Dutch 433 vs ours

AriseSirWalter

AriseSirWalter

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Have been thinking about the differences between our '433' and PSV/Feyenoord's who I thought were very similar. The Dutch seem much better than us at stretching the play when attacking, is that fair assessment? If so, why do we think that is? I've put 433 in quotes for us as we don't stick to that but I think we will see more of it this season with Tillman/Lawrence in the middle and Kent/Matondo as wingers.

I'd say technical ability of the players is a big factor, being more comfortable on the ball means they can move it more quickly without taking an extra touch/pass that I think we do too often.

Also, how they position their players, when they were building the play from the back, it seemed that they had 5/6 genuine short passing options until they got to the final third whereas we probably have 2/3 before we have to think about a longer, riskier pass or a sideways ineffectual pass that doesn't get us forward. I'd say we are good (better than we were) at building triangles in between keeper, CHs and DCM but once we get into midfield it breaks down a bit. There was one point when they were attacking down our right hand side in the first half where it seemed to go form keeper -> LCH -> LB -> LCM then out to the their left winger who got past Tav and was right on the edge of our box within maybe 10s of the keeper having the ball. Each pass was, maybe 15 yards, on the deck and they zig-zagged the ball right through our team.

Also in the second half when they were having the better of it, we dropped back to a back 4 with FBs pretty much in line with CHs, and De Jong was no where near any of our back 4. He was in midfield with the wingers allowing them to overrun us in midfield - this might be where we miss Bassey as he was comfortable following strikers into midfield but I think we'd be wary of leaving a gap for one of their wingers/midfield to attack.

The bit of play that impressed me the most was this one however....

They knock it about on our left side with 3 of their players in high and wide positions forcing us to have a bunch of players out left, it gets played into their number 11 who is central, he plays it back to midfielder who is 50 yards from goal he shapes as if to play it wide. As we've been dragged out to our left, Tav and Wright automatically start moving out wide because of the space we've left and the PSV players body shape but the guy slides it inside both and they're one on one with McLaughlin. If the guy cuts it back to the #11 on the edge of the box it'd have been a gorgeous goal but thankfully he picked the wrong option. This is something that I have been banging on about us doing, overloading one side trying to drag the team over to that side then releasing it quickly to someone on the opposite side but like this rather than a switch of play.

I don't watch Dutch football so not sure if PSV/Ajax would come up against the park the bus attitude we get. Went to a Ajax game while in Amsterdam years ago and it was a team I'd never heard of before but they had a go at them.

We should be looking to learn from the Dutch and how they create space, and work well as an attacking system. I was more impressed by Feyenoord than PSV actually but Feyenoord seemed a bit more naive and Morelos was on fire away from home, expect PSV will be a tougher ask.
 
For me it’s no so much how we set up but more down to technique, they were a fair bit better and it makes a world of difference when pressed
 
Technique and play that way from a young age. Flexible and comfortable to move into a different positions. One touch, two touch maximum and most are two footed to a high level. Makes all the difference. Think over the years the three in the middle has become a little deeper or more adaptable.
 
Technique plays a big part in it. Sands isn’t comfortable on his left foot so came back inside or square to goldson encouraging psv on. Same with barisic wanting it on his left foot. The way tav goes forward means a midfielder has to cover so limits midfield dominance when attacking.
 
Although Davis did have a good game I felt that not having Kamara meant we didn't have control in midfield, he's crucial in Europe. We didn't impose ourselves in the middle of the park particularly in that second half and allowed them possession that we didn't give teams that are better than them last year.

We weren't as confident coming out from the back either..I didn't feel they were better in terms of their players and formation, I just felt we were a man short in midfield..

Away leg will suit us as we break with serious pace and quality and I expect us to score.
 
