Duff and Duffer trial

mdingwall

Administrator
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buster60

Well-Known Member
What I don’t understand is the reason that they gave for charging these people. That reason I presume has to have been malicious but what exactly were they supposed to be guilty of?
Similar case almost to the Salmon one in some respect. Having the senior official of a so called independent prosecution system sitting in the Scottish cabinet with party politicians seems totally suspect.
Don't think we have heard the last of this by any means but the SNP will be doing everything they can to bury this.
 

flootbon

Well-Known Member
What were the alleged offences ? The article doesn't say

Why was the Crown determined to prosecute these guys ? I can't think it would be a pro-Rangers reason.

Was it because they helped Green to buy Ranger's assets ? In other words helped Rangers to continue.

I'm a bit lost with this, and the level of compensation.
 

okbear

Well-Known Member
If there is an enquiry, the parameters will be interesting in that, will it review the entire process from legal refusal of CVA, will it be limited to the investigation and arrest of Clark and Whitehouse only, or will it look at the whole saga?

This is where political pressure should be getting applied. Tragically we have seen them cherry pick organisations where alleged Child Sexual Abuse took place and who would be part of that investigation.

If the opposition parties are clever enough here, remove their green tinted glasses, then they could publicly highlight corruption of the current government and individuals in high profile positions.

It won’t change a single thing that’s happened on a football pitch since then.
 

johnkp

Well-Known Member
What were the alleged offences ? The article doesn't say

Why was the Crown determined to prosecute these guys ? I can't think it would be a pro-Rangers reason.

Was it because they helped Green to buy Ranger's assets ? In other words helped Rangers to continue.

I'm a bit lost with this, and the level of compensation.
Paul Whitehouse
Managing Director of the Manchester office of insolvency firm Duff & Phelps, at the time they acted as Rangers administrators from 14 Feb 2012.

Was initially charged that:
* Between January 1, 2010, and February 16, 2012, he committed fraud by conspiring to obtain a total of £28,262,094 from Merchant Turnaround and Ticketus,

* Between December 13, 2010 and January 31, 2012, he breached the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 by agreeing ‘to do something he knew or suspected, or ought reasonably to have known or suspected, would enable or further the commission of serious organised crime.’

* Between May 6, 2011 and March 19, 2012, he acted to make the club’s administration inevitable, so that Whyte could buy it back from the administrators debt-free,

* On July 16, 2012, he attempted to pervert the course of justice by submitting a false statement to Court of Session judge Lord Hodge.

* Between February 1 and December 31, 2012, he agreed ‘to do something he knew or suspected, or ought reasonably to have known or suspected, would enable or further the commission of serious organised crime.’

* Between January 1, 2011 and February 14, 2012, he breached the Proceeds of Crime Act, in that he ‘knew or suspected’ Whyte was involved in laundering the Ticketus money and failing to inform the authorities,

*Between February 14, 2012 and October 30, 2012, he - along with Whyte - fraudulently acquired Rangers for a sum below its true market value.

All but the last charge were deserted in Feb 2016. The last charge was deserted
pro loco et tempore, meaning the Procurator Fiscal could return to it at a later date.
 

The_Irrepressibles

Well-Known Member
You'd think this was all just a big scam all round. A lot of money to share around.

Scammers of club appoint scammer administrators who are charged completely negligently and incompetently to ensure compensation, by scammer prosecutors.

Sorry just thinking out loud for a book plot I was milling around, Irvine Welsh style you know? ;)
 

Coisty09

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
If there is an enquiry, the parameters will be interesting in that, will it review the entire process from legal refusal of CVA, will it be limited to the investigation and arrest of Clark and Whitehouse only, or will it look at the whole saga?

This is where political pressure should be getting applied. Tragically we have seen them cherry pick organisations where alleged Child Sexual Abuse took place and who would be part of that investigation.

If the opposition parties are clever enough here, remove their green tinted glasses, then they could publicly highlight corruption of the current government and individuals in high profile positions.

