Dutch FA to pilot woman playing in men’s teams

MurtyMania said:
No reason that can't change though.
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Apart from the obvious fact that physically, there are very few women who have the strength to compete with elite male athletes. Increase the interest and investment in women's football by all means but football is one of many sports where women wouldn't cut it with they men.
 
If you're good enough, you're good enough.

But the reality is that the standard of women's football is WAYYYYY behind mens.
 
CF3 Bear said:
Tbh I think there are various sports which should be mixed. Golf, snooker, darts etc which are not reliant on physicality. Sports like football which require an all round athlete are ones which women just cannot compete. Physicality, speed, endurance and skill ALL have to be on point. Women could maybe match 1 or 2 of those but not all 4.
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I take your point but go look at how Rhian Evans and Ong Yee do trying to qualify for men's Snooker. Pereniall winner of everything in women's snooker, world titles only those two really. Consistently get their ass handed to them in qualifying tournaments.
 
MurtyMania said:
You need to cool down a wee bit.

No one is saying this will or won't happen. All we are saying is that it is possible one day.
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But its not.

My career is physically preparing athletes for elite sport.

If your career was finance and someone was talking absolute shi.t about that on here you would challenge them too.

I happen to be incredibly well versed in this area (not that you need to be, to point out the error of your thinking) and there is a landslide of evidence that says you are talking mince.

I have worked with elite athletes across numerous sports developing them for World Champs, Olympics. There is a reason why we divide the sexes in sport. Women's footballers will never be competitive in the mens game and no amount of you denying objective evidence will make it so.

Cowering behind "my opinion" when there are other, objective, science based, more informed "opinions" is nonsense. You are categorically wrong.
 
MurtyMania said:
You need to cool down a wee bit.

No one is saying this will or won't happen. All we are saying is that it is possible one day.
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One more thing. "We" are saying. No "you" are saying. No one else believes black is white, up is down when it comes to this.
 
Davie Weir said:
THE DUTCH FOOTBALL Association announced a pioneering scheme on Tuesday, allowing a woman to play competitively at a men's team in the country's ninth tier in the hope of greater womens' participation in the men's game in future.


Ellen Fokkema, 19, is the first player to participate in the pilot and will play for VV Foarut's first team.

Girls and young women are able to play Category A mixed football up to under-19 level but after that have to play with Category B teams.


"It's fantastic that I can continue to play in this team," Fokkema said in a statement.


"I've been playing with these guys since I was five and I was sorry that I wouldn't be able to play with them in a team next year.


"From the KNVB [Dutch FA] I was always advised to continue playing with the boys for as long as possible, so why shouldn't it be possible? It is quite a challenge, but that only excites me more.


"I asked the club if something was possible and together we submitted the request to the KNVB. My teammates also reacted enthusiastically that I can stay with them. I can't say how it will go, but I am very happy anyway that I can participate in this pilot. "


The Dutch FA said they will monitor the progress of the pilot and should it be successful, look at permanently changing the regulations to allow women to play alongside men.


"Every year there is a request from an association to let a woman play football in their first men's team," director of football development at the KNVB Art Langeler said.


"In my opinion it is special that girls at all levels can play mixed football, but as soon as boys move on from under-19 to Category A of the men, they have to play football without the woman in their team.


"The KNVB stands for diversity and equality. We believe that there should be room for everyone in every way."


Women's football was first recognised in the Netherlands in 1971 while mixed football was introduced in 1986.
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Even the best womens’ player in the world would struggle to get into a top level men’s team. It’s simply due to physicality. To be fair, I’m not against it happening, but it’s just not going to happen on merit any time soon.
 
MurtyMania said:
No.

With regards to elite athletes, in track competitions women compare to men as follows:
Top Speed: Women are about 90% as fast as men (100m, 200m, 400m)
Stamina: Again, about 90% (800m, 1500m etc)
Explosiveness: Women about 85% as explosive as men (Long Jump, High Jump, Triple Jump)

There aren't really many events that I can think of that would measure agility.

