Helander over Katic

Drumchapel-Bear

Well-Known Member
he is responsible for goals against Moscow, Villarreal, Dundee, Celtic and Aberdeen twice for doing exactly what Danger Zone said.
Can you now show us the errors in Katic’s game that caused as many goals?
Every player makes mistakes. Fans only seem to remember the errors that are punished though.
 

final_straws

Well-Known Member
Goldson is the better all round player of the 2, but I understand why folk think differently because of Katics style of play.
Spot on.

I do hope Gerrard rotates Goldson at some point though as he was run into the ground last season & we now have the strength in depth to allow us to do this
 

the bridge

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Goldson is a 2m defender
Hellander a 3m defender

Katic has the potential to be 10-15m defender
So by that definition you're sort of saying he's a multiple better than both? Whilst I think in Katic we have a good player, I'd say he gets a very easy time on here. Some players are one solitary mistake away from bringing this place into meltdown whereas with Katic the mistakes or poorer performances appear to make him even better.
 

Coplandbear

Well-Known Member
Spot on.

I do hope Gerrard rotates Goldson at some point though as he was run into the ground last season & we now have the strength in depth to allow us to do this
He won't be dropped or rotated that's the thing bar maybe Wednesday and the early Scottish Cup games depending on opposition he will play virtually all of our games this season. He's a Gerrard favourite so he's a stick on to play every week.
 

dt17

Well-Known Member
We have to remember that Katic had very little down time during the summer and whilst last season he had every right to feel aggrieved at being displaced by Worral, Helander is a different proposition.

I have no doubt Katic will be utilised throughout what is going to be a long hard season including international call ups for which Goldson will not. To that end I think SG will husband certain resources all season to exact the absolute maximum from them.

The manager may well be protecting Katic after a couple of loose performances on the basis of protecting both his confidence and future resale value to the club. As it is clear Katic has the potential to go right to the very top of his profession.

Therefore I am happy to trust the managers judgment on this as that is why they pay him the big bucks.
I'm not sure dropping a player who had been playing very well at the start of the season, who then had a shaky game or two from the squad entirely is going to boost his confidence?

He's not a wee boy, he's 22.
 

Jaws II

Well-Known Member
Every player makes mistakes. Fans only seem to remember the errors that are punished though.
Because that is what loses games.

We have won %^*& all for 7 years, so fans are quite rightly getting a bit nervy when we think the manager may have a blind spot for certain players to the detriment of the team.
In his last spell Walter had the bad habit of fitting Jig into his team, however he could show us the shiny metal cups at the season end to show us he was correct.
SG hasn’t earned that right. We have lost semi finals and crucial league games.
Yes he has improved us a hell of a lot, however on this occasion many of the support think Katic is a better defender than Goldson. Both are good CHs and both have faults.
Last season our form dropped badly when Worrall was brought in for Katic which was a bad mistake by SG and many are frustrated this could happen again.
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
We struggled to keep possession in the second half and invited pressure. Fair enough that can always happen in games, especially against better opponents but we rode our luck - especially at set pieces where Goldson and Helander both lost their men and they had two great chances from it.

I'm not saying Katic is perfect, far from it. But I think the main issue is that Goldson is undroppable no matter how badly he plays.
Overall, in my opinion of course, Goldson is a far more accomplished defender than Katic currently is.
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
he is responsible for goals against Moscow, Villarreal, Dundee, Celtic and Aberdeen twice for doing exactly what Danger Zone said.
Can you now show us the errors in Katic’s game that caused as many goals?
That’s some memory there bud.
Some might think it’s just made up.
Can you tell me how many chances he stopped being created in those or any other games.
Or is just the negatives of the facts that suit you that you keep a diary of?
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
Because that is what loses games.

We have won %^*& all for 7 years, so fans are quite rightly getting a bit nervy when we think the manager may have a blind spot for certain players to the detriment of the team.
In his last spell Walter had the bad habit of fitting Jig into his team, however he could show us the shiny metal cups at the season end to show us he was correct.
SG hasn’t earned that right. We have lost semi finals and crucial league games.
Yes he has improved us a hell of a lot, however on this occasion many of the support think Katic is a better defender than Goldson. Both are good CHs and both have faults.
Last season our form dropped badly when Worrall was brought in for Katic which was a bad mistake by SG and many are frustrated this could happen again.
I’ll tell you what loses Rangers more games than defensive errors.
Mistakes when shooting, more commonly known as bad finishing.
Mistakes when passing or crossing the ball sometimes called not beating the first man.
Strikers not making themselves available for a pass.
All mistakes made by players in every game played.
I think it’s only fair to balance the “loses games” bit with “doesn’t win games” facts as well.
 

