HMRC bill drops by 5.2 million

Homelander

Homelander

Well-Known Member
Latest Rangers’ liquidators credit report shows further drop of £5.2million in what is due to HMRC. June report highlighted the revenue dropping charges totalling £24 million. Total tax claim now stands at £67 million but negotiations ongoing between BDO and HMRC
 
Homelander said:
Latest Rangers’ liquidators credit report shows further drop of £5.2million in what is due to HMRC. June report highlighted the revenue dropping charges totalling £24 million. Total tax claim now stands at £67 million but negotiations ongoing between BDO and HMRC
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Is that £67m including the wee tax case too?
 
Unclear from OP, or just me reading it completely wrong, but is this a further £5.2m drop as well as the previous £24m drop? So almost a drop of £30m!?
 
Anyone able to clarify on what the actual difference is between the original bill delivered pre-Whyte and what the current level is?

That is the key point in the argument I think.
 
The final EBT portion of the bill will end up as £20 million once all of the penalties and fees are removed.

The total bill will be much higher though, because of the PAYE and VAT debt that Craig Whyte accrued with them.

That particular amount will, rightly, be liable for penalties and fees.

Our argument is - and will be going forward - that we would never have been in the position that someone like Craig Whyte could buy the club - and run up such a bill - had HMRC not grossly over exaggerated the EBT bill to begin with.
 
Livibear said:
The final EBT portion of the bill will end up as £20 million once all of the penalties and fees are removed.

The total bill will be much higher though, because of the PAYE and VAT debt that Craig Whyte accrued with them.

That particular amount will, rightly, be liable for penalties and fees.

Our argument is - and will be going forward - that we would never have been in the position that someone like Craig Whyte could buy the club - and run up such a bill - had HMRC not grossly over exaggerated the EBT bill to begin with.
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Correct, that's what I was getting at.

What was the initial EBT bill that landed on Ibrox doorstep?
 
Livibear said:
The final EBT portion of the bill will end up as £20 million once all of the penalties and fees are removed.

The total bill will be much higher though, because of the PAYE and VAT debt that Craig Whyte accrued with them.

That particular amount will, rightly, be liable for penalties and fees.

Our argument is - and will be going forward - that we would never have been in the position that someone like Craig Whyte could buy the club - and run up such a bill - had HMRC not grossly over exaggerated the EBT bill to begin with.
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Done to allow them to be main creditor and reject any deal...
 
Still an un-explained error imposed by highly suspect persons - whatever the final figure
(Outwith the unpaid PAYE total - which if I understand correctly - is easy to calculate)
 
a_weir said:
£68m is still a lot and they would still have been able to veto any CVA, right?
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Yeah, think it would take a monumental shift in the final bill to change anything about that.

The fundamental principle will simply come down to whether the final and correct bill for the EBT element (ie before Whyte got involved) would have been high enough to see the same circumstances where Murray was then railroaded into quickly offloading the club to the only shyster in town who was prepared to take it on with an undefined, yet speculated to be, gargantuan bill hanging over it.

Hypothetically, if Livibear's suggestion ends up correct and the final bill is actually only £20m for that, would Whyte ever have been at Rangers?

Or would other parties have been happy to buy?

Or would we simply have sold a few players/assets and settled the debt?

We'll never know, so ultimately it doesn't change a thing and won't change anyone's stance on what happened.
 
Bluenose1979 said:
Yeah, think it would take a monumental shift in the final bill to change anything about that.

The fundamental principle will simply come down to whether the final and correct bill for the EBT element (ie before Whyte got involved) would have been high enough to see the same circumstances where Murray was then railroaded into quickly offloading the club to the only shyster in town who was prepared to take it on with an undefined, yet speculated to be, gargantuan bill hanging over it.

Hypothetically, if Livibear's suggestion ends up correct and the final bill is actually only £20m for that, would Whyte ever have been at Rangers?

Or would other parties have been happy to buy?

Or would we simply have sold a few players/assets and settled the debt?

We'll never know, so ultimately it doesn't change a thing and won't change anyone's stance on what happened.
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This is the $64,000 question.

Remember, Lloyds were there in the first place due to the greater liabilities of MIH.

I don't think we can say with any certainty that they would have been far more relaxed about a £20m bill on top of the £18m worth of debt we were carrying at the time.

