Helander over Katic

I don’t think it’s panty wetting Pete.

I think we all just care about getting the team to the optimum.

It’s OK having a shut out at Perth but it’s the European games, the scum & the sheep that will probably define our season in terms of success.

Right now I wouldn’t rule out Edmondson from our best eleven never mind Katic. I personally want A COMBINATION that brings power, pace, passing, goals for us and defensive savvy.

Well...Helander and Goldson got a shut out...in a european game on Thursday sooooo...
 
Well to be fair SG did not wait for a couple of poor performance before binning Katic. In his 2nd last game against Legia young Katic was immense, winning praise from everyone, most especially SG himself.

Both Katic and Goldson were out of sorts against Celtic but it was Goldson's intercepted pass that led to us conceding the first goal.

It surely is not to difficult to understand why sections of the support believe that Katic has been unfairly dropped, especially considering his excellent start to the season where, almost to a man, the support were in agreement that he was our best performing defender. Add in the fact that last season he suffered the exact same treatment, surprisingly dropped without any justification after a stellar start to his Rangers career.

SG has kept quiet on the reasons for Katic's disappearance from the last 2 matchday squads and until he does speculation is only going to grow that Katic has taken his demotion badly.

As I said in an earlier thread today all that really matters to me is Rangers winning. SG has the right to pick who he wishes but in certain situations I believe he has to explain his reasoning and I believe this is one, even if only to say Helander and Goldson is his preferred starting centre backs with Katic and Edmundson as back ups.

Good post BB.
 
For all you FM afficionados out there, Helander and Barisic have an instant green line imo, surprising given that Barisic & Katic have the same native tongue.

I'd still like to see a low risk match with a Barisic, Helander, Katic, Tav back four
 
Katic is very good but he does have his flaws. He's a fan favourite because he has a crowd pleasing style and likes flying into tackles/aerial challenges but there's a lot more to defending than that stuff.

He’s a crowd favourite because he was playing well, doing his job and playing a little bit better than his undroppable partner. I’m not sure why Katic is now being painted as an alright defender who cant position himself particularly well or read the game but merely gets extra plaudits for flying into everything and having a more superficially pleasing style. That seems to be the narrative that’s developed, while Goldson can go to sleep, get caught out, get himself in all sorts of bother with bouncing balls and avoid that type of criticism. There’s not much between them and Katic has his own flaws he needs to work on like over committing and getting too tight, but I don’t think everyone is keen to put Goldson under the microscope.

Not having a go at you specifically mate, but I’m seeing a lot of that, ironically there’s always an insinuation that some of us don’t quite understand the art of defending yet those who agree with the gaffer’s switch and make such statements tend to miss a lot of Goldson’s own shortcomings in recent months.
 
Katic is still raw and some of his positional play is poor, He is our best last ditch defender because he tends to be caught out of position.However I feel he will come good over time.
We have a better balance to the team with Helander playing.
 
It's not rocket science.

Helander was brought in because he was seen to make the defence better-he has a good pedigree-time will tell whether he's good enough. In my opinion he looks at least as good as what we have probably better .

Goldson is not perfect but reasonably steady he has had his rocky moments-overall I would place him above Katic.

Katic continues to be both swash buckling and prone to bad errors-a lot we've got away with but has serious potential to go further in the game.

I'm inclined to rely on the manager who sees the stats, the daily training and ability of players.
 
He’s a crowd favourite because he was playing well, doing his job and playing a little bit better than his undroppable partner. I’m not sure why Katic is now being painted as an alright defender who cant position himself particularly well or read the game but merely gets extra plaudits for flying into everything and having a more superficially pleasing style. That seems to be the narrative that’s developed, while Goldson can go to sleep, get caught out, get himself in all sorts of bother with bouncing balls and avoid that type of criticism. There’s not much between them and Katic has his own flaws he needs to work on like over committing and getting too tight, but I don’t think everyone is keen to put Goldson under the microscope.

