How old is old enough?

Very much depends on the individual. Some are ready at 16/17 but others don't fully develop, physically and mentally, till a bit later. I do think that playing regularly at a young age can shorten the length of a player's career if they're not managed very carefully. (Equally, players who miss years through injuries or health problems can sometimes get those years back later in their playing days.) Generally, though, I think we have a culture in Scotland that places far too much value on physicality and strength, and that culture works against younger players. Until we tackle that culture, including the way the game is officiated, we won't make real progress in blooding youngsters earlier.
 
I was expecting this to be another thread about Celtc.

Kids develop at different stages and sadly physicality is a big deal is Scottish football. With half of the hammer throwers, it’s important the kids can handle the physical side of the game.

If they are good enough they are old enough but we also need to make sure that are physically ready, not just skilful.
 
I would hope the 5 sub rules gives Lowry, King etc a chance of being in the bench.
Will Gio start him against Livi if Hagi is out injured?
 
I imagine the reality of it is most just aren't good enough. As much as that might sound negative, I think it's just a statistical fact from every youth team, for every club in every country in every era. Look at the Scotland team that made a European final at under 19s level and how many of them even made it as top flight Scottish footballers. Patterson and Gilmour look like exceptional talents and they've had slightly different paths in going from youth football to full internationals. Some people might think that means more players could do that if given the opportunities but I think they're the standout, exceptions and the rest will more than likely fall down the leagues as the % that make it at the highest level are fairly small. Google says the Ajax Academy has 220 players across 12 youth teams. 2 or 3 of them making the first team looks impressive but 99% of them will probably fall down the leagues and potentially even out of football through luck and/or ability. I think as much as we keep calling it an academy, we're also not quite there yet in providing a rounded youth development experience like you'll probably see more in England now and much more heavily on the continent. I think Hamburg had a place where they live and are educated. The investment levels that have gone into the Ajax Academy aren't there for us. I don't think we're doing that for a number of obvious reasons but at the same time, we're punching above our weight in producing two full internationals from where we were 5-10 years ago.
 
I agree with "you're old enough if you're good enough" but the likes of Lowry and King need to be drip fed into the team otherwise if they play to many games at a young age by the time get to late 20s they may develop biscuit hips.
 
It needs to be done carefully.

Lowry has been playing against Lowland League sides. Last night was a step up against League 2 opposition and he handled it well. That doesnt mean he's ready to start in a top flight league match. I think the only way forward is to start giving our youngsters the chance to come in for cup games (opposition dependent) or come on from the bench and then build up their game time gradually. When everybody is fit then the first question should be whether or not Bacuna on the bench offers anything more than Lowry would? If the answer is that he doesnt then Lowry makes the bench and starts getting involved in bigger games as a sub. He continues to develop to the point where he can start matches.

There's a desire amongst fans to hail any youngster who shows promise as the next coming. You can't take a young player from B team football to top flight football too quickly. Give him more and more exposure to the first team squad and first team game time and evaluate his progress game by game. Same with any youngster.
 
Back in the 60's and 70's teams played young lads if they were considered good enough. Willie Henderson for example played for Rangers at 16. He was playing for Scotland at 18. Derek Ferguson was a regular in the team at 17 and Durrant wasn't much older.
Other young players from that time who spring to mind are Alec Edwards and Peter Cormack who both were regulars for their teams as 17 year olds and went on to have great careers.
Some of those guys were playing even before the substitute rule came in so they were expected to be able to do a full 90 minute game week after week. The substitute rule came in the 1965/66 season and only one was allowed per team. The young guys were not mollycoddled. They were in the team on merit.
Should also have mentioned Denis Law. He was playing for Huddersfield at 16 and for Scotland at 18.
 
Age is something we seem to obsess over in Scotland whereas in most countries if a player is good they'll play them. Look at Barca's team in the last season or two...Ansu Fati (16), Pedri (17), Gavi (17). That's the ages they were when they were first given a chance and it worked out alright.

I'd much rather give someone like Lowry or another youngster a chance than loaning in diddies like Ojo or Zungu.
 
