Gravenbirch and Timber, 19 & 20, starring for Ajax tonight?

The Goal Machine

Well-Known Member
Superb players.

The question is why do we not give our young players these chances. Not just Rangers, Scottish football in general. Yes, they may not be good enough but that raises the question do young Scottish footballers not have the skill set of young Dutch, Italian or Spanish players.

Remember Willie Henderson he was capped for Scotland at 17. Who else can you remember ?

Why then, is it the clubs fault, is it lifestyle, is it hunger, is it facilities, is it lack of skills, it it the Scottish weather, why is it?

The million dollar question ?
 

erskine bear

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Official Ticketer
Facilities, coaching, culture, expectation.

A lot of Scottish teams promote youth, many just aren’t good enough for a number of reasons.

Watch the U21s, or the U19s against continental sides, not even top ones, and the contrast in technical ability is staggering.

Gravenbirch is a quality player by the way.
 

Ubik

Well-Known Member
The Ajax youth still gives me shivers.

My PE teacher would go on a rage, often, which resulted with us in our PE kit for some reason sitting watching vhs videos of ajax youths being wonderful at everything.
 

Albertz_Was_King

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People go on about grass roots, training, weather etc.

I think as a culture managers in Britain simply don’t give the players a “chance” for want of a better phrase.

Goldson, Katic, Edmundson, Helander and Balogun were all at the club before we bought yet another centre back in Simpson.

Your 6th centre back should never ever be brought in on transfer.

That’s what your up against.

Paterson is arguably the stand out youth player in Scotland and he is meant to be thankful for the odd game every 2 months. It’s mental.
 

The Golden God

Well-Known Member
Don't know much about Ajax or their fans but I'd wager a guess at they give their youth players a lot of leeway when they are playing.

Everyone knows the moans and groans at Ibrox, young players here would get them if they made a mistake.

I think it's just a combination of how football is especially in Scotland. You figure it out you'll have your pick of jobs :D
 

erskine bear

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Official Ticketer
People go on about grass roots, training, weather etc.

I think as a culture managers in Britain simply don’t give the players a “chance” for want of a better phrase.

Goldson, Katic, Edmundson, Helander and Balogun were all at the club before we bought yet another centre back in Simpson.

Your 6th centre back should never ever be brought in on transfer.


That’s what your up against.

Paterson is arguably the stand out youth player in Scotland and he is meant to be thankful for the odd game every 2 months. It’s mental.
It was clear when Simpson signed that they two would be leaving to be fair, I wouldn’t object to our “4th” choice being one of the academy guys right enough.
 

erskine bear

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I also think we overstate the prevalence of academy graduates who make it at other big clubs.

For example, watching Inter just now and they only have one academy player playing and that’s Di Marco who is just getting a run, at 23 and was a baw hair away from going on loan last month.

As mentioned above, I’m sure the Ajax fan base would gladly sacrifice the title for a year or two so they can allow their youth players to develop - we simply wouldn’t.

The ones that do make it, have to be special talents a la Nathan Patterson and that’s the case for most clubs. I’d love us to bring through several youth players year in year out, but it’s just not possible.

That’s all just my opinion, one factual thing though - whilst our country employs the likes of Malky Mackay and Scott Gemmil to oversee youth, it’s unlikely to improve.
 

mathers1

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Official Ticketer
Gravenberch has been about for a few years now. Lovely footballer.

Timber is a little older but only broke through last year, which proves it’s not necessarily just age.

Ajax’s set up pisses over nearly ever other in Europe, that includes Barca who have only produced Fati & Pedri in recent years.
 

BigTinder86

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We brought on in Simpson who looks completely average and a bit of a fairy. Why not just save some money and go with Mayo? No one can tell me Simpson is any better.
 

Fergie90

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Gravenberch has been about for a few years now. Lovely footballer.

Timber is a little older but only broke through last year, which proves it’s not necessarily just age.

Ajax’s set up pisses over nearly ever other in Europe, that includes Barca who have only produced Fati & Pedri in recent years.
Think they bought Pedri did they not ?

Barca better have a raft of very good youngsters soon or they are fu*ked.
 

mikeymols_10

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Official Ticketer
Don't know much about Ajax or their fans but I'd wager a guess at they give their youth players a lot of leeway when they are playing.

Everyone knows the moans and groans at Ibrox, young players here would get them if they made a mistake.