It won’t change a single thing that’s happened on a football pitch since then.
There is no way they’re allowing an inquiry into this as it would be far too explosive and reveal the rotten core of the Scottish diaspora
 

temperance

Well-Known Member
Paul Whitehouse
Managing Director of the Manchester office of insolvency firm Duff & Phelps, at the time they acted as Rangers administrators from 14 Feb 2012.

Was initially charged that:
* Between January 1, 2010, and February 16, 2012, he committed fraud by conspiring to obtain a total of £28,262,094 from Merchant Turnaround and Ticketus,

* Between December 13, 2010 and January 31, 2012, he breached the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 by agreeing ‘to do something he knew or suspected, or ought reasonably to have known or suspected, would enable or further the commission of serious organised crime.’

* Between May 6, 2011 and March 19, 2012, he acted to make the club’s administration inevitable, so that Whyte could buy it back from the administrators debt-free,

* On July 16, 2012, he attempted to pervert the course of justice by submitting a false statement to Court of Session judge Lord Hodge.

* Between February 1 and December 31, 2012, he agreed ‘to do something he knew or suspected, or ought reasonably to have known or suspected, would enable or further the commission of serious organised crime.’

* Between January 1, 2011 and February 14, 2012, he breached the Proceeds of Crime Act, in that he ‘knew or suspected’ Whyte was involved in laundering the Ticketus money and failing to inform the authorities,

*Between February 14, 2012 and October 30, 2012, he - along with Whyte - fraudulently acquired Rangers for a sum below its true market value.

All but the last charge were deserted in Feb 2016. The last charge was deserted
pro loco et tempore, meaning the Procurator Fiscal could return to it at a later date.
And in my humble opinion, guilty as charged, but I have as much evidence as the CPS.
 

Walters80

Well-Known Member
For me this whole mess primarily sits at the door of HMRC, this tax case farce has achieved absolutely nothing and in the end and left them and the public purse out of pocket.

Millions spent on court cases, Whyte withholding £9.5m and the money they are alleged to have turned down to settle the case originally all gone just for them to walk away with a few pence in the pound after over a decade.

The excuse that they pursued Rangers so that they could go after other clubs and companies has been shot to bits as well, in 3 years we've seen zero from them on that front.

They settled with Arsenal over EBT use years before our case as well but told Rangers they don't do deals?

The whole thing was nothing more than a total farce and the stupid amounts being paid out in compensation to the people at Duffy and Duffer is the icing on top of the cake.
 

rossgers

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
What were the alleged offences ? The article doesn't say

Why was the Crown determined to prosecute these guys ? I can't think it would be a pro-Rangers reason.

Was it because they helped Green to buy Ranger's assets ? In other words helped Rangers to continue.

I'm a bit lost with this, and the level of compensation.
Like most I'm confused what side I'm supposed to be on. The criminals who were involved in trying to kill our club or the criminals who prosecuted them/tried to fit them up/tried to kill our club.
 

jasbear

Active Member
What were the alleged offences ? The article doesn't say

Why was the Crown determined to prosecute these guys ? I can't think it would be a pro-Rangers reason.

Was it because they helped Green to buy Ranger's assets ? In other words helped Rangers to continue.

I'm a bit lost with this, and the level of compensation.
I'm the same Bud I can't work out why they went after them.
 

Angrybluebear

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Is there somebody that can summarise exactly what has went on and why and make it a sticky that can be updated and easy to follow ?

Is this all just a smoke screen for what went on with HMRC lying and overstepping the mark and then Mulholland and Wolffe tried to stick the boot in further ?

Wolffe seems a bit of a dobber, and who is he answerable to ? from last year

HOLYROOD’S Alex Salmond inquiry descended into farce today when the Scottish Government’s legal chief refused to give straight answers to MSPs.

Lord Advocate James Wolffe repeatedly stonewalled members of the special committee as they asked about legal advice to the government for its doomed 2019 court battle with the former First Minister


This resulted in Salmond getting something like £1/2million in legal expenses.

He was also asked to explain the missing evidence in the hanging effigies trial from Parkhead, he didn’t really.

Should Wolffe and Mulholland be looking at charges and jail time ?
 

