door.his record v the yahoos pisses all over Waddell and white got damn sight closer to winning the title than Waddell ever did with us.
A lot of fans fail to see that Waddells trophy haul at the club as manager over three and a half years was never the greatest, great player apparently but a very dislikeable person by many accounts.
 
John Lawrence had far too much influence on team matters. It was his decision that Forrest and McLean were dropped and subsequently sold, and his fawning over the scum the night before we played Bayern Munich in the CWC Final was a kick in the teeth for the players and manager who'd done so well to take us there. If Forrest and McLean, or even one of them (or Willoughby) had played in Nuremberg we'd probably have won that night and I doubt they'd have won the 9iar.

Lawrence is not a man I have a lot of affection for - I'll leave it at that!
This is an opinion I’d been treated to throughout my early teens.
He’d done well in the business side of the club but sometimes seemed to think he was the club.
He’d be a bully by present day standards.*

*This is only my interpretation of what was said by my elders.
 
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While we rightly acknowledge the service willie Waddell gave to the club and his leadership in our darkest hour.i look at the domestic results in the 71/72 season,but for our run in and winning the ecwc the fans might well have been calling for his head.
 
I got it on Amazon, mate. I also got Scot Symon biography also by Leggat but from another source as it wasn't available on Amazon, both good reading. I will find the source for the Symon book if you like
Got it.
One left for whoever is interested.
 
OP... turns out you’ve got a great thread going... I was 11 in 69 and although the Berwick score is seared in my mind... I didn’t know the back story of White’s time and also the ugliness of WW putting the sword to DW... a shockingly un Rangers like, action IMO
 
A lot of fans fail to see that Waddells trophy haul at the club as manager over three and a half years was never the greatest, great player apparently but a very dislikeable person by many accounts.
By all accounts he and Jock Wallace didn’t see eye to eye on a lot of things.jock wanted Alan Hanson and Waddell told him we will not a penny over 90k to get him.Liverpool got him for 100’000
 
By all accounts he and Jock Wallace didn’t see eye to eye on a lot of things.jock wanted Alan Hanson and Waddell told him we will not a penny over 90k to get him.Liverpool got him for 100’000
Waddell was a person with a dictatorial attitude within the club for years. To be fair he did a tremendous job both during and after 2nd January 1971 as well as pushing for development of the stadium
 
Waddell was a person with a dictatorial attitude within the club for years. To be fair he did a tremendous job both during and after 2nd January 1971 as well as pushing for development of the stadium
Without his leadership in the days and weeks after the 2nd of January the club would have been floundering and that and the stadium is his greatest achievement.
 
For any Bears who were there at the time, is it too simplistic to say that he was simply overwhelmed by the job and by Stein as well?

Interested to know if he was on a hiding to nothing from the start or whether other factors were at play.

Remember my uncle saying the atmosphere at the Gornik Zabre match was properly mutinous.

Random thread I know but reading the 50 Greatest Games book and his name came up.
White was a young manager with fresh ideas and had a team that played a brand of exciting football. They could compete with a very good Celtic team but failed to win any trophies.

White’s youth and willingness to turn a blind eye to players failure to comply with accepted standards (tops tucked into shorts, socks rolled down) upset traditionalist like Waddell. Then there was the re-signing of Baxter which also caused some friction and there was a perception that there was no discipline within the squad.

Gornik were a very good side who played extremely well and had a winger who had the game of his life. The first half was fairly even and Baxter scored a great goal. There winger, I think was called Lubanski ran riot in the second half and memory suggest he took the ball past Neef twice before scoring one of their goals.

There is little doubt Waddell used his position as a former player, successful Manager with Kilmarnock, and journalist with the then big circulation Express to his own advantage. This may be the reason he was never a popular figure with the rank and file support.

However a retrospective view of his time as Manager, General Manager (now called Director of Football) and Director shows him to be a man of vision and purpose who was responsible for putting in place the building blocks for the successes of the 70’s.