Drumchapel-Bear

Well-Known Member
Because that is what loses games.

We have won %^*& all for 7 years, so fans are quite rightly getting a bit nervy when we think the manager may have a blind spot for certain players to the detriment of the team.
In his last spell Walter had the bad habit of fitting Jig into his team, however he could show us the shiny metal cups at the season end to show us he was correct.
SG hasn’t earned that right. We have lost semi finals and crucial league games.
Yes he has improved us a hell of a lot, however on this occasion many of the support think Katic is a better defender than Goldson. Both are good CHs and both have faults.
Last season our form dropped badly when Worrall was brought in for Katic which was a bad mistake by SG and many are frustrated this could happen again.
We've kept two clean sheets since Katic has been left out.
 

Barker96

Well-Known Member
Because that is what loses games.

We have won %^*& all for 7 years, so fans are quite rightly getting a bit nervy when we think the manager may have a blind spot for certain players to the detriment of the team.
In his last spell Walter had the bad habit of fitting Jig into his team, however he could show us the shiny metal cups at the season end to show us he was correct.
SG hasn’t earned that right. We have lost semi finals and crucial league games.
Yes he has improved us a hell of a lot, however on this occasion many of the support think Katic is a better defender than Goldson. Both are good CHs and both have faults.
Last season our form dropped badly when Worrall was brought in for Katic which was a bad mistake by SG and many are frustrated this could happen again.
I agree that bringing in Worrall for Katic last season was a mistake. Who's to say what exactly what the thinking was behind that move, in hindsight it looks like a mistake, but the important thing for me this season is it's Helander that Katic has been dropped for and not Worrall.

Helander was brought in to be the big player in those games you talked about. He represents Sweden at international level, has won league titles at Malmo, has racked up plenty of experience against top opposition in the champions league & Serie A - it's exactly the type of CV I want at the heart of our defence when it comes to these big games.

I just don't see what there is to get so worked up about with Katic being left out. The defence is functioning well with Helander & Goldson at the back so far, and there's been a notable improvement in Barisic's form as well - whether that's all down to Helander coming into the squad we'll see, but if the trend of clean sheets continues then I'll happily see Katic sit on the bench for the rest of the season. All I care about is winning games. If things start to wobble again then we can debate bringing Katic back into the side, but just don't see why it's an issue at the moment.
 

Jaws II

Well-Known Member
I’ll tell you what loses Rangers more games than defensive errors.
Mistakes when shooting, more commonly known as bad finishing.
Mistakes when passing or crossing the ball sometimes called not beating the first man.
Strikers not making themselves available for a pass.
All mistakes made by players in every game played.
I think it’s only fair to balance the “loses games” bit with “doesn’t win games” facts as well.
some of us on here give the manager and the players praise when we do well. Some of us will also offer criticism when we think a mistake has been made.
Some on FF though seem to think any criticism or opinion contrary to that of the manager isn’t allowed and you should never question the manager.
Sorry I don’t buy this, I am a football fan and a fan of Rangers and I want what is best for the team as does SG of course.
I have said that I think Katic is better than Goldson (SG clearly doesn’t think so), I have shown with the stats that Goldson has directly been responsible for more goals than Katic has.
However some like yourself will say the stats show Goldson is better and that is why SG plays him. However you are just using one set of stats that back up your argument and ignoring stats that don’t.
Apart from Moscow I am still waiting for a list of errors Katic has made that caused goals.
I want us playing our best team to ensure we win the league. Celtic were weak last year and we threw away a chance to win the league.
The players and the manager missed an opportunity last season, however it was his first managerial possession and he had a fucking horrible squad he inherited.
However fans are nervy as this was roughly about the time last year we fucked about with our central defence and the frustration is if we make the same errors again this year.
 

Jaws II

Well-Known Member
I agree that bringing in Worrall for Katic last season was a mistake. Who's to say what exactly what the thinking was behind that move, in hindsight it looks like a mistake, but the important thing for me this season is it's Helander that Katic has been dropped for and not Worrall.

Helander was brought in to be the big player in those games you talked about. He represents Sweden at international level, has won league titles at Malmo, has racked up plenty of experience against top opposition in the champions league & Serie A - it's exactly the type of CV I want at the heart of our defence when it comes to these big games.