Not having a go at you specifically mate, but I’m seeing a lot of that, ironically there’s always an insinuation that some of us don’t quite understand the art of defending yet those who agree with the gaffer’s switch and make such statements tend to miss a lot of Goldson’s own shortcomings in recent months.

Goldson makes less errors than NK. There you go in a nutshell.
 
I think the most important thing is we have 4 really good centre halves battling it out for the jersey, this season is gonna be a long one and tire players physically and mentally. Katic had a poor game and had been playing a fair bit fo football sometimes with young guys you have too take them out now and again.

I rate Katic massively, but Helander has strolled those 2 games in my eyes so it's hard to take him out much like when Katic was bossing it up until the livi game.

Expect to maybe see Katic & Edmundson start on wednesday.
 
I love Katic and I have no doubt that Gerrard does aswell but this over the top reaction every time he doesn't play is getting very tiresome. Lost count of how many FreeKatic posts there are on Twitter on every team selection post without him in it.

He's 21 year old and he's played alot of games, important ones at that, with us. He'll continue to do that and hopefully get better and better.
 
I agree that Katic has been better than Goldson this season and didn't deserve to be dropped. However both Katic and Helander both go high up the pitch on occasions to win the ball back. I can see why SG maybe wanted more balance so didn't play them both.
 
We haven't conceded a goal with Helander on the pitch and already people are calling to bring Katic back into the fold.

He's really going to be up against it to win some supporters over. Wonder what the reaction will be like on here if he actually does have a bad game.
This situation seems like a lite version of the Hateley/Johnston/McCoist debate from around 1990.
Our support are demanding Katic be included, like McCoist was before.
The managers feels differently.
The longer Katic is out, the better a player he’ll become.
 
I’m perfectly fine with the Goldson/Helander pairing,I just find it a bit strange Katic was bombed out the squad rather than demoted to the bench?
 
This situation seems like a lite version of the Hateley/Johnston/McCoist debate from around 1990.
Our support are demanding Katic be included, like McCoist was before.
The managers feels differently.
The longer Katic is out, the better a player he’ll become.

Unfortunately in a literal sense, it won’t make him a better player. Even if he gets the odd game against Hamilton or St Mirren I don’t think he’ll be happy with being left out completely in the Europa League again and he’ll end up relaying that to his agent.

Being left out of the squad 2 games running has me thinking he’s perhaps already voiced his displeasure.
 
I feel Helander looks a wee bit suspect against a physical player, especially for his size. Looks to have that key pass between the lines from centre half and very accomplished on the ball. Early days yet but for his size , he doesn't appear to be as physical as goldson or katic.
 
Katic is clearly being managed to build his confidence and stature properly as he’s a young player who, if managed properly, will have a huge career ahead of him. SG conniving to get certain players in the team is utter nonsense. He’s the manager and has no issues at all about playing who he thinks will do the best job, or managing young players properly. I remember him saying when he first came in that one of our young players (can’t remember who) could’ve been ruined by being recklessly thrown in. There’s a reason he’s Rangers manager and not speaking about it on the internet.
 
Katic is clearly being managed to build his confidence and stature properly as he’s a young player who, if managed properly, will have a huge career ahead of him. SG conniving to get certain players in the team is utter nonsense. He’s the manager and has no issues at all about playing who he thinks will do the best job, or managing young players properly. I remember him saying when he first came in that one of our young players (can’t remember who) could’ve been ruined by being recklessly thrown in. There’s a reason he’s Rangers manager and not speaking about it on the internet.

I’m guessing no one should have been questioning Ally, MW or Pedro either?

I also feel daft, because I can’t grasp how dropping him from the squad for the first Europa group game against is helping his confidence.....
 
Hang on a second. Who was the main culprit for that Edouard goal? It wasn’t Katic I can tell you that, him and his defensive partners were dropped in the shit by Goldson, and had a split second decision to make, following Jack when he stepped up. He had a shite game against Livingston, but the question that people keep asking, and so many keep ducking, is why was he then dropped when Goldson has had several ropey games going back into last season?

Katic made just as bad a mistake in that game and Goldsons last ditch block bailed him out.