It’s also worth mentioning that he was always willing to give young players a chance with Conn, Johnstone, Parlane, Fyfe, Iain MacDonald given opportunities.
 
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Love these threads that pop up with the old boys in the support giving great insight into events of yesteryear.

Also at 36 years old it makes me feel like young team again..:p;)
 
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Without his leadership in the days and weeks after the 2nd of January the club would have been floundering and that and the stadium is his greatest achievement.
The Stadium?....going to a 45,000 Capacity, when we could easily put 80,000 for probably half a dozen games a season, with a decent run in Europe.
You think denying 35,000 fans a chance, and killing an atmosphere when it really mattered was an achievement?.
I think it was short sightedness at the very least.
 
The Stadium?....going to a 45,000 Capacity, when we could easily put 80,000 for probably half a dozen games a season, with a decent run in Europe.
You think denying 35,000 fans a chance, and killing an atmosphere when it really mattered was an achievement?.
I think it was short sightedness at the very least.
So do you think that we shouldn't have went to an all seated stadium. Waddell was looking to make the stadium as safe as possible for the support after the 1971 tragedy, if that meant reducing the capacity then it was a decision that had to be made and the events of Hillsborough highlight Waddell's foresight in this. Uppermost in his mind was ensuring that the tragedy of 1971 would never happen again at Ibrox and for this he was 100% correct.
 
The Stadium?....going to a 45,000 Capacity, when we could easily put 80,000 for probably half a dozen games a season, with a decent run in Europe.
You think denying 35,000 fans a chance, and killing an atmosphere when it really mattered was an achievement?.
I think it was short sightedness at the very least.
Have a look at the attendances at the time.
Most weeks 20,000 was good.
30,000 excellent.
Not sure there was ever a sell out.
You could get a ticket for every game you wanted.
Easy to say now that the stadium should have been bigger.
One thing I would say is that the design should have been such that extra tiers could have been easily .added
 
White was unlucky in his first season not to win the title but dropping points v Dundee Utd and Morton in the last 6 game run in cost us the league tbh. The team only lost once in the league that season v Aberdeen in the last game at Pittodrie but even if we had won that game we would still have finished second as that mob from the east end had a superior goal average.
 
Have a look at the attendances at the time.
Most weeks 20,000 was good.
30,000 excellent.
Not sure there was ever a sell out.
You could get a ticket for every game you wanted.
Easy to say now that the stadium should have been bigger.
One thing I would say is that the design should have been such that extra tiers could have been easily .added
I don't need to look at attendances at the time, I am well aware of what crowds we got at the time.
You might want to take a look yourself.
1971-72...85,000 v Celtic (LCQ)
...................80,000 v Celtic (L)
...................80,000 v Bayern Munich (E)
..................75,000 v Torino
We had 40,000 -50,000 for games v Aberdeen, Falkirk, Motherwell, Morton, Rennes, Sporting Lisbon.

We had 26 Games at Ibrox that season, and in the first 23 of those games, we never had less than 20,000 at any time.
Only our last 3 League games, where Waddell had us trailing Celtic by a humiliating 17 Points, did we get less than 20,000 at Ibrox.
So your "20,000 was good" really is a load of shite!

Even back in the late 40's/early 50's when we would get crowds of 90,000 -100,000 plus at Ibrox for Hibs, Celtic, East Fife, we would still have days at Ibrox, where there was less than 20,000.

Like I said, it was short sighted to design a Stadium for Rangers with a capacity of 44,000.
 
So do you think that we shouldn't have went to an all seated stadium. Waddell was looking to make the stadium as safe as possible for the support after the 1971 tragedy, if that meant reducing the capacity then it was a decision that had to be made and the events of Hillsborough highlight Waddell's foresight in this. Uppermost in his mind was ensuring that the tragedy of 1971 would never happen again at Ibrox and for this he was 100% correct.