I take the view that Lloyds would probably still have preferred to avoid any further liabilities where Rangers were concerned and continued to pursue a sale, but a more manageable figure (although far from a trifling one) could have seen other less nefarious elements stake an interest in the club.
 
HandsomeHead said:
This is the $64,000 question.

Remember, Lloyds were there in the first place due to the greater liabilities of MIH.

I don't think we can say with any certainty that they would have been far more relaxed about a £20m bill on top of the £18m worth of debt we were carrying at the time.

I take the view that Lloyds would probably still have preferred to avoid any further liabilities where Rangers were concerned and continued to pursue a sale, but a more manageable figure (although far from a trifling one) could have seen other less nefarious elements stake an interest in the club.
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I'd tend to agree. I think Lloyds were already keen to get the club off the books.

I believe a "source close to a prospective buyer" from the time was quoted a few weeks back saying that the main problem for their client was the undefined bill. It wasn't even the size of it that was the problem, it was not knowing how big or small it was. Even a fairly hefty bill might not have put some parties off if they'd at least had it quantified so they could have a management plan for it.

All ifs, buts, maybes and guesswork now though unfortunately.
 
There needs to be an independent enquiry into the way in which the Tax bill was calculated and pursued pre Craig Whyte.

If it is the case that the original liabilities would have been manageable and therefore the club would never have been forced into the hands of corporate criminals, then heads should roll.

Surely we could fund an investigation to get to the root cause of the absolute ransacking of our club. We need to know the answers...

Would the original bill have been manageable if calculated correctly?

Would it have been at such a figure where HMRC and Rangers could have come to an agreement. Be it by paying installments or paying in full at a reduced agreeable amount?

Was the original figure calculated incorrectly by an honest mistake or was it maliciously calculated on purpose to force the club down a dangerous path?

Was there any interference at any point in the Tax investigation into the club by internal or external high ranking influences hell bent of damaging the club?


Unless this issue is kept alive by us, the fans, then I suspect we will never know the true answers to these burning questions.



What I do know is, OUR club was targeted and never stood a chance.
 
The initial HMRC claim is stated as circa £94m. They have now revised that claim downwards and it stands at circa £67.5m.

Of that figure of £67.5m BDO have acknowledged/admitted a sum of just over £3m for the 'wee tax case' and a further circa £13.5m in unpaid VAT, PAYE and NI (courtesy Craig Whyte). A total of close to £16.5m.

Furthermore, the figures of circa £49m (EBT - big tax case), an additional circa £1m (wee tax case) and just over £1m in Inheritance Tax (?) is still being disputed.

A total of just over £51m still in dispute therefore and around £16.5m 'admitted'.

It is also worthy of note that Wavetower have received a pay-out of circa £962k in settlement of their claim in order to avoid ongoing legal costs and the threat of further litigation.

Additionally, BDO are now in a position to pay a further dividend to creditors amounting to 3p in the £. This should come soon and will take creditors payments to a total of 6.9p in the pound since the initial payout was 3.9p in the £.
 
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Valley Bluenose said:
The initial HMRC claim is stated as circa £94m. They have now revised that claim downwards and it stands at circa £67.5m.

Of that figure of £67.5m BDO have acknowledged/admitted a sum of just over £3m for the 'wee tax case' and a further circa £13.5m in unpaid VAT, PAYE and NI (courtesy Craig Whyte). A total of close to £16.5m.

Furthermore, the figures of circa £49m (EBT - big tax case), an additional circa £1m (wee tax case) and just over £1m in Inheritance Tax (?) is still being disputed.

A total of just over £51m still in dispute therefore and around £16.5m 'admitted'.

It is also worthy of note that Wavetower have received a pay-out of circa £962k in settlement of their claim in order to avoid ongoing legal costs and the threat of further litigation.

Additionally, BDO are now in a position to pay a further dividend to creditors amounting to 3p in the £. This should come soon and will take creditors payments to a total of 6.9p in the pound since the initial payout was 3.9p in the £.
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Valley Bluenose said:
The initial HMRC claim is stated as circa £94m. They have now revised that claim downwards and it stands at circa £67.5m.

Of that figure of £67.5m BDO have acknowledged/admitted a sum of just over £3m for the 'wee tax case' and a further circa £13.5m in unpaid VAT, PAYE and NI (courtesy Craig Whyte). A total of close to £16.5m.