I like Katic a lot but find the cult like following he has a bit weird, especially when it results in Goldson being targeted for the ridiculous OTT criticism he gets on here
 
Katic made just as bad a mistake in that game and Goldsons last ditch block bailed him out.

I like Katic a lot but find the cult like following he has a bit weird, especially when it results in Goldson being targeted for the ridiculous OTT criticism he gets on here

He did, but Goldson sold the crucial first goal. Goldson isn’t even getting a great deal of criticism, not from me anyway, he doesn’t do much wrong because he’s a pretty solid defender. At the same time we’ve got people talking about Katic against Livingston and Katic away at Hamilton and any of his flaws like he’s some Russell Martin-sequel diddy. It happens on both sides of the debate.

People are just irritated by the fact he has a permanent starting place regardless of form and he’s kept his place ahead of someone who has again been a bit better. It seems perfectly reasonable to question that.
 
He was rag-dolled for their big chance yesterday, but in general he brings an aura of calm to the team. We are lacking in experience and he provides that in spades.
Katic v Helander is a great problem to have.
 
I’m guessing no one should have been questioning Ally, MW or Pedro either?

I also feel daft, because I can’t grasp how dropping him from the squad for the first Europa group game against is helping his confidence.....
Maybe he’s not “dropping” him and he’s actually communicating with him and explaining his reasoning and Katic is actually happy to listen and learn from such a great professional. The idea that Gerrard is sitting desperately hoping someone will have a bad game so he can play someone else is something I’d expect to read from a more unhinged poster than yourself. The manager has no qualms about bombing anybody out, whether it’s for bad performance or for not carrying themselves in the manner he expects of one of his players, and he’d do it with no explanation if he didn’t want to give an explanation. The idea is ludicrous.
 
34 minutes Helander heads the ball right to the feet of O’Halloran, luckily the little mentally challenged missed. Hardly an “impeccable” performance as some of the luvvies on here proclaim.
 
Maybe he’s not “dropping” him and he’s actually communicating with him and explaining his reasoning and Katic is actually happy to listen and learn from such a great professional. The idea that Gerrard is sitting desperately hoping someone will have a bad game so he can play someone else is something I’d expect to read from a more unhinged poster than yourself. The manager has no qualms about bombing anybody out, whether it’s for bad performance or for not carrying themselves in the manner he expects of one of his players, and he’d do it with no explanation if he didn’t want to give an explanation. The idea is ludicrous.

I’d be stunned if Katic is happy to be left out completely on a night like Thursday, he said it hurt to be dropped last season so I don’t think that will have changed.

Why is it ludicrous though? Managers often have favourites, it’s not too uncommon. Goldson retains his place whenever he has poor games and Katic is out of the side the first time he has 2 poor performances in succession. Based on that evidence and the fact he spent so much money on Helander I’d say it’s safe to assume he was more or less waiting for that and felt he couldn’t justify dropping the big man while he was playing so well. I think what happened with Katic last season adds more weight to it too, he was playing well when he was bombed out got Worral, and with the way he played when he got another chance I’d say it’s also safe to assume it knackered his confidence because he looked a nervous wreck and made basic errors he wasn’t making before. That’s how I see it anyway, obviously everyone’s different.
 
I’d be stunned if Katic is happy to be left out completely on a night like Thursday, he said it hurt to be dropped last season so I don’t think that will have changed.

Why is it ludicrous though? Managers often have favourites, it’s not too uncommon. Goldson retains his place whenever he has poor games and Katic is out of the side the first time he has 2 poor performances in succession. Based on that evidence and the fact he spent so much money on Helander I’d say it’s safe to assume he was more or less waiting for that and felt he couldn’t justify dropping the big man while he was playing so well. I think what happened with Katic last season adds more weight to it too, he was playing well when he was bombed out got Worral, and with the way he played when he got another chance I’d say it’s also safe to assume it knackered his confidence because he looked a nervous wreck and made basic errors he wasn’t making before. That’s how I see it anyway, obviously everyone’s different.
Katic doesn’t need to be happy about it to respect the decision and trust that the manager is doing the best for the team and individual. That is what comes with somebody like Steven Gerrard which is something people like Pedro and Murty would never have and something Ally wouldn’t get by being pally.
SG said when he was building the squad that there are no favourites, so he seemed aware back then that managers can fall into that trap, so he’ll be making sure that isn’t a trap that could hamper his own quest for success. For me he seems too ruthlessly single minded to allow it to happen. Look at his handling of the goalkeeper situation, he’ll man manage but he’s certainly not there for a popularity contest imo.
 