I didn’t see too much dissimilarity in the sides playing from the back.
I’d imagine their fans are trained not to have kittens when the GK rolls it to the Midfield :eek:
 
Thechemist said:
Technique plays a big part in it. Sands isn’t comfortable on his left foot so came back inside or square to goldson encouraging psv on. Same with barisic wanting it on his left foot. The way tav goes forward means a midfielder has to cover so limits midfield dominance when attacking.
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Sands had the best pass completion in the game and Barisic was outstanding 1st half!
We focus on the errors and rightly so but sometimes it’s over emphasised.
We are a good team, they are a good team
 
DennistounGer said:
Our midfield found it very difficult to find space to take the ball from our defence who were again resorted to passing it, slowly, between themselves.
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I agree with this to an extent but I think it’s a massive issue with our team.

Our midfield did struggle at times, and they far too often fall into the habit of passing the ball sideways and backwards even in domestic games.

When PSV scored the opener on Tuesday it was almost like the pressure was lifted off our midfielders and they allowed themselves to start playing. Davis and Lundstram for the last 20 minutes in the first half were outstanding, always looking to pass it forward even if it was a risky pass.

In the second half though, they came out and started with the sideways and backwards stuff which just doesn’t suit us at all.
 
I remember thinking they had Kent sussed but over all they aren't much better than we are so we can do this.
 
If we take the Eredivisie league and compare it to our SPFL, the average player in their league is several levels above the average player in our league in terms of overall technique, positional game awareness etc. AZ Alkmaar absolutely tore apart our 4th best team in the league last season and the much esteemed coaching skills of Jack Dross were laid bare before everyone’s eyes last week despite our poodle Scottish media still saying different. I thought we equipped ourselves very well against PSV on Tuesday night despite being handicapped in a poor quality league as ours where nearly all the opposition teams play anti football tactics every single time against us. It was a breath of fresh air to watch a team like PSV play football against us and Rangers as a club in Scotland are the sole exception when it comes to competing in Europe. Long may it continue.
 
You need a very strong pool of players, obvs, to play such a disciplined tactical approach. Not just technically gifted but mental strong and full of confidence.

I read a book on the origins of Total Football a while back and the genesis principle is simply that each player is capable of receiving and using the ball effectively in any area of the pitch. So while they have their set position and role, ultimately there is a strong overarching control of the ball wherever it is and crucially never any panic.

That kind of mentality can only be forged over time and from an early age which is something badly lacking in Youth Coaching here.
 
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OP answers his own question in his second paragraph and I agree with him.

I noticed in their two games in Monaco that they played an almost identical style to us. They are just able to do it a bit quicker. I don't think they are far ahead of us, and we definitely have an advantage in certain positions.

I still think we can win the tie but I think we have to be at our best and PSV have to be just a little bit off. Not a lot, just a wee bit.
 
Euro Scooter said:
OP answers his own question in his second paragraph and I agree with him.

I noticed in their two games in Monaco that they played an almost identical style to us. They are just able to do it a bit quicker. I don't think they are far ahead of us, and we definitely have an advantage in certain positions.

I still think we can win the tie but I think we have to be at our best and PSV have to be just a little bit off. Not a lot, just a wee bit.
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The main difference is the starting position of the midfielders and the trust given to the centre halves to play the ball out of defence.

Too often we see our centre mids dropping deep, either between the centre halves or right on the toes of the centre half, to receive the ball. It leave us light in the middle of the park and forces us to wide more often than not.

The PSV midfielders were receiving the ball from their centre backs much higher up the pitch and were even taking it whilst being pressed at times. They were always on the half turn when receiving the pass which would allow them to turn out of trouble or pop the ball straight back if the press was effective.
 
Spoke about this before in terms of development and the level of coaching the players receive in Netherlands.

Moved here about 4 years ago and My son is fortunate enough to be in the Ajax academy - under 12s now, and the amount of time spent on training and development is night and day compared to what he would be doing in Scotland.

There is at a minimum 3 dedicated training sessions a week focusing on team and technical development, in addition to specialist clinics where you can work on free-kicks, crossing, finishing etc and video / tactics briefings where they learn about different systems and tactics.