I just don't see what there is to get so worked up about with Katic being left out. The defence is functioning well with Helander & Goldson at the back so far, and there's been a notable improvement in Barisic's form as well - whether that's all down to Helander coming into the squad we'll see, but if the trend of clean sheets continues then I'll happily see Katic sit on the bench for the rest of the season. All I care about is winning games. If things start to wobble again then we can debate bringing Katic back into the side, but just don't see why it's an issue at the moment.
Your last paragraph is true. People who think Katic is better will (me included) just have to accept it and enjoy the ride if we win cups and the title.
If this happens then SG is correct to do what he has done.
However we haven’t won anything yet and it is only recently Katic has been dropped.
Only time will show what happens and I hope the manager gets it right.
 

dt17

Well-Known Member
I’ll tell you what loses Rangers more games than defensive errors.
Mistakes when shooting, more commonly known as bad finishing.
Mistakes when passing or crossing the ball sometimes called not beating the first man.
Strikers not making themselves available for a pass.

All mistakes made by players in every game played.
I think it’s only fair to balance the “loses games” bit with “doesn’t win games” facts as well.
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

None of those things lose you football games. Conceding goals lose you football games.

We've kept two clean sheets since Katic has been left out.
Whilst true, do you think we have looked completely solid at the back in both games? Helander against Feyenoord maybe, but they both looked a bit shaky vs St Johnstone.

My worry with Helander is that he looks a bit lightweight and might struggle against some of the big hammer throwers in our league.
 

TassieBill

Member
He was decent today , only negative was when him and May challenged for the ball which fell for MOH.
This was because, yet again, Helander doesn't jump to head the ball. This is something I've noticed over the two games he's started - it happened numerous times on Thursday night as well. It's bizarre, and it's going to lead to us conceding more chances unless he starts attacking the ball with authority.

Go back and watch either or both of the games and you'll see what I mean - he keeps him feet planted and relies on upper body strength to win the ball.
 

SmileyBear

Well-Known Member
If Gerrard can get Goldson to stop thinking he's Becanbauer then he would be very decent. He constantly floats the ball into no man's land, passes direct to opposition, too much pondering on the ball slowing it down. If he had Edmundsons distribution:)
The problem I have with Goldson is he lets the ball bounce a lot and it causes us problems he's a great organiser/shouter but some of his passing is awful.
 

BroxburnBear

Well-Known Member
I think Gerrard underestimates what a kick in the stones it is for a player to be excluded from the match day squad completely and left in the stand. As others have mentioned, had they scored from the frankly hopeless Helander header you're looking at an entirely different thread.
 

Drumchapel-Bear

Well-Known Member
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

None of those things lose you football games. Conceding goals lose you football games.



Whilst true, do you think we have looked completely solid at the back in both games? Helander against Feyenoord maybe, but they both looked a bit shaky vs St Johnstone.

My worry with Helander is that he looks a bit lightweight and might struggle against some of the big hammer throwers in our league.
I think people are just looking for things that aren't there now to justify the shout to get Katic back in the team. We had been struggling to get clean sheets all season and we've now had 2 on the spin.

I like Katic btw I think he's solid and is a good prospect but the obsession with him on here is becoming really weird.
 

BrooklynBlue

Well-Known Member
I think Gerrard underestimates what a kick in the stones it is for a player to be excluded from the match day squad completely and left in the stand. As others have mentioned, had they scored from the frankly hopeless Helander header you're looking at an entirely different thread.
Come on, we've even had Dirk Kuyt in the past week relating a story about how SG was omitted from a match-day squad but came back the next day training even harder.

I would suggest Gerrard knows the significance of dropping a player.
 

Jaws II

Well-Known Member
I like Katic and have no doubts he will go on to have a brilliant career, but he is very much over rated on here. For me Goldson is still the better CB of the 2.

Some on here need to chill out and trust in the gaffer.
It is hard to do that when he got it wrong with Worrall last year. Some have to realise although he is great SG isn’t without fault and will make mistakes.
He did it last year by dropping Katic for Worrall. He also picked a strange team for the Celtic game that puzzled the vast majority of the support.
The result being we lost and played fucking awful.

Trust only comes with success.
 

fergie1959

Well-Known Member
Love big Katic. Thing is though. In order to have a good centre back pairing we have to pick two and let them play together as much as possible. Don't think there is much between Goldson and Katic, but Gerrard made Goldson vice captain for a reason. Helander gives us much more balance being naturally left sided. I would continue with these two unless one of the loses form completely.
 