Div1872

Well-Known Member
I believe Whitehouse is in court this week. Wednesday in Edinburgh

Wolffe is to make a public apology to him in court

Let’s see how this goes

Wolffe IMO should be investigated by an English based police force as PS are not impartial

Sturgeon is a dictator who is controlling the Crown Office with Wolffe and CC Livingstone at PS

It’s a disgrace the way Scotland is being governed

Crime, Corruption, Fraud, Perjury and it’s all being overlooked and swept under the carpet

It’s just like the trials in Glasgow for certain child abusers linked to a certain football team
 

magnus

Well-Known Member
I believe Whitehouse is in court this week. Wednesday in Edinburgh

Wolffe is to make a public apology to him in court

Let’s see how this goes

Wolffe IMO should be investigated by an English based police force as PS are not impartial

Sturgeon is a dictator who is controlling the Crown Office with Wolffe and CC Livingstone at PS

It’s a disgrace the way Scotland is being governed

Crime, Corruption, Fraud, Perjury and it’s all being overlooked and swept under the carpet

It’s just like the trials in Glasgow for certain child abusers linked to a certain football team
If you read the article on bottom right of post 18 Graeme Pearson a former Assistant Chief Constable and MSP suggests the police don’t have the authority to conduct such an enquiry as they report to the Crown Office. A senior judge would be required and how likely are they to criticise one of their peers?
 

yarrumdavid01

Well-Known Member
So let me get this right.

This all started with tax avoidance where it was originally legitimate with Murray offering to pay £10m. The taxman on behalf of the state (us) refused, increased the tax bill, never got paid then the crown working on behalf of the state (us) are to pay £100m.

So the gain in the state taking Rangers to the cleaners is minus £110 million and lost taxable revenue over 5 years minimum when we were rising through the leagues.

All in all it has cost a massive £150m to £200m and for what?

Absolute shambles from beginning to end.
 

Barca Bear

Well-Known Member
What were the alleged offences ? The article doesn't say

Why was the Crown determined to prosecute these guys ? I can't think it would be a pro-Rangers reason.

Was it because they helped Green to buy Ranger's assets ? In other words helped Rangers to continue.

I'm a bit lost with this, and the level of compensation.
Thanks for asking this.
I can’t fathom whether the crown were for or against us by pursuing this particular prosecution. Or it’s nothing to do with the club at all.
 

Barca Bear

Well-Known Member
For me this whole mess primarily sits at the door of HMRC, this tax case farce has achieved absolutely nothing and in the end and left them and the public purse out of pocket.

Millions spent on court cases, Whyte withholding £9.5m and the money they are alleged to have turned down to settle the case originally all gone just for them to walk away with a few pence in the pound after over a decade.

The excuse that they pursued Rangers so that they could go after other clubs and companies has been shot to bits as well, in 3 years we've seen zero from them on that front.

They settled with Arsenal over EBT use years before our case as well but told Rangers they don't do deals?

The whole thing was nothing more than a total farce and the stupid amounts being paid out in compensation to the people at Duffy and Duffer is the icing on top of the cake.
Could it be that Hmrc Scotland were taking the lead locally and that local agenda determined how this was going to pan out.
 

monkey magic

Well-Known Member
My own belief is that a group of individuals conspired to rape and ransack our club from the inside, with the stadium eventually to be sold off for housing and tens of millions for each involved to be received. There is, of course, no proof of that as no case ever came to trial, deliberately so.
 

Snakehips

Well-Known Member
My own belief is that a group of individuals conspired to rape and ransack our club from the inside, with the stadium eventually to be sold off for housing and tens of millions for each involved to be received. There is, of course, no proof of that as no case ever came to trial, deliberately so.
Dunno about the stadium/housing part.

Whyte’s intention was to clear the HMRC debt via admin (and liquidation if required), and end up up with a debt free club to sell on for a big profit. He brought in Duff and Phelps to facilitate this. He hooked up with Green to be the frontman for him as the new owner, but Green shafted him and cut him out of the deal.