Helander should start every game he is fit unless rested. Katic and Goldson should fight out for the other place. Edmundson looked good on the few occasions he's played too.
 
"Goldson made a mistake but..."
"Katic made a mistake but..."
"Helander made a mistake but.."

Honest to f@#k, newsflash, players make mistakes.

I think what's really getting people so pissed off is Katic being left out the last two squads, and more importantly, it's no been leaked why!!
 
It’s only 2 games but it’s been a class decision - so far and I’m a big Katic fan who felt disappointed at the decision.

It is strange he has been out the full squad last 2 games he’s either spit the dummy out or something is wrong to be completely not be included in the last 2 squads.
 
I feel Helander looks a wee bit suspect against a physical player, especially for his size. Looks to have that key pass between the lines from centre half and very accomplished on the ball. Early days yet but for his size , he doesn't appear to be as physical as goldson or katic.
Short memory here?
Livingston was only eight days ago.
Their centre forward gave both our centre backs a torrid time.
 
He did, but Goldson sold the crucial first goal. Goldson isn’t even getting a great deal of criticism, not from me anyway, he doesn’t do much wrong because he’s a pretty solid defender. At the same time we’ve got people talking about Katic against Livingston and Katic away at Hamilton and any of his flaws like he’s some Russell Martin-sequel diddy. It happens on both sides of the debate.

People are just irritated by the fact he has a permanent starting place regardless of form and he’s kept his place ahead of someone who has again been a bit better. It seems perfectly reasonable to question that.
People are irritated because they genuinely believe they know better!.
Goldson has been criticised very heavily for the first septic goal.
He undoubtedly made the error that cost us possession but it was no less than forty yards from our goal and we had two players behind Goldson who cannot be considered faultless.
I can’t believe it’s being suggested that Katic had a split second to make a decision and that’s his defence.
Katic decided to go for the offside call when he could easily have shunted over.
 
He’s a crowd favourite because he was playing well, doing his job and playing a little bit better than his undroppable partner. I’m not sure why Katic is now being painted as an alright defender who cant position himself particularly well or read the game but merely gets extra plaudits for flying into everything and having a more superficially pleasing style. That seems to be the narrative that’s developed, while Goldson can go to sleep, get caught out, get himself in all sorts of bother with bouncing balls and avoid that type of criticism. There’s not much between them and Katic has his own flaws he needs to work on like over committing and getting too tight, but I don’t think everyone is keen to put Goldson under the microscope.

Not having a go at you specifically mate, but I’m seeing a lot of that, ironically there’s always an insinuation that some of us don’t quite understand the art of defending yet those who agree with the gaffer’s switch and make such statements tend to miss a lot of Goldson’s own shortcomings in recent months.

Totally see where you're coming from - above all else I think the main point is that all three are very decent players and over the season should play a good number of games each.
 
I think the current pairing of Goldson/Helander has impressed but bombing Katic out the squad altogether doesn't sit right with me.

This happened last season around this time and the lad took some time to bounce back from it. Very strange yet Goldson is untouchable ?
 
34 minutes Helander heads the ball right to the feet of O’Halloran, luckily the little mentally challenged missed. Hardly an “impeccable” performance as some of the luvvies on here proclaim.

Shaky against that big lump of wood in the first half, but excellent in midweek. As Gerrard said himself different games call for different players. I wonder if the Euro style is better for Helander than Katic. I think an Edmundson Katic pairing on Wednesday would be a good option.
 