Bluerhap

Well-Known Member
Fearful that this is deja vu from last season. Thought Gerrard would have learned that a stable partnership is needed at the back to let the partnership gain confidence. Katic and Goldson have that. Danger is games will be lost to allow Helander and Goldson the time to develope a partnership. Tinkering like this cost us the league last year. Hope we’re not in for a repeat.
 

Grigo Yossarian

Well-Known Member
I think people are just looking for things that aren't there now to justify the shout to get Katic back in the team. We had been struggling to get clean sheets all season and we've now had 2 on the spin.

I like Katic btw I think he's solid and is a good prospect but the obsession with him on here is becoming really weird.
I respect your views DB, but do disagree on this.

From my observations Goldson has been struggling for maybe 6 weeks. His distribution in particular is poor, as both of these two games again illustrated, despite two good wins & two shutouts.

He was clearly also at fault for the vital goal against the scum due to a bad pass & also lost his man in a second half corner v Feyenoord.

Do we want to wait until we lose a vital game or address an issue before it happens ? I think we will all agree the latter.

I absolutely accept Katic is young & has development issues, but Goldson’s seem to be ignored.
 

Valley Bluenose

Well-Known Member
This was because, yet again, Helander doesn't jump to head the ball. This is something I've noticed over the two games he's started - it happened numerous times on Thursday night as well. It's bizarre, and it's going to lead to us conceding more chances unless he starts attacking the ball with authority.

Go back and watch either or both of the games and you'll see what I mean - he keeps him feet planted and relies on upper body strength to win the ball.
There's been a change in the way the pairing operate mate. Previously Katic was the ball-winner, the man who went to challenge in the air, whilst Goldson, generally, stood off and picked up the pieces. This is for high punts up the park from the opposition, rather than crosses into the box. I've noticed over the last couple of games that Goldson is challenging in the air a lot more than when Katic partners him. Whether that's for better or worse remains to be seen.

As I've said many times now, IMHO there's little to choose between our centre-backs in terms of ability but Goldson and Helander bring the experience. Goldson also bring the leadership qualities that the others don't have in our defence (and I'd include Tav in that as well). His distribution can be poor (it can also create chances) but, in truth, most of the time the ball should simply be getting rolled to Davis or Jack in any case.
 

Drumchapel-Bear

Well-Known Member
I respect your views DB, but do disagree on this.

From my observations Goldson has been struggling for maybe 6 weeks. His distribution in particular is poor, as both of these two games again illustrated, despite two good wins & two shutouts.

He was clearly also at fault for the vital goal against the scum due to a bad pass & also lost his man in a second half corner v Feyenoord.

Do we want to wait until we lose a vital game or address an issue before it happens ? I think we will all agree the latter.

I absolutely accept Katic is young & has development issues, but Goldson’s seem to be ignored.
Gerrard will take part of the blame as well for Goldson making bad passes as hes the one instructing our defenders to be brave and pass the ball from the back. Mistakes are always going to happen when you're taking more risks in that regard. Goldson was just unlucky against Celtic that his mistake was punished. Katic made a similar error in the 2nd half and Goldson had to make a last ditch challenge to prevent Celtic scoring again. These things happen.

As I said, I like Katic but if in arguing to get him back in the team I'm not basing it on his distribution. Passing is one of Katics big weaknesses imo.
 

Bowery Boy

Well-Known Member
Fearful that this is deja vu from last season. Thought Gerrard would have learned that a stable partnership is needed at the back to let the partnership gain confidence. Katic and Goldson have that. Danger is games will be lost to allow Helander and Goldson the time to develope a partnership. Tinkering like this cost us the league last year. Hope we’re not in for a repeat.
We've just beaten Feyenoord 1-0 and St Johnstone 4-0 away from home. The level of bleating over this is absolutely incredible. Helander, currently, is a better defender than Katic. This notion that we're going to start dropping points because we've introduced an experienced CH who's played at the very highest level of club football and 3 years in Serie A is utterly ludicrous. It just screams of people needing something to moan about.
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
some of us on here give the manager and the players praise when we do well. Some of us will also offer criticism when we think a mistake has been made.
Some on FF though seem to think any criticism or opinion contrary to that of the manager isn’t allowed and you should never question the manager.
Sorry I don’t buy this, I am a football fan and a fan of Rangers and I want what is best for the team as does SG of course.
I have said that I think Katic is better than Goldson (SG clearly doesn’t think so), I have shown with the stats that Goldson has directly been responsible for more goals than Katic has.
However some like yourself will say the stats show Goldson is better and that is why SG plays him. However you are just using one set of stats that back up your argument and ignoring stats that don’t.
Apart from Moscow I am still waiting for a list of errors Katic has made that caused goals.
I want us playing our best team to ensure we win the league. Celtic were weak last year and we threw away a chance to win the league.
The players and the manager missed an opportunity last season, however it was his first managerial possession and he had a fucking horrible squad he inherited.
However fans are nervy as this was roughly about the time last year we fucked about with our central defence and the frustration is if we make the same errors again this year.
Could you tell me where these stats are as I’ve missed them?
I read your post telling us the goals Goldson caused by these aren’t the only mistakes made.
For example, would Helander’s error when McGregor saved the shot count as an error,
Surely this information must be important if you’re looking at respective errors.
 