Either way, the financial raping part is definitely correct.
 

monkey magic

Well-Known Member
Dunno about the stadium/housing part.

Whyte’s intention was to clear the HMRC debt via admin (and liquidation if required), and end up up with a debt free club to sell on for a big profit. He brought in Duff and Phelps to facilitate this. He hooked up with Green to be the frontman for him as the new owner, but Green shafted him and cut him out of the deal.

Either way, the financial raping part is definitely correct.

Every asset we owned would have been devoured by these hyenas, mate, even down the handles on the doors at Ibrox. They had no intention of selling the club on. They wanted us gone, forever.
 

Marty101

Well-Known Member
Every asset we owned would have been devoured by these hyenas, mate, even down the handles on the doors at Ibrox. They had no intention of selling the club on. They wanted us gone, forever.

D&P did the opposite of this and sold the club as a single entity.

They are now being pursued in the court of session by BDO for failing to do enough to realise the value of the assets for creditors, precisely because they didn't break it up and sell off the assets individually!
 

Northhiglander

Well-Known Member
I believe Whitehouse is in court this week. Wednesday in Edinburgh

Wolffe is to make a public apology to him in court

Let’s see how this goes

Wolffe IMO should be investigated by an English based police force as PS are not impartial

Sturgeon is a dictator who is controlling the Crown Office with Wolffe and CC Livingstone at PS

It’s a disgrace the way Scotland is being governed

Crime, Corruption, Fraud, Perjury and it’s all being overlooked and swept under the carpet

It’s just like the trials in Glasgow for certain child abusers linked to a certain football team
This is way more important part of the situation than our bit. This is about the relationshi[p between the state and its citizens and the protections we enjoy against excessive use of power by the state.

What we have here is two individuals who were pursued to by the state long after it was clear there was no evidence to go to trial. The state had a predetermined outcome it would appear. These guys had the money and connections to fight back and win. Not many people would. they would have to accept their fate.

It is wholly wrong that the state behaves in this manner. The legal system in Scotland has a separation of power between the police and the procurator. That is a key protection, the procurator should independently examine the evidence gathered buy the police and make a decision on prosecution. It is who wrong when these separations are blurred.

No one really cares when it is these two who we as fans have no time for anyway. Much the same failings happened over the Alec Salmond case, again not to many people that bothered. These are the high profile cases, people who had the resources to fight back. How many smaller people without the resources have had their lives ruined ? What next if they get another 4 years? Political opponents? We are descending towards a failed democracy. Any functioning democracy needs an independent legal system, a free press holding the executive to account, a political opposition holding the executive to account and police service free form political interference. We have none of these things.
 

Valley Bluenose

RTV? Completed it mate!
This is way more important part of the situation than our bit. This is about the relationshi[p between the state and its citizens and the protections we enjoy against excessive use of power by the state.

What we have here is two individuals who were pursued to by the state long after it was clear there was no evidence to go to trial. The state had a predetermined outcome it would appear. These guys had the money and connections to fight back and win. Not many people would. they would have to accept their fate.

It is wholly wrong that the state behaves in this manner. The legal system in Scotland has a separation of power between the police and the procurator. That is a key protection, the procurator should independently examine the evidence gathered buy the police and make a decision on prosecution. It is who wrong when these separations are blurred.

No one really cares when it is these two who we as fans have no time for anyway. Much the same failings happened over the Alec Salmond case, again not to many people that bothered. These are the high profile cases, people who had the resources to fight back. How many smaller people without the resources have had their lives ruined ? What next if they get another 4 years? Political opponents? We are descending towards a failed democracy. Any functioning democracy needs an independent legal system, a free press holding the executive to account, a political opposition holding the executive to account and police service free form political interference. We have none of these things.
Was it not the case that, in relation to some of them, they did have the evidence but it was rendered inadmissible due to the clusterf*ck in seizing said evidence (they basically impounded items that had nothing to do with the Rangers case but by doing so they rendered the evidence they did need inadmissible)?
 

Marty101

Well-Known Member
Was it not the case that, in relation to some of them, they did have the evidence but it was rendered inadmissible due to the clusterf*ck in seizing said evidence (they basically impounded items that had nothing to do with the Rangers case but by doing so they rendered the evidence they did need inadmissible)?