The training sessions themselves are a sight to behold, the speed of movement and touch is incredible and every player is comfortable on the ball - from the GK to the striker. There is also less 11 v 11 games, more focus on smaller games (7s) on half pitches that encourage quick passing and movement.

He might make it here or not but I’m confident that if he continues to work hard and can stay in the academy as long as possible then he will be all the better for it and likely carve out an opportunity somewhere.
 
They play in a very technical league and it shows, we were good on Tuesday, but we need to be better on Wednesday.
 
They play in a better league and that helps, but I don't think there is a great deal between the teams.
I think whoever makes the group stages will perform similarly.
 
The best bit of passing and moving the whole night was our first goal tbh.

They had some nice moves but nothing miles beyond us. They had 45% possession, nearly 100 less passes than us and 79% passing accuracy to our 84%.

I thought they played hoofball to De Jong quite often.
 
We are a match for PSV. The things that could really help us improve overall is better movement especially coming inside to create space out wide, later intelligent runs into the box like Arfield produces more often and a bit more physicality in some one on one battles.

For the money we cost to put together we really are one of the great value teams in Europe last few years and it was only minor differences the other night. Nothing much between both teams.
 
What they and better quality teams tend to do well is play more precise one touch football whereas we seem to want to take that extra touch and in doing so give the opposition more time to defend.

Funnily enough the one occasion we moved the ball at pace on Tuesday night with one touch passes, we scored.

I’d like to see us produce that a lot more, but maybe it just comes down to quality or a lack of.
 
AriseSirWalter said:
Have been thinking about the differences between our '433' and PSV/Feyenoord's who I thought were very similar. The Dutch seem much better than us at stretching the play when attacking, is that fair assessment? If so, why do we think that is? I've put 433 in quotes for us as we don't stick to that but I think we will see more of it this season with Tillman/Lawrence in the middle and Kent/Matondo as wingers.

I'd say technical ability of the players is a big factor, being more comfortable on the ball means they can move it more quickly without taking an extra touch/pass that I think we do too often.

Also, how they position their players, when they were building the play from the back, it seemed that they had 5/6 genuine short passing options until they got to the final third whereas we probably have 2/3 before we have to think about a longer, riskier pass or a sideways ineffectual pass that doesn't get us forward. I'd say we are good (better than we were) at building triangles in between keeper, CHs and DCM but once we get into midfield it breaks down a bit. There was one point when they were attacking down our right hand side in the first half where it seemed to go form keeper -> LCH -> LB -> LCM then out to the their left winger who got past Tav and was right on the edge of our box within maybe 10s of the keeper having the ball. Each pass was, maybe 15 yards, on the deck and they zig-zagged the ball right through our team.

Also in the second half when they were having the better of it, we dropped back to a back 4 with FBs pretty much in line with CHs, and De Jong was no where near any of our back 4. He was in midfield with the wingers allowing them to overrun us in midfield - this might be where we miss Bassey as he was comfortable following strikers into midfield but I think we'd be wary of leaving a gap for one of their wingers/midfield to attack.

The bit of play that impressed me the most was this one however....

They knock it about on our left side with 3 of their players in high and wide positions forcing us to have a bunch of players out left, it gets played into their number 11 who is central, he plays it back to midfielder who is 50 yards from goal he shapes as if to play it wide. As we've been dragged out to our left, Tav and Wright automatically start moving out wide because of the space we've left and the PSV players body shape but the guy slides it inside both and they're one on one with McLaughlin. If the guy cuts it back to the #11 on the edge of the box it'd have been a gorgeous goal but thankfully he picked the wrong option. This is something that I have been banging on about us doing, overloading one side trying to drag the team over to that side then releasing it quickly to someone on the opposite side but like this rather than a switch of play.

I don't watch Dutch football so not sure if PSV/Ajax would come up against the park the bus attitude we get. Went to a Ajax game while in Amsterdam years ago and it was a team I'd never heard of before but they had a go at them.