Shaky against that big lump of wood in the first half, but excellent in midweek. As Gerrard said himself different games call for different players. I wonder if the Euro style is better for Helander than Katic. I think an Edmundson Katic pairing on Wednesday would be a good option.
id like to see it.
 
It feel that Gerrard was waiting for a weak performance to get Helander in the team. Katic for me has proved to be a great player for us and understand some games we all have poor games (although I didn’t thank it was all that bad). What I would say is that Helander didn’t have the best game today and early signs doesn’t make me feel he’s any better.

While in the topic of Cbs I thought Golson was immense today

Katic can consider himself very unlucky. He's been solid. Helander was always going to come in at some point given the fee involved. He has the jersey,for the moment.

Goldson, for me, is still a worry. He gives up possession far too often. I worry about a lack of pace with the current partnership.

Still, it's good that we have options in that area.
 
So, player dropped for poor performances. It’s not exactly unheard of in football.

Well predicted.
It could and probably should've been Goldson who dropped out if it's solely down to performances. However I never,for a minute, expected Goldson to be the one to make way for Helander.
 
Katic can consider himself very unlucky. He's been solid. Helander was always going to come in at some point given the fee involved. He has the jersey,for the moment.

Goldson, for me, is still a worry. He gives up possession far too often. I worry about a lack of pace with the current partnership.

Still, it's good that we have options in that area.

It's about time he stops his stupid long ball punts his ball possession at times is terrible.
 
Katic was a bomb scare 2nd half v Livi. Not helped by Haliday being very poor beside him.

Goldson and McGregor in particular were have a go at him on a few occasions last Sat. He’s young, we can expect that.

He’ll play his part this season, if we are going to be successful, he’ll have to.

I’ve been very impressed with Katic on the whole this season.

I might be reading too much into it but sharing a flat with Grezda isn’t a great idea for Niko......
Didn’t realise he shared a flat with Grezda.....I think you’ve just nailed the unknown reason why Katic was dropped instead of Goldson as it clearly wasn’t football reasons!
 
It could and probably should've been Goldson who dropped out if it's solely down to performances. However I never,for a minute, expected Goldson to be the one to make way for Helander.

It was always going to be the left sided player who made way, but more importantly Goldson is the better all round player, but there’s no doubt will get better as he gets older.
 
I’m perfectly fine with the Goldson/Helander pairing,I just find it a bit strange Katic was bombed out the squad rather than demoted to the bench?

I believe that's because he's getting Edmunson prepared for Wednesday night at Livingston where I think he'll start alongside Helander.

Gerrard probably didn't want to bring him straight back in from the cold, so got him back in the squad the game before it to ease him in.

Smart move in my opinion, if my assumption is correct of course.
 
Katic had 1 bad game vs Livi....where he had an
Why wasn’t it?
Katic had 1 bad game vs Livi where he had an of then pace Halliday alongside him and Goldson was having a poor game too that day. That’s Katic only poor game....Goldson has had a few poor games. He is dreadful in possession and I lose count how often he gives possession away.

Katic for me is the better player between him and Goldson and I see better value for Rangers in developing and maturing Katic with game time alongside Helander.
 
Unfortunately in a literal sense, it won’t make him a better player. Even if he gets the odd game against Hamilton or St Mirren I don’t think he’ll be happy with being left out completely in the Europa League again and he’ll end up relaying that to his agent.

Being left out of the squad 2 games running has me thinking he’s perhaps already voiced his displeasure.

He's a professional footballer, he shouldn't be happy at not being in the starting eleven. Neither should any player in the squad. If he wanted to go his agent and look for a move, good luck to him, as things stand, he wouldn't get a move to a club even half the size of Rangers.

To put things in perspective, Gerrard has taken Katic out of the team and replaced him with Helander. In those two games, we've seen our most impressive performance of the season and our highest scoring away win. I'll take that, what's best for Rangers takes precedence over a fan favourites happiness and personal development plan.

We've had bigger and better players sitting in the stand than Nikola Katic. He's a 22 year old developing centre half, very few if any of those have been stick on starters in my time watching Rangers. He's got much further to go to make himself indispensable to the starting 11.
 
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