So ultimately, there's a gap to make up there. But the question is how far down the food chain do you have to go before that 10 - 15% difference is either eliminated or irrelevant? In football, probably not as far down as you think - there are plenty of ways to tactically hide physical shortcomings in football.
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I used to play 7s with a lassie who is a current Ireland international, ex Arsenal, Glasgow City, Celtic etc. Basically playing at the highest level of women's football.

She was decent enough but there were guys who didn't even play amateur for teams that were better than her.

I watched a bit of the WWC and the standard is honestly dreadful.
 
DaveL said:
If this happens in big leagues I'll not bother with football anymore.
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If this happens it will last for two games at the most.
Then the gulf between men's and women's football will become all too apparent.
It might not be such a bad thing as it will shut them up about equal pay and air time.
 
MurtyMania said:
Luckily, we do have some measurables for women. Alex Morgan, for example, can run 100m in the low - mid 12s range (top speed), a five-and-a-half minute mile (stamina)

You reckon you could beat that?
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You think those are impressive times?

I have always been relatively fast so yes 12-13s is normal time for the 100m. Our sprint test at football is 40m in under 5.8s from a standing start.

When doing track laps a fast pace 1 off lap is 60-70s max. Multi laps is 80-90s laps. 80s x 4 laps (=0.99 miles) is 5m 20s... So yes, I could get very close off the bat and easily do it after a month or so training for it. Any player in our squad could comfortably do that.
 
Ke55y said:
Using tennis example would they let a male play in the women's game say he was 1 of the sex change fookers and he was skelping them all and no1 would be uproar
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There already is an uproar at schools in the states because "trans" girls are winning everything.

Then there's MMA where an average guy transitioned and smashed fk out of the top women's competitors and fractured one of their eye sockets
 
MurtyMania said:
Interesting idea.

There's no doubt that the highest levels of the womens game has excellent technique, but most would struggle to compete in physical aspects with men.

No reason that can't change though.
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Actually there is - biology. I disagree with women’s football. I think it’s got a long way to go.
 
BigSteve said:
I take your point but go look at how Rhian Evans and Ong Yee do trying to qualify for men's Snooker. Pereniall winner of everything in women's snooker, world titles only those two really. Consistently get their ass handed to them in qualifying tournaments.
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I agree, there's more to it than pure physicality and these sports tend to highlight it more. Although I do think with some sports like snooker, it'll be a lack of participation which may stifle the talent. (A bit like cricket IMO, if it was a national sport the way football is, those currently in the England team would be nowhere near it).

But I digress. The point I meant was in non physical sports I see no reason why there should be any segregation. If that means the women can't compete then so be it.... Get better.

But with physical sports there are physical boundaries which women just can't overcome and therefore I think they should be seperate to give them a shot at competing. That doesn't mean it should be artificially propped up by the mens game though.
 
MurtyMania said:
Interesting idea.

There's no doubt that the highest levels of the womens game has excellent technique, but most would struggle to compete in physical aspects with men.

No reason that can't change though.
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I'm sorry but that is bollocks. I watched bits of their World Cup last year and there is not one player with "excellent technique" - they are absolutely hopeless.
 
MurtyMania said:
There are a lot of football players, including some who play for our club, who come nowhere close to matching all four either.

This is the point - no one is saying a woman could waltz into the Juventus starting line up. But a Serie B team? A Ligue 2 team? Hell, even a lower-end Scottish Premiership team? Maybe.
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The thing that stands out to me there is that you'd be kind of stuck making a choice between:

The best women in the world playing for, for example, Bayern Munich or Real Madrid women's sides in a Women's Champions League Final and getting the financial rewards that come with that. Recognition, sponsorship etc etc.

Or

The women's equivalent of Messi and Ronaldo playing for the likes of St Mirren.

The main purpose of segregated women's sports is to give the women a chance to shine and have success on their own terms.