I think it's just a combination of how football is especially in Scotland. You figure it out you'll have your pick of jobs :D
I’ve been to quite a few Ajax games. Some they’ve been brilliant and won and a couple they’ve been terrible and lost. One thing that always stuck out for me was that the fans always backed the team. No abuse shouted at players and also show a lot of patience. Don’t hear the moans and groans there the way you get them here.
 

PortoyMortoy

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Not just Ajax, the dutch in general are fantastic at developing young players and giving them opportunities. Quite jealous when you see the kind of money teams like Ajax are able to spend on individual players and they still give their academy players a chance.

There's very little to complain about with Gerrard but he seems hesitant to give the younger players opportunities. Balogun was initially preferred to Patterson when Tav missed a couple of months, before everyone knew that couldn't continue. Patterson isn't a 17 or 18 year old where protecting him makes sense, he'll be 20 in two and a half weeks. Then you have signings like Simpson, done nothing in his career to suggest he's even worth of being at Rangers, turns 25 before the end of the year but given a 4 year deal. Majority of his game time will come when there's a injury crisis to the position or you can get away with rotation so when King and McClelland have both made the bench since Simpson has signed, why not give that odd bit of game time to them and see if you have something?
 

mathers1

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Think they bought Pedri did they not ?

Barca better have a raft of very good youngsters soon or they are fu*ked.
Bought from Las Palmas at 16 but I would still class him as from their setup as he’ll be there 3 years before turning 21.

I think they’re screwed regardless.

Apart from the golden generation from 2008 onwards their academy hasn’t produced all that much.
 

ChildOfGod

Well-Known Member
I’ve been to quite a few Ajax games. Some they’ve been brilliant and won and a couple they’ve been terrible and lost. One thing that always stuck out for me was that the fans always backed the team. No abuse shouted at players and also show a lot of patience. Don’t hear the moans and groans there the way you get them here.
never been to Ajax groud but this is an interesting contribution to the thread because maybe it implies there fans may Also be educated in football and know what they are watching much better than us .

one point I would like to make is the level of education and knowledge there players have at such an early age , this is systematic it is not on a per player basis they simply have a way of educating there youths to the highest degree . That tells me they aspire to much much more than we do . We need to demand more of all of our staff and players , and cease the moaning and grumping of thr gams . We have to trust them to try and improve and learn .. and be the best .
 

Lovenkrands Dug

Well-Known Member
One of the reason's Gravenberch has excelled at such a young age is the fact he is built like Godzilla. You rarely see players play regularly at 16-18 that aren't physically far ahead of their age group, unless they're a flair player like a winger where strength isn't vital. So it's already difficult enough to meet that requirement, but then they also need to be physical enough to handle the challenges we face which takes time for seasoned pros to adjust to never mind a kid.
 

Kubala

Well-Known Member
I’ve been to quite a few Ajax games. Some they’ve been brilliant and won and a couple they’ve been terrible and lost. One thing that always stuck out for me was that the fans always backed the team. No abuse shouted at players and also show a lot of patience. Don’t hear the moans and groans there the way you get them here.
Probably the strongest argument for making everyone smoke a joint at least once in their lives right here.
 

Kubala

Well-Known Member
They also don’t have any nearby countries who speak the same language and have the same culture to steal anyway any promising talent.
They've been losing players to the bigger clubs for the past generation at least. There was a 'forgotten' generation that did well at youth levels and saw them all sign for dross like Blackburn or superclubs like Real Madrid before they had hundreds of Eredivisie appearances under their belts as had happened in the past. Maduro, Drenthe and Rigters are the three I remember standing out the most and failing to live up to the early promise to varying degrees.

 

Lovenkrands Dug

Well-Known Member
I also think we overstate the prevalence of academy graduates who make it at other big clubs.

For example, watching Inter just now and they only have one academy player playing and that’s Di Marco who is just getting a run, at 23 and was a baw hair away from going on loan last month.

As mentioned above, I’m sure the Ajax fan base would gladly sacrifice the title for a year or two so they can allow their youth players to develop - we simply wouldn’t.

The ones that do make it, have to be special talents a la Nathan Patterson and that’s the case for most clubs. I’d love us to bring through several youth players year in year out, but it’s just not possible.

That’s all just my opinion, one factual thing though - whilst our country employs the likes of Malky Mackay and Scott Gemmil to oversee youth, it’s unlikely to improve.
There are a few freak sides that manage to regularly win leagues whilst bringing through multiple academy players each year. Even then, I'm sure their sides are probably made up of just as many domestic signings from other strong academies (Zagreb, Red Star, Slavia).