Depends for me. Sometimes you more need luck rather than actual ability to get into the team. Look at LN hagi went off and now everyone is raving about Lowry and wanting him to start midweek.

Sure it took Clyne to get injured at Liverpool for TAA to get into the starting 11
 
Absolute nonsense on the severely limited evidence we've seen.
Bobby Russell was a top top player from the get go.
To mention young Lowry in the same breath at this stage is bonkers.
Talk about getting carried away ffs!
You might not have seen much of the lad but that doesn't mean others haven't. My opinion is that he has the potential to be better than Bobby and yes that is high praise from my perspective but then I have watched a lot of him in various tournaments prior to this year in the Lowland league and he's always been the stand out for me. Interestingly he's highly thought of among his peers in fact many of the youths interviewed when asked who was the best technical player in the youths have mentioned him as the best.

I've said I don't think he's ready for first team football as he still has to fill out. In the last year or so he has taken a fair stretch and is starting to grow into it which will be absolutely necessary if he is to succeed. My opinion is that its time for him to train with the first team and learn the intensity. There's no hyperbole in any of what I'm saying, unlike your reply, its only potential that needs to be managed properly and IMO the Dutch do that better than most.

EDIT: When was the last time you seen a Rangers player first team or other that could hit a ball like this?
 
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we play in Europe against countless 18 and 19 year olds. Perhaps its the physical nature of the Scottish game where the referees still allow physical stature to nullify actual ball playing talent.
 
I grew up reading of players like Alex Scott, Willie Henderson and Jim Forrest coming in to succesful Rangers teams and setting the place alight and I'm old enough to remember Derek Johnstone's winner in 1970 and the way he became a mainstay of the team from that day on. The modern Scottish reluctance to give youth a chance (and also the rejection of some players as being "too wee") has always baffled me. Here's hoping we're changing that attitude because the boy looks like a good 'un in the making and he'll only get better with more games.
Greig , Jardine, Forrest, Wilson, Henderson
Willie J and DJ, Parlane, Ian Ferguson Barry Ferguson all first team by 20yo
The list is endless
 
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I think a players physicality has a bit to do with it ... football in Scotland is a hard road lots men playing if you get my point sadly need to be able to take a few hard kicks without getting discouraged
 
Thought this was supposed to be in The Lounge and was about a different subject entirely when I seen the title.
 
The problem at rangers is that there is pressure on every result which causes managers to be reluctant to go with youth.

While we were down in the lower leagues Celtic had the luxury of being able to play academy players easier as they had no pressure.
 
You might not have seen much of the lad but that doesn't mean others haven't. My opinion is that he has the potential to be better than Bobby and yes that is high praise from my perspective but then I have watched a lot of him in various tournaments prior to this year in the Lowland league and he's always been the stand out for me. Interestingly he's highly thought of among his peers in fact many of the youths interviewed when asked who was the best technical player in the youths have mentioned him as the best.

I've said I don't think he's ready for first team football as he still has to fill out. In the last year or so he has taken a fair stretch and is starting to grow into it which will be absolutely necessary if he is to succeed. My opinion is that its time for him to train with the first team and learn the intensity. There's no hyperbole in any of what I'm saying, unlike your reply, its only potential that needs to be managed properly and IMO the Dutch do that better than most.

EDIT: When was the last time you seen a Rangers player first team or other that could hit a ball like this?
The boy has a chance, don't doubt that for a minute. You can tell a player straight away in these cases. He needs hard work and dedication to compliment his obvious ability. What he doesn't need is hyperbole of the kind you've displayed in your post.
 
Posted in another thread but general question on this. Derek johnstone scored a cup final winner aged 16. Pele scored in a World Cup final aged 17.

Lowry is 19 soon. What’s this over protective need we seem to have about young players? It’s a nonsense to me. Big Hateley said in his book if you want to be a really top player you should be playing regular first team football by that age.

We have a young midfielder who looks to me a cross between big Rabiot at PSG and wee Modric and yet still people want him put back in the B team to play clachnacuddin rovers because he’s not 21 and 14 stone yet. Mental.