Much better to have the best woman in the world at Tennis, as an example, recognized as the Woman's Champion than to just be the 300th best player at Tennis.

This would also have the effect of removing women from the world stage when it comes to sports.
If you have to go down to Serie B or Ligue 2 before you are finding the female professional players then you are basically never going to see them on TV compared to having a potentially entertaining and competitive women's league that could pick up it's own audience and TV deals etc.

An alternative might be something like a high profile European player at a top club starts identifying as a woman and so you have an instant top level woman's player but I am sure this opens up a whole other can of worms.
 
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MurtyMania said:
This argument relies heavily on the assumption that every single male professional footballer would exceed every single female professional footballer in every single measurable physical aspect.

I would consider that to be, uh, somewhat unlikely.

Filip Helander isn't winning any 100m sprints. He manages to do alright at centre back though.

David Templeton probably wouldn't do so well at weightlifting. Was still able to have a good professional career though.

This is the point: athletes who are well rounded and good at everything are the exception, not the rule. That goes for both male and female players.
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But this is where you defeat your own arguement. You rightly point out the weaknesses in our team but those are only weaknesses relative to men.

You put Templeton on a weight bench he'll be able to lift more than most women, including the footballers.

You get helander on the track he'll be faster than you think. Certainly faster than most women footballers.
 
TPB90 said:
I'm sorry but that is bollocks. I watched bits of their World Cup last year and there is not one player with "excellent technique" - they are absolutely hopeless.
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I think that is a tad harsh.

Whilst I don't think we should ever have mixed sex teams at professional level, I think to say women are absolutely useless at football is unfair. They have their level just like female tennis players or athletics and while it is not something I would watch it will have it's audience I suppose.
 
TPB90 said:
I'm sorry but that is bollocks. I watched bits of their World Cup last year and there is not one player with "excellent technique" - they are absolutely hopeless.
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I'm not gonna pretend it's fantastic football but there's absolutely women out there (and especially on the World Cup) who have talent and technique.

The issue is that the gap between the top few countries and the rest is so big that you're gonna get situations like the US winning 13-0 so if you're gonna watch a game between smaller countries then I can see why it would look shit.
 
daven37 said:
Could we make up a Follow Follow 11 to take on the Rangers ladies team?

Would be an interesting match.
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The 11 best players would beat the Rangers woman’s team, very comfortably.

The 11 best players on this forum would have a good chance of winning the woman’s World Cup.

I’ve no idea where people get the idea that woman would hold their own against men.
 
daven37 said:
I think that is a tad harsh.

Whilst I don't think we should ever have mixed sex teams at professional level, I think to say women are absolutely useless at football is unfair. They have their level just like female tennis players or athletics and while it is not something I would watch it will have it's audience I suppose.
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In comparison to their male counterparts, they are useless. No point in sugarcoating it.
 
Jelle1880 said:
I'm not gonna pretend it's fantastic football but there's absolutely women out there (and especially on the World Cup) who have talent and technique.

The issue is that the gap between the top few countries and the rest is so big that you're gonna get situations like the US winning 13-0 so if you're gonna watch a game between smaller countries then I can see why it would look shit.
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What level of talent and technique? I watched the World Cup final and you would see Sunday league players who have just rolled out the pub who show more talent & better technique than any of the female players who played in that final.
 
TPB90 said:
What level of talent and technique? I watched the World Cup final and you would see Sunday league players who have just rolled out the pub who show more talent & better technique than any of the female players who played in that final.
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If you watched that final and didn't think any of those players have decent technique then you're at it.
Look at the recap of the England - USA game, some of those goals were very nice.

Listen, it's fine if you don't like women football, I personally wouldn't watch it unless it's like a World Cup and even then only the top countries. But pretending they don't have technique or talent is ridiculous.
 