I don't think it is an easy position to get to though, these teams have been developing their academies for decades. Elfideldo done a report on Partisans academy and I'm sure they literally have their own school and living spaces for their players.
 

bkerr72

Well-Known Member
One of the reason's Gravenberch has excelled at such a young age is the fact he is built like Godzilla. You rarely see players play regularly at 16-18 that aren't physically far ahead of their age group, unless they're a flair player like a winger where strength isn't vital. So it's already difficult enough to meet that requirement, but then they also need to be physical enough to handle the challenges we face which takes time for seasoned pros to adjust to never mind a kid.
Been watching a couple of the uefa youth league games and it's one thing you notice with the foreign teams they are big physically. I noticed it with Milan when they played Liverpool and then a few of the PSG players today against City. Some of the City boys to be fair were well built as well.
 

bobba

Well-Known Member
never been to Ajax groud but this is an interesting contribution to the thread because maybe it implies there fans may Also be educated in football and know what they are watching much better than us .

given that comment earlier about always having 500 boys on the books at a time, they're probably all ex-players
 

bkerr72

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The biggest issue we have is the manager doesn't trust the younger players. Patterson was forced on him last season after Balogun's 2 performances left him with no option but to play Patterson. Bassey has had opportunities this season but last season he was ditched after 1 bad performance. Steven Kelly progress now halted with sitting in the stand every weekend. The 5 sub rule has probably put pay to any game time Kelly could get but he should have been loaned out again.

The talent appears to be there now within the B team and its time we started using it otherwise we are just going to lose our better youngsters.
 

Gilberstoun Bear

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Superb players.

The question is why do we not give our young players these chances. Not just Rangers, Scottish football in general. Yes, they may not be good enough but that raises the question do young Scottish footballers not have the skill set of young Dutch, Italian or Spanish players.

Remember Willie Henderson he was capped for Scotland at 17. Who else can you remember ?

Why then, is it the clubs fault, is it lifestyle, is it hunger, is it facilities, is it lack of skills, it it the Scottish weather, why is it?

The million dollar question ?
Ajax have scouts in every continent and have done so for decades, a model that clearly works and they are a joy to watch and hate they t@rriers into the bargain!
 

strider

Well-Known Member
Ajax are an exception, not the rule. It's unfair to compare just about any club to them in this regard.

One thing that seems to be just assumed when it comes to youth players is that they'll definitely improve if given games. That's not a given at all, and we've had countless examples at Rangers over the decades.
 

albert_left_peg

Well-Known Member
A lot of good points made already why Ajax are so successful at developing players.

My wee man is in the Ajax academy and the facilities and setup are outstanding.

He also gets the time to develop properly, training sessions are organised and planned and scheduled for times when they can perform and train at optimum times.

It’s not just Ajax though even the local boys clubs have outstanding facilities, most of them equipped with top notch AstroTurf pitches and the coaches are all quailed and want the boys to play football … not just thunder into tackles and launch the ball up the park.

Although my kid is only 9, I get the opportunity to see the other age levels training from time to time and the talent coming through is frightening.

Last comment I would say that majority of the kids in the academy all have their heads screwed on, they don’t have to deal with the social distractions that come with being a 16 to 18 yr old in Scotland.
 

Ryan

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Done the Ajax tour when we played Feyenoord away tour guide said he was their next star coming through that would go for big money.
 

RenfrewBear72

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Patterson is the prime example, every time you see him play he shows you something else he can do.
He was also the biggest bid we got all summer, and yes we rejected it rightfully but I don’t see anyone offering upwards of £10m for Tav.
The lad needs to play or he will want out.
For the record I love Tav but Patterson has to be the successor this season into next, otherwise what’s the point?
 

bluestory

Well-Known Member
The Ajax youth still gives me shivers.

My PE teacher would go on a rage, often, which resulted with us in our PE kit for some reason sitting watching vhs videos of ajax youths being wonderful at everything.

Shiver your timbers do they?
 

Tommy1912

Well-Known Member
People will say we have to win every week so the manager would rather play it safe. We should be in a position that it's easier for us to bring youngsters into the side. We would beat most of the sides at home with 10 men if we got a sending off so carrying a player shouldn't hinder us to much .the side wouldn't even be carrying them most of the time. Just needs the other players to be a bit more switched on incase they need to cover for them.
 

Skyy Bluenose

Well-Known Member
Steven Kelly progress now halted with sitting in the stand every weekend. The 5 sub rule has probably put pay to any game time Kelly could get but he should have been loaned out again.
5 subs would benefit a lot of young talent in Scotland. Unfortunately, it's seen that Rangers and them have the deeper squads, so it's an advantage. Therefore, we're not allowing it.