In Withey's case, the Crown not only unlawfully recovered and accessed confidential information but went ahead and distributed it as part of the disclosure to his co-accused. That basically ended any chance there was Withey could have a fair trial, and was why the charges against him had to fall.

I'm not sure about Grier, but the other D&P two at least got an injunction in the English courts as regards the confidential files obtained from their solicitors, so the unlawfully obtained information was never actually unlawfully accessed/used in their case as far as I know.
 

Valley Bluenose

RTV? Completed it mate!
In Withey's case, the Crown not only unlawfully recovered and accessed confidential information but went ahead and distributed it as part of the disclosure to his co-accused. That basically ended any chance there was Withey could have a fair trial, and was why the charges against him had to fall.

I'm not sure about Grier, but the other D&P two at least got an injunction in the English courts as regards the confidential files obtained from their solicitors, so the unlawfully obtained information was never actually unlawfully accessed/used in their case as far as I know.
I knew there was something nagging in my head. It was the raid on CollyerBristow offices that turned into a clusterf*ck wasn't it? Remember now. Thanks @Marty101
 

GREGRFC

Well-Known Member
Was it not the case that, in relation to some of them, they did have the evidence but it was rendered inadmissible due to the clusterf*ck in seizing said evidence (they basically impounded items that had nothing to do with the Rangers case but by doing so they rendered the evidence they did need inadmissible)?

Yeah. Don’t know the ins and out but some of the evidence obtained was seized under warrants that didn’t specifically cover the items seized. Police sought advice from COPFS and were advised the warrant(s) sufficiently covered the seizure of whatever it was. That was then raised in court, COPFS were found to be wrong in that advice and whatever was seized “unlawfully” was deemed inadmissible.

A similar example would be if police have a warrant to search somewhere for drugs and they find a firearm during the search they often need another warrant to seize the firearm despite it being obviously illegal.

EDIT: Marty has covered it better than I have.
 

jicrw

Well-Known Member
Paul Whitehouse
Managing Director of the Manchester office of insolvency firm Duff & Phelps, at the time they acted as Rangers administrators from 14 Feb 2012.

Was initially charged that:
* Between January 1, 2010, and February 16, 2012, he committed fraud by conspiring to obtain a total of £28,262,094 from Merchant Turnaround and Ticketus,

* Between December 13, 2010 and January 31, 2012, he breached the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 by agreeing ‘to do something he knew or suspected, or ought reasonably to have known or suspected, would enable or further the commission of serious organised crime.’

* Between May 6, 2011 and March 19, 2012, he acted to make the club’s administration inevitable, so that Whyte could buy it back from the administrators debt-free,

* On July 16, 2012, he attempted to pervert the course of justice by submitting a false statement to Court of Session judge Lord Hodge.

* Between February 1 and December 31, 2012, he agreed ‘to do something he knew or suspected, or ought reasonably to have known or suspected, would enable or further the commission of serious organised crime.’

* Between January 1, 2011 and February 14, 2012, he breached the Proceeds of Crime Act, in that he ‘knew or suspected’ Whyte was involved in laundering the Ticketus money and failing to inform the authorities,

*Between February 14, 2012 and October 30, 2012, he - along with Whyte - fraudulently acquired Rangers for a sum below its true market value.

All but the last charge were deserted in Feb 2016. The last charge was deserted
pro loco et tempore, meaning the Procurator Fiscal could return to it at a later date.


I thought, acting with others, he/they DID do, all of these things LOL.

PS: Regards Charge 1. Have Ticketus been re-paid yet?

PPS; Google No Good!
 
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Northhiglander

Well-Known Member
Was it not the case that, in relation to some of them, they did have the evidence but it was rendered inadmissible due to the clusterf*ck in seizing said evidence (they basically impounded items that had nothing to do with the Rangers case but by doing so they rendered the evidence they did need inadmissible)?
Certainly the investigation was botched very badly. However the judge was quite clear the evidence was never put to the procurator that justified the charges.

if that is the case then how did this get to court. It is a really important question and would appear to have parallels to the Salmond case.