CF3 Bear said:
Tbh I think there are various sports which should be mixed. Golf, snooker, darts etc which are not reliant on physicality. Sports like football which require an all round athlete are ones which women just cannot compete. Physicality, speed, endurance and skill ALL have to be on point. Women could maybe match 1 or 2 of those but not all 4.
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Darts and snooker don't rely on physicality but it plays a big part in golf.
 
RedWhiteBlue said:
The thing that stands out to me there is that you'd be kind of stuck making a choice between:

The best women in the world playing for, for example, Bayern Munich or Real Madrid women's sides in a Women's Champions League Final and getting the financial rewards that come with that. Recognition, sponsorship etc etc.

Or

The women's equivalent of Messi and Ronaldo playing for the likes of St Mirren.

The main purpose of segregated women's sports is to give the women a chance to shine and have success on their own terms.

Much better to have the best woman in the world at Tennis, as an example, recognized as the Woman's Champion than to just be the 300th best player at Tennis.

This would also have the effect of removing women from the world stage when it comes to sports.
If you have to go down to Serie B or Ligue 2 before you are finding the female professional players then you are basically never going to see them on TV compared to having a potentially entertaining and competitive women's league that could pick up it's own audience and TV deals etc.

An alternative might be something like a high profile European player at a top club starts identifying as a woman and so you have an instant top level woman's player but I am sure this opens up a whole other can of worms.
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Exactly mate. And unfortunately it wouldn't even be St Mirren, Serie B, Ligue 2 or 300 in the world ranked Tennis players. It would be even greater obscurity.

I love watching women's athletics for example. Watching Dina Asher Smith racing Elaine Thompson. Watching all the sprints and jumps especially. I enjoy women's tennis.

But we just need to be realistic about what would happen to women's sport if there was no segregation by gender. Your post explains it reasonably well (if still being far too charitable about what level they would be at).
 
How this sit against the IOC saying the female runner (sorry forget her name) had to prove she was female to continue running against other females?
 
Won't work IMO and the other halfs thoughts too.
Other half played womens football and she only played because she loved football.
She always said that women will never have the physical strength to take on men. Maybe at kids level, & teenagers but never at mens level.
Women can have technique, style, whatever, but never be on a par when it comes to strength. There may be a few who could do it, but that is all, a few.
She would rather women just stick to womens football and let them enjoy it as it is.
 
Soon not be able to call it men or women’s football it will be non identifiable football
 
I don’t care what race, creed or colour people are but places on the team should be entirely on being good enough and if that happens to be a woman great but would it lead to something else?
 
TPB90 said:
In comparison to their male counterparts, they are useless. No point in sugarcoating it.
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It would be silly to mix women into the men's game. There is no doubt about that whether it is football or any physical sport.

To suggest women are useless footballers however is unfair - they have their level like women in any other sport.
 
Chester Loyal said:
The 11 best players would beat the Rangers woman’s team, very comfortably.

The 11 best players on this forum would have a good chance of winning the woman’s World Cup.

I’ve no idea where people get the idea that woman would hold their own against men.
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Seriously - assuming we don't have any of our current squad on here or former players who are still active, you really believe the best 11 players on here could easily defeat the Rangers ladies team?

There is a challenge in there that I think needs to be put to the ladies coach.
 
daven37 said:
Seriously - assuming we don't have any of our current squad on here or former players who are still active, you really believe the best 11 players on here could easily defeat the Rangers ladies team?

There is a challenge in there that I think needs to be put to the ladies coach.
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Out of the thousands of members on here I'd say you could assemble a team of half decent players to easily beat the ladies team. And that's nothing against the ladies team, it's just an opinion.
 
Noddy said:
Out of the thousands of members on here I'd say you could assemble a team of half decent players to easily beat the ladies team. And that's nothing against the ladies team, it's just an opinion.
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It's an opinion that would be would be very interesting to put to the test.

Anyone on here know the ladies coach and if they might accept such a challenge?
 
2020...It's all a bad dream...

september-26-136417757797802601-170503154156.jpg
 
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