tazzabear

Well-Known Member
That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

None of those things lose you football games. Conceding goals lose you football games.



Whilst true, do you think we have looked completely solid at the back in both games? Helander against Feyenoord maybe, but they both looked a bit shaky vs St Johnstone.

My worry with Helander is that he looks a bit lightweight and might struggle against some of the big hammer throwers in our league.
Surely you jest.
If you score more than you concede you’ll win.
It’s that simple.
Consider this, it from a few years back but the principle is the same.
When Hamilton put Rangers out of the cup in 1987, was it the amount of chances we missed, errors by our players, or the one mistake McPherson made?
A mistake made when we should have been out of sight.
 

Drumchapel-Bear

Well-Known Member
It is hard to do that when he got it wrong with Worrall last year. Some have to realise although he is great SG isn’t without fault and will make mistakes.
He did it last year by dropping Katic for Worrall. He also picked a strange team for the Celtic game that puzzled the vast majority of the support.
The result being we lost and played fucking awful.

Trust only comes with success.
Worrall was nowhere near as bad as made out on here. He became a target for fans who loved Katic and every single error or iffy game Worrall played, he was lynched. A similar thing is happening again now with Goldson who's being made out to be a bit of a dud by many people because hes getting a game ahead of Katic.

Edmundson was arguably our best defender in preseason and he's not had a sniff in the competitive games and nobody seems to care about him. Poor guy :D
 

ClaudeTheProd2

Active Member
It is hard to do that when he got it wrong with Worrall last year. Some have to realise although he is great SG isn’t without fault and will make mistakes.
He did it last year by dropping Katic for Worrall. He also picked a strange team for the Celtic game that puzzled the vast majority of the support.
The result being we lost and played fucking awful.

Trust only comes with success.
Difference is Helander is a £3.5m Swedish international...Worrall is Championship level at best.
 

cloodie

Well-Known Member
Worrall was nowhere near as bad as made out on here. He became a target for fans who loved Katic and every single error or iffy game Worrall played, he was lynched. A similar thing is happening again now with Goldson who's being made out to be a bit of a dud by many people because hes getting a game ahead of Katic.

Edmundson was arguably our best defender in preseason and he's not had a sniff in the competitive games and nobody seems to care about him. Poor guy :D
Slight correction, Edmundson played against St Joseph's at Ibrox.
 

dt17

Well-Known Member
We've just beaten Feyenoord 1-0 and St Johnstone 4-0 away from home. The level of bleating over this is absolutely incredible. Helander, currently, is a better defender than Katic. This notion that we're going to start dropping points because we've introduced an experienced CH who's played at the very highest level of club football and 3 years in Serie A is utterly ludicrous. It just screams of people needing something to moan about.
I don't think anyone is moaning about Helander getting a game...it's Goldson who is getting it tight due to poor performances and his seemingly undroppable status.

FWIW Katic is easily (and I mean streets ahead) our best ball winner when it comes to aerial battles.
 

DJ_RFC_1872

Well-Known Member
Gerrards lucky Helander and Goldson have done well together.
I like Katic but Helander is better with the ball at his feet and more experienced.
Katic is for the future.
Hope Katic starts and scores against Livi on Wednesday.
 

Kirbys House

Well-Known Member
Worrall was nowhere near as bad as made out on here. He became a target for fans who loved Katic and every single error or iffy game Worrall played, he was lynched. A similar thing is happening again now with Goldson who's being made out to be a bit of a dud by many people because hes getting a game ahead of Katic.

Edmundson was arguably our best defender in preseason and he's not had a sniff in the competitive games and nobody seems to care about him. Poor guy :D
The Killie game, one major mistake, is still used when posters try to justify how he was 'rubbish'.
 

Followbear93

Active Member
Something must have happened for Katic to be dropped fully? Doesn’t deserve that IMO. Gerrards got a habit of these strange decisions- the other one was dropping Candy man out the squad. Some decisions baffles me
 
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