I agree that we should have gone to an all seater stadium, for the most part,
I just think that designing a Stadium for Rangers with a capacity of 44,000 with little scope to increase that, was very short sighted.

I believe Waddell took Borussia Dortmund's Stadium as the model to design 'the new Ibrox'.
Dortmund's stadium, I think, had a 54,000 capacity at the time, it now has a capacity of over 80,000.
Our stadium for all it's improvements over the years, has increased by maybe 7,000.

I just think Rangers should have the largest Club Stadium capacity in Britain,
as our numerous attendance records over the years should dictate,
and yet today, we are probably not in the top 10 Football stadiums in Britain, capacity wise,
and we have the third largest football stadium in Glasgow.
 
For me, that period was difficult for all of us bears. I was at most of the games mentioned. The joy of beating them 4-2 on their own patch only to draw at Morton and lose against the sheep on the last day of 68/69 was hard to take. The ’69 SCF was shocking. Watching their captain out jump our defence after 2 mins was bad. Going out to Gornik the next season 69/70 for many of us was the last straw.
 
I don't need to look at attendances at the time, I am well aware of what crowds we got at the time.
You might want to take a look yourself.
1971-72...85,000 v Celtic (LCQ)
...................80,000 v Celtic (L)
...................80,000 v Bayern Munich (E)
..................75,000 v Torino
We had 40,000 -50,000 for games v Aberdeen, Falkirk, Motherwell, Morton, Rennes, Sporting Lisbon.

We had 26 Games at Ibrox that season, and in the first 23 of those games, we never had less than 20,000 at any time.
Only our last 3 League games, where Waddell had us trailing Celtic by a humiliating 17 Points, did we get less than 20,000 at Ibrox.
So your "20,000 was good" really is a load of shite!

Even back in the late 40's/early 50's when we would get crowds of 90,000 -100,000 plus at Ibrox for Hibs, Celtic, East Fife, we would still have days at Ibrox, where there was less than 20,000.

Like I said, it was short sighted to design a Stadium for Rangers with a capacity of 44,000.
Football crowds in general had a sharp drop in the period you mention. Just look at the 73 & 77 cup final attendances. I know the 77 final was live on TV, a rarity at the time, but it doesn't explain 60 odd thousand less people attending.
 
Football crowds in general had a sharp drop in the period you mention. Just look at the 73 & 77 cup final attendances. I know the 77 final was live on TV, a rarity at the time, but it doesn't explain 60 odd thousand less people attending.

This is true but it was short-sighted to think attendances would never go back up. Pre-war attendances for run of the mill games were rarely that great but after the end of hostilities they went back up and there was every reason to think it could happen again. The original plans for Ibrox were 56,000 but for some reason they dropped it to 44,000 and the design meant adding tiers was unlikely, or costly if we did. It was a mistake.

But we should be grateful to Waddell for his leadership after the disaster because by all accounts the Rangers Board to a man were in disarray otherwise, given there had been other crushes over the previous decade. Waddell provided a steadying hand at a chaotic and tragic time for the club, and I'm grateful to him for that.
 
I don't need to look at attendances at the time, I am well aware of what crowds we got at the time.
You might want to take a look yourself.
1971-72...85,000 v Celtic (LCQ)
...................80,000 v Celtic (L)
...................80,000 v Bayern Munich (E)
..................75,000 v Torino
We had 40,000 -50,000 for games v Aberdeen, Falkirk, Motherwell, Morton, Rennes, Sporting Lisbon.

We had 26 Games at Ibrox that season, and in the first 23 of those games, we never had less than 20,000 at any time.
Only our last 3 League games, where Waddell had us trailing Celtic by a humiliating 17 Points, did we get less than 20,000 at Ibrox.
So your "20,000 was good" really is a load of shite!

Even back in the late 40's/early 50's when we would get crowds of 90,000 -100,000 plus at Ibrox for Hibs, Celtic, East Fife, we would still have days at Ibrox, where there was less than 20,000.