Furthermore, the figures of circa £49m (EBT - big tax case), an additional circa £1m (wee tax case) and just over £1m in Inheritance Tax (?) is still being disputed.

A total of just over £51m still in dispute therefore and around £16.5m 'admitted'.

It is also worthy of note that Wavetower have received a pay-out of circa £962k in settlement of their claim in order to avoid ongoing legal costs and the threat of further litigation.

Additionally, BDO are now in a position to pay a further dividend to creditors amounting to 3p in the £. This should come soon and will take creditors payments to a total of 6.9p in the pound since the initial payout was 3.9p in the £.
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To further illustrate HMRC's aggressiveness in this whole issue, in so called wee tax case, a provision was made in 2010 interim accounts for for £1.87m tax plus a further £1m interest. Recently this has been discussed as a total of £6m due to interest and penalties due to Whyte's non payment despite it being part of Share Purchase Agreement 2011 for him to pay this.

All small beer relative to BTC, the point I and others make continually is but for over inflated tax and penalty claims, Whyte would have been nowhere near us.
 
Porto Loyal said:
Bloody hell, someone made a quick killing
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Doubt it amounts to much more than Wavetower's legal fees to be honest - the claim has been in dispute and rumbling on in one form or another since 2012 and there have been various hearings and appeals etc.

Back in the day some posters on here were saying this was the claim that was going to allow Whyte to get all of the club's assets!
 
Marty101 said:
Doubt it amounts to much more than Wavetower's legal fees to be honest - the claim has been in dispute and rumbling on in one form or another since 2012 and there have been various hearings and appeals etc.

Back in the day some posters on here were saying this was the claim that was going to allow Whyte to get all of the club's assets!
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That's what I always notice on these threads, the amount of legal fees. That's some racket.
 
Livibear said:
The final EBT portion of the bill will end up as £20 million once all of the penalties and fees are removed.

The total bill will be much higher though, because of the PAYE and VAT debt that Craig Whyte accrued with them.

That particular amount will, rightly, be liable for penalties and fees.

Our argument is - and will be going forward - that we would never have been in the position that someone like Craig Whyte could buy the club - and run up such a bill - had HMRC not grossly over exaggerated the EBT bill to begin with.
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A concerted effort to end the club imo. You can't over estimate that much as a fucking mistake.
 
Bluenose1979 said:
I'd tend to agree. I think Lloyds were already keen to get the club off the books.

I believe a "source close to a prospective buyer" from the time was quoted a few weeks back saying that the main problem for their client was the undefined bill. It wasn't even the size of it that was the problem, it was not knowing how big or small it was. Even a fairly hefty bill might not have put some parties off if they'd at least had it quantified so they could have a management plan for it.

All ifs, buts, maybes and guesswork now though unfortunately.
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100% correct

No sane investor in the world would touch us at that time.

We were running at a loss and still had a hefty debt to the bank (who were very nervous about the tax bill and wanted their money out before the shit hit the fan and they went into the queue with all the other creditors.

So, even if you bought the club for £1 and paid off the bank their £20m (as was the deal they put their man onto the board to make sure happened) all of a sudden your credit gets whipped away from you as well as no bank would touch us.

So, you outlay £20m and then have to find £1m of your own money per month to keep the club going for say 2 years until the BTC gets resolved (possibly longer)

All of a sudden you find yourself £50m out of pocket and then bang, the tax man wants say £20m (as a conservative estimate) to settle.

Now you are £70m out of pocket, for what? To have something that is still losing money?

If you had £70m to invest, there are lots of less risky, more profitable ventures than buying Rangers at that time.

Only realistic option was buy club, bounce into admin, clear debts and bounce back out, but where do you find someone with the experience to do that effectively?

Step forward Craig Whyte...........
 
Why do we constantly get posts with half the facts , or vague claims which just confuses everybody apart from the ones that just post what they think will happen.....leave that to the poets......
 
Timardim said:
Why do we constantly get posts with half the facts , or vague claims which just confuses everybody apart from the ones that just post what they think will happen.....leave that to the poets......
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The 'facts' about this latest development are summarised in post #21. Or you can download the BDO Report linked in post #24 and have a read for yourself mate.
 
That bill which the media are going with is the extra white the shite added to it, take his off the 64 odd million and u have the real tax owed before that snake took charge.
 
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