One botched prosecution Is maybe explained away, two with similar failings raises serious questions. Both cases the individuals had access to the means to fight back. Are there others who didn’t abs just had to accept this?

This about what kind of country we want to be. A free judiciary is a fundamental freedom. We can’t accept that being compromised. The Lord Advocate being dragged to court to publicly apologise and explain is a serious situation.

Something smells here like a week old bag if fish.
 

Valley Bluenose

RTV? Completed it mate!
Certainly the investigation was botched very badly. However the judge was quite clear the evidence was never put to the procurator that justified the charges.

if that is the case then how did this get to court. It is a really important question and would appear to have parallels to the Salmond case.

One botched prosecution Is maybe explained away, two with similar failings raises serious questions. Both cases the individuals had access to the means to fight back. Are there others who didn’t abs just had to accept this?

This about what kind of country we want to be. A free judiciary is a fundamental freedom. We can’t accept that being compromised. The Lord Advocate being dragged to court to publicly apologise and explain is a serious situation.

Something smells here like a week old bag if fish.
See post #37, it was the Withey case I was thinking of and, quite clearly, the evidence was gathered but in an illegal manner, rendering it inadmissible.
 

Bluechip

Well-Known Member
For me this whole mess primarily sits at the door of HMRC, this tax case farce has achieved absolutely nothing and in the end and left them and the public purse out of pocket.

Millions spent on court cases, Whyte withholding £9.5m and the money they are alleged to have turned down to settle the case originally all gone just for them to walk away with a few pence in the pound after over a decade.

The excuse that they pursued Rangers so that they could go after other clubs and companies has been shot to bits as well, in 3 years we've seen zero from them on that front.

They settled with Arsenal over EBT use years before our case as well but told Rangers they don't do deals?

The whole thing was nothing more than a total farce and the stupid amounts being paid out in compensation to the people at Duffy and Duffer is the icing on top of the cake.
I give you Doctor John Reid, "I want these bastards nailed to the floor".

Nay luck ya wee prick, cost the taxpayers millions though, people who can't really afford it.

Corruption? Yes, but more Sectarian imo.
 

RoofeIsOnFire

Well-Known Member
And in my humble opinion, guilty as charged, but I have as much evidence as the CPS.
I think potentially thats what the case is around that its what the CPS suspected but pushed ahead with charges without sufficient evidence.

I thought it was unveiled at the time of these charges the meetings Whyte had already had with Duff and Phelps before taking us over but might be getting that wrong
 

daven37

Well-Known Member
So let me get this right.

This all started with tax avoidance where it was originally legitimate with Murray offering to pay £10m. The taxman on behalf of the state (us) refused, increased the tax bill, never got paid then the crown working on behalf of the state (us) are to pay £100m.

So the gain in the state taking Rangers to the cleaners is minus £110 million and lost taxable revenue over 5 years minimum when we were rising through the leagues.

All in all it has cost a massive £150m to £200m and for what?

Absolute shambles from beginning to end.
And this is where I want answers - why did HMRC go after us they way they did? Someone inside with an agenda was working this. That 100m tax bill has been steadily decreasing and found out to be false - is that right?

What was the motivation of the CPS and PS in charging Whitehouse, Clark, Whyte and Green?

We (Rangers supporters) were wanting justice as we believe we had been wronged so initially supported the crown charges of above.

There are people out there who think all of the above came up with a scheme to remove Rangers alleged 100m tax bill without paying a penny and we come out the other end debt free and club in tact. Is there a possibility the authorities in Scotland are of the same thinking?

The jury is still out on Clark and Whitehouse as far as I am concerned. I believe Whyte, Green, HMRC and those around them have wronged us and there are individuals in the crown and police Scotland who also need brought to justice. I think there are others hidden in the shadows who have had a big hand in this.

Murray also wronged us but my extremely untrained eye doesn't see anything illegal from his side - he is just a coward.

I don't know - this is a fxxk up from beginning to end.
 
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