Scottish football hating itself to death again.
 

Tommy48

Well-Known Member
Hey it's Ajax we are talking about, they have been doing it for nearly 50 years.
So no surprise here.
 

Kubala

Well-Known Member
A lot of good points made already why Ajax are so successful at developing players.

My wee man is in the Ajax academy and the facilities and setup are outstanding.

He also gets the time to develop properly, training sessions are organised and planned and scheduled for times when they can perform and train at optimum times.

It’s not just Ajax though even the local boys clubs have outstanding facilities, most of them equipped with top notch AstroTurf pitches and the coaches are all quailed and want the boys to play football … not just thunder into tackles and launch the ball up the park.

Although my kid is only 9, I get the opportunity to see the other age levels training from time to time and the talent coming through is frightening.

Last comment I would say that majority of the kids in the academy all have their heads screwed on, they don’t have to deal with the social distractions that come with being a 16 to 18 yr old in Scotland.
I think those are the two key points. When I was growing up, you'd get a school football team run by someone's Dad and it was really a toss of a coin if that guy had any idea what he was doing. If you joined a local club, you'd have coaches who prioritized winning over getting better. I think everyone has some variation of that story of two goalkeepers and one being picked over the other because he could throw it further they can think back to. Once you got to about 15 or 16 the best players in my school team were getting drunk every weekend and I think there's a reason Scotland can compete with other countries until around that age before losing it completely between 19 and 21 or so. When I went to Germany when I was 20, I ended up in a small village and was blown away by the local football club's facilities. They were tied into a gymnasium, 3 full size grass pitches with lines and nets that were free for 'local' use and a small 3-a-side style court for younger people. Compare and contrast that to £55 an hour for a plastic pitch.
 
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albert_left_peg

Well-Known Member
People will say we have to win every week so the manager would rather play it safe. We should be in a position that it's easier for us to bring youngsters into the side. We would beat most of the sides at home with 10 men if we got a sending off so carrying a player shouldn't hinder us to much .the side wouldn't even be carrying them most of the time. Just needs the other players to be a bit more switched on incase they need to cover for them.

To an extent that is true... you only need to read the threads on here over the last few days regarding people not caring about performances, winning is all that matters. It’s very hard to bring young players through in the environment we play in..... the pressure is intense and the physical side of the game is tough for any young player to adapt too.


In Amsterdam, whilst Ajax are important and the fans care passionately about the club, they also demand entertaining football and take great pleasure in seeing local young talent coming through and dare I say, if they don’t win a game it’s not the end Of the world for many.
 

Tommy1912

Well-Known Member
To an extent that is true... you only need to read the threads on here over the last few days regarding people not caring about performances, winning is all that matters. It’s very hard to bring young players through in the environment we play in..... the pressure is intense and the physical side of the game is tough for any young player to adapt too.


In Amsterdam, whilst Ajax are important and the fans care passionately about the club, they also demand entertaining football and take great pleasure in seeing local young talent coming through and dare I say, if they don’t win a game it’s not the end Of the world for many.

If we don't start showing faith in them they won't stay, wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if patterson says he wants to go in January if nothings changed and itl be the clubs fault. He will leave eventually but I think he'd stay 2 or 3 seasons with us if he was in the starting 11.
 

TheDerryend

Well-Known Member
Britain, not just scotland don't really produce many technically gifted players, if we do, it soon gets lost.

I'll say one thing for the Dutch, they know technical ability alright. Advocate seen it right away in barry ferguson and immediately made him a mainstay of the team.
 

Egt

Well-Known Member
On this theme, Nathan Patterson was the youngest player ever to go to a major tournament with Scotland. Obviously we haven’t qualified for many recently but we used to consistently, so distrust of youth goes back quite some time.
 

ICA_86

Well-Known Member
Britain, not just scotland don't really produce many technically gifted players, if we do, it soon gets lost.

I'll say one thing for the Dutch, they know technical ability alright. Advocate seen it right away in barry ferguson and immediately made him a mainstay of the team.
England produce plenty.

We still see Stephen O’Donnell as an automatic pick.
 

Buffalobluebear

Well-Known Member
While there’s probably greater pressure in the Eredivisie and definitely in the Champions League to perform, I’d say the conditions (footballing style and philosophy) are better set up to allow young players to come through

then you look at Scotland. Half the young guys we have would get scythed down by useless cart horse of players who think crippling a player is a means to success. How do you change the perceptions of what our game is?
 
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