We should be looking to learn from the Dutch and how they create space, and work well as an attacking system. I was more impressed by Feyenoord than PSV actually but Feyenoord seemed a bit more naive and Morelos was on fire away from home,
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Chester Loyal said:
The main difference is the starting position of the midfielders and the trust given to the centre halves to play the ball out of defence.

Too often we see our centre mids dropping deep, either between the centre halves or right on the toes of the centre half, to receive the ball. It leave us light in the middle of the park and forces us to wide more often than not.

The PSV midfielders were receiving the ball from their centre backs much higher up the pitch and were even taking it whilst being pressed at times. They were always on the half turn when receiving the pass which would allow them to turn out of trouble or pop the ball straight back if the press was effective.
Click to expand...
Agree with this. Until we as team trust each other to receive the ball under pressure and not panic , I feel the slow, safe sideways passing is here for the foreseeable future. I do feel sorry for our defense sometimes when they look for a pass forward and Lundstrum and Jack are not demanding or showing for the ball. This is the same for Borna.
Think Gio needs to play Kamara as the CM who can receive ball on half turn . Also agree that CM is to deep when getting the ball , would like to see CHs step into space and then play pass through the lines . Although I would say Goldson is not the best at this. I feel if we can get the speed of our passing and tempo of the game increased then we have players who can hurt PSV.
During the game I thought the RB for PSV was a good player and very physical ( similar to Bassey) and Kent struggled to get by him on outside. Do we think he should change wings and see if he has any joy against LB?
 
The key is midfield. Gio will have analysed the 2nd half from las Tuesday and discussed the options for mid-week. We have to nullify them in midfield and hit on the break.
 
AriseSirWalter said:
Have been thinking about the differences between our '433' and PSV/Feyenoord's who I thought were very similar. The Dutch seem much better than us at stretching the play when attacking, is that fair assessment? If so, why do we think that is? I've put 433 in quotes for us as we don't stick to that but I think we will see more of it this season with Tillman/Lawrence in the middle and Kent/Matondo as wingers.

I'd say technical ability of the players is a big factor, being more comfortable on the ball means they can move it more quickly without taking an extra touch/pass that I think we do too often.

Also, how they position their players, when they were building the play from the back, it seemed that they had 5/6 genuine short passing options until they got to the final third whereas we probably have 2/3 before we have to think about a longer, riskier pass or a sideways ineffectual pass that doesn't get us forward. I'd say we are good (better than we were) at building triangles in between keeper, CHs and DCM but once we get into midfield it breaks down a bit. There was one point when they were attacking down our right hand side in the first half where it seemed to go form keeper -> LCH -> LB -> LCM then out to the their left winger who got past Tav and was right on the edge of our box within maybe 10s of the keeper having the ball. Each pass was, maybe 15 yards, on the deck and they zig-zagged the ball right through our team.

Also in the second half when they were having the better of it, we dropped back to a back 4 with FBs pretty much in line with CHs, and De Jong was no where near any of our back 4. He was in midfield with the wingers allowing them to overrun us in midfield - this might be where we miss Bassey as he was comfortable following strikers into midfield but I think we'd be wary of leaving a gap for one of their wingers/midfield to attack.

The bit of play that impressed me the most was this one however....

They knock it about on our left side with 3 of their players in high and wide positions forcing us to have a bunch of players out left, it gets played into their number 11 who is central, he plays it back to midfielder who is 50 yards from goal he shapes as if to play it wide. As we've been dragged out to our left, Tav and Wright automatically start moving out wide because of the space we've left and the PSV players body shape but the guy slides it inside both and they're one on one with McLaughlin. If the guy cuts it back to the #11 on the edge of the box it'd have been a gorgeous goal but thankfully he picked the wrong option. This is something that I have been banging on about us doing, overloading one side trying to drag the team over to that side then releasing it quickly to someone on the opposite side but like this rather than a switch of play.