Like I said, it was short sighted to design a Stadium for Rangers with a capacity of 44,000.
Season 73/74, only four league games over 30,000.
Season 74/75, less than half the league attendance were over 30,000 and this was bolstered post New year when we were looking like winning the league.
Season 75-76 less than half the league attendances over 30,000.
Season 76-77 only six league attendances over 30,000, the six being the two games against Hibs, Hearts and Celtic.
Season 77-78 Only five league attendances over 30,000
Season 78-79 only three league attendances over 30,000.

By season 81-82, and this is post reconstruction, we got around half our games over 20,000.
The following year, I think it was only five or six got more than 20,000.
So if my 20,000 comment was a load of shite, surely that we, at the time of planning, when we were very seldom reaching over 40,000, showed a lack of vision, is, well, I‘ll just say nonsense.
(I won’t be so “neddish” with my posts)
 
John Lawrence had far too much influence on team matters. It was his decision that Forrest and McLean were dropped and subsequently sold, and his fawning over the scum the night before we played Bayern Munich in the CWC Final was a kick in the teeth for the players and manager who'd done so well to take us there. If Forrest and McLean, or even one of them (or Willoughby) had played in Nuremberg we'd probably have won that night and I doubt they'd have won the 9iar.

Lawrence is not a man I have a lot of affection for - I'll leave it at that!
Your spot on mate about Lawrence,to this day I believe he cost us in Munich when he got rid of the goal machine that was Jim Forrest just because he had an off day against Berwick,don't think that mob would have got there 9iar,after such a disastrous knee-jerk reaction after Berwick.
 
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Harold Davis book talks about Davie White being ahead of his time on the coaching side of the game, but needed a hard man beside him. Davis was his assistant at Dundee and they did well beating Jock Stein's mob in one of the cup finals. Davis also said Waddell played a part in what happened to White at Rangers.

I don't think Warburton was ahead of his time regarding football tactics and coaching.
When I talked about Warburton like White, they didn’t have a demeaning manner of strength.
 
I’m not disputing the fact that Celtic were a good side in those days and there’s an ongoing narrative about the brilliance of the much ballyhooed ‘67 Euro cup winning side.
There’s almost however a Parkhead style cover up of their defence of the trophy. It started in August ‘67, just a couple of months after the Lisbon final.
They were knocked out in the first round by a team who were themselves knocked out the second round.
Completely different contest back then.
Linfield reached the quarter finals in 67, also Dundee got to the semi finals a few years earlier.
 
Your spot on mate about Lawrence,to this day I believe he cost us in Munich when he got rid of the goal machine that was Jim Forrest just because he had an off day against Berwick,don't think that mob would have got there 9iar,after such a disastrous knee-jerk reaction after Berwick.


It says it all about him that he was always away on holiday in Morocco when it came time for the Scottish Cup Final. It's bad enough doing that nowadays with the internet, but back then there was no way of watching the game on TV abroad or even listening on the radio. He was out for his own self and was especially unhappy when Kelly at the scum got his knighthood soon after Lisbon and he was overlooked. He wasn't the last at the top out for himself unfortunately, as we know all too well.
 
David White was thrown in the deep end when the board was stuck for ideas, similar to what happened to John Greig after Jock Wallace left.Symon was finished and White became the first ever tracksuit manager at Ibrox. The task was just too big for him and he was stabbed in the back bye Waddell, who fancied the job. Waddell will go down in history for bringing us our first and only European trophy but by all accounts he was a bit of a bastard.
 
Following White's departure, in his biography of Jock Stein, Archie Macpherson suggests that that Rangers director David Hope sounded out Jock Stein to see if he was interested in 'coming home".
Stein by that time had moved well past his staunch Rangers background and had jumped the dyke with a great deal of bitterness towards his boyhood heroes, Rangers.
 
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