I don't watch Dutch football so not sure if PSV/Ajax would come up against the park the bus attitude we get. Went to a Ajax game while in Amsterdam years ago and it was a team I'd never heard of before but they had a go at them.

We should be looking to learn from the Dutch and how they create space, and work well as an attacking system. I was more impressed by Feyenoord than PSV actually but Feyenoord seemed a bit more naive and Morelos was on fire away from home, expect PSV will be a tougher ask.
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And I thought football was a simple game
 
albert_left_peg said:
Spoke about this before in terms of development and the level of coaching the players receive in Netherlands.

Moved here about 4 years ago and My son is fortunate enough to be in the Ajax academy - under 12s now, and the amount of time spent on training and development is night and day compared to what he would be doing in Scotland.

There is at a minimum 3 dedicated training sessions a week focusing on team and technical development, in addition to specialist clinics where you can work on free-kicks, crossing, finishing etc and video / tactics briefings where they learn about different systems and tactics.

The training sessions themselves are a sight to behold, the speed of movement and touch is incredible and every player is comfortable on the ball - from the GK to the striker. There is also less 11 v 11 games, more focus on smaller games (7s) on half pitches that encourage quick passing and movement.

He might make it here or not but I’m confident that if he continues to work hard and can stay in the academy as long as possible then he will be all the better for it and likely carve out an opportunity somewhere.
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Interesting read. How long are the sessions? Also would like to know are the coaches bothered about winning games ? My son is same age and plays for boys club team. Not an academy team. However the skill set and techniques you describe are what I think they are missing. From my own experience I thought that the coaching in youth football was meant to different from when I was young, and from maybe 5-8 it is. But once the kids get older it seems that the coaches become obsessed with winning . From my own experience my sons coaches are obsessed with fitness which I feel isn’t an issue . Where as shape in and out of possession, passing , first touch and finding space would be the better fundamentals to be coached .
 
cooperman said:
For me it’s no so much how we set up but more down to technique, they were a fair bit better and it makes a world of difference when pressed
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I'd say that mostly the Dutch come up against teams wanting to play football.
Our problem is going from an open game, where we are punching above our weight, to then face an 11 man defence makes it difficult for us.
 
I played in a Dutch Under 16 youth tournament years ago. We played Irish, Welsh and English teams in the early rounds and easily beat them all. Was all about the battle, winning the ball and being aggressive. We then played a Dutch team in the final and we were basically chasing the ball the full game. Was very impressive, even at that age. The technical ability was just streets ahead. All about the coaching from an early age.
 
Outlaw Pete said:
Agree with this. Until we as team trust each other to receive the ball under pressure and not panic , I feel the slow, safe sideways passing is here for the foreseeable future. I do feel sorry for our defense sometimes when they look for a pass forward and Lundstrum and Jack are not demanding or showing for the ball. This is the same for Borna.
Think Gio needs to play Kamara as the CM who can receive ball on half turn . Also agree that CM is to deep when getting the ball , would like to see CHs step into space and then play pass through the lines . Although I would say Goldson is not the best at this. I feel if we can get the speed of our passing and tempo of the game increased then we have players who can hurt PSV.
During the game I thought the RB for PSV was a good player and very physical ( similar to Bassey) and Kent struggled to get by him on outside. Do we think he should change wings and see if he has any joy against LB?
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I hate to keep coming back to it but, this is where I feel we still lack a player of real quality.

Tillman, great talent that he appears to be, is only 20 and inexperienced at this level. He’ll inevitably make mistakes as we saw on Tuesday.

Conversely, Lawrence has a lot more experience but most of it has been in the English second tier so again this is a step up for him too, and at 28, realistically he’s probably as good as he’s going to be.

Both of them did some nice things on Tuesday, but I couldn’t help feeling that we really needed someone of even better quality to attack space in the middle of the park in getting up in support of the forwards and it’s a player I feel we’ve been crying out for for three or four years.
 
I thought we were decent first half as Davis was still fresh and could control the midfield with Lundstram, second half Davis was tired as he hadn't had many games and for a while, we looked lost.
The goal saved us for a bit but they looked a bit fitter and stronger than us during certain parts of the game.
 
HandsomeHead said:
I hate to keep coming back to it but, this is where I feel we still lack a player of real quality.

Tillman, great talent that he appears to be, is only 20 and inexperienced at this level. He’ll inevitably make mistakes as we saw on Tuesday.

Conversely, Lawrence has a lot more experience but most of it has been in the English second tier so again this is a step up for him too, and at 28, realistically he’s probably as good as he’s going to be.

Both of them did some nice things on Tuesday, but I couldn’t help feeling that we really needed someone of even better quality to attack space in the middle of the park in getting up in support of the forwards and it’s a player I feel we’ve been crying out for for three or four years.
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Have to say I agree with that. For me it’s the league we play in and finances available to us. If anything we should be even more proud of the European record of last 4 years and realise how much our performances under both SG and Gio are remarkable given our limitations in domestic league and finances available .
It would also be good to see say a Lowry play in these games to see if our youth coaching is at the level we think it needs to be at for Europe. First half against PSV , Davies was our best midfielder. Domestically Arfield is coming off the bench and making a difference with late tuns and getting beyond defence. Both these players are not the future but on there day have a lot to give to the team. It concerns me that we still haven’t found a replacement for Arfield .
I expect PSV to press us from the start next week and this is where we need to concentrate and when we get the ball be brave and play through the lines . Most important is though, if we go a goal down is not to capitulate , like OF game or Hibs semi final. Stay in the game. Do you’s think we will ever see Alfie and Colak in the same team?
 
DennistounGer said:
Our midfield found it very difficult to find space to take the ball from our defence who were again resorted to passing it, slowly, between themselves.
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The Dutch used to have a saying that became prominent in their “total football” philosophy that they seem to still practice greatly.
“Make the pitch as big as possible when in possession and as small as possible when not.”
This doesn’t usually mean cramming five, six or seven players into a ten square metre space. They also have player mid-wide on the other side covering a quick switch of play.
Their opposition need to be very technical and able to play short to mid range passes very quickly to get out of their press.
(Forgive my terminologies as I’m not fully up to speed with modern jargon but the point is the same.)
 
albert_left_peg said:
Spoke about this before in terms of development and the level of coaching the players receive in Netherlands.

Moved here about 4 years ago and My son is fortunate enough to be in the Ajax academy - under 12s now, and the amount of time spent on training and development is night and day compared to what he would be doing in Scotland.

There is at a minimum 3 dedicated training sessions a week focusing on team and technical development, in addition to specialist clinics where you can work on free-kicks, crossing, finishing etc and video / tactics briefings where they learn about different systems and tactics.

The training sessions themselves are a sight to behold, the speed of movement and touch is incredible and every player is comfortable on the ball - from the GK to the striker. There is also less 11 v 11 games, more focus on smaller games (7s) on half pitches that encourage quick passing and movement.

He might make it here or not but I’m confident that if he continues to work hard and can stay in the academy as long as possible then he will be all the better for it and likely carve out an opportunity somewhere.
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I look forward to having Left Peg Jnr on the back of my grandsons Rangers top in the future!
Joking aside, your boy will have the best football education he could possibly have at Ajax, their youth coaches and how they coach is as good as it gets. Best of British to you and yours @Albertz Left Peg
 
My big gripe is our lack of passing patterns when trying to create going forward. We are too static & slow generally relying far too much on the additional pass between the defence before skipping out the midfield to go long.

It was a big difference to PSV who did the same thing numourous times between midfield & the wide positions involving quick interchanging passing & movement. These are things which will be practiced time & time again on the training pitch. Of course technique, speed, movement & game intelligence all come into play
 
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