I’m not saying start him every week or putting any pressure on him, it’s simply a case of players surely if 18 or over it can’t do any harm to get them into the first team environment and yes actually play some matches.
15 and 364 days is too young!
 
Posted in another thread but general question on this. Derek johnstone scored a cup final winner aged 16. Pele scored in a World Cup final aged 17.

Lowry is 19 soon. What’s this over protective need we seem to have about young players? It’s a nonsense to me. Big Hateley said in his book if you want to be a really top player you should be playing regular first team football by that age.

We have a young midfielder who looks to me a cross between big Rabiot at PSG and wee Modric and yet still people want him put back in the B team to play clachnacuddin rovers because he’s not 21 and 14 stone yet. Mental.

I’m not saying start him every week or putting any pressure on him, it’s simply a case of players surely if 18 or over it can’t do any harm to get them into the first team environment and yes actually play some matches.


Not really fair on Lowry to compare him with someone like Derek Johnstone, who was an absolute phenomenon as a young player at Rangers.

Scoring a cup winning goal, as a 16 year old centre forward, against a Celtic team who'd got beaten in the European Cup Final a few months earlier and then winning a European Final as an 18 year old central defender 2 years later.

He also won 2 trebles, when finishing top scorer in Scotland both seasons, before the age Souttar currently is.

Lowry is an exceptional talent, but as Gio said last night, he still has plenty to learn.

Nobody develops youth talent better than the Dutch.

When he's ready, we'll see him.

Be patient with him though.
 
The problem at rangers is that there is pressure on every result which causes managers to be reluctant to go with youth.

While we were down in the lower leagues Celtic had the luxury of being able to play academy players easier as they had no pressure.

You don't think the likes of Barcelona who I mentioned a wee bit further up the thread have more pressure?
 
Back in the 60's and 70's teams played young lads if they were considered good enough. Willie Henderson for example played for Rangers at 16. He was playing for Scotland at 18. Derek Ferguson was a regular in the team at 17 and Durrant wasn't much older.
Other young players from that time who spring to mind are Alec Edwards and Peter Cormack who both were regulars for their teams as 17 year olds and went on to have great careers.
Some of those guys were playing even before the substitute rule came in so they were expected to be able to do a full 90 minute game week after week. The substitute rule came in the 1965/66 season and only one was allowed per team. The young guys were not mollycoddled. They were in the team on merit.
Should also have mentioned Denis Law. He was playing for Huddersfield at 16 and for Scotland at 18.
Those are some of the best players of their respective generations. I'm sure if we were able to keep a hold of Gilmour he'd have joined them and I remember Fleck and Wilson starting at 16 or so for Rangers as well prior to 2012. Last season or the one before it saw Patterson and Dickson getting debuts so I don't think it's happening any less now than it did at any other point.
 
You don't think the likes of Barcelona who I mentioned a wee bit further up the thread have more pressure?

The difference is that most clubs like Barca have handpicked the best young players from all over the world through their massive scouting networks. Most go out on loan to over la liga teams aswell while ours will be lucky to get a loan at Partick thistle.

As rangers fans we demand success every year and that comes with a pressure. As a result it’s easier to play it safe than take a chance on a young player
 
Couple of general points about player development now v the 60s/70s

1/ Game is much more a test of athleticism nowadays so harder for kids to come straight in at a young age

2/ The league structure when there were only 2 divisions meant there were several games a season against Championship level teams, and the games against the mid-table teams were lacking intensity as they had less to play for and teams weren't set out to play as negatively
 
Posted in another thread but general question on this. Derek johnstone scored a cup final winner aged 16. Pele scored in a World Cup final aged 17.

Lowry is 19 soon. What’s this over protective need we seem to have about young players? It’s a nonsense to me. Big Hateley said in his book if you want to be a really top player you should be playing regular first team football by that age.

We have a young midfielder who looks to me a cross between big Rabiot at PSG and wee Modric and yet still people want him put back in the B team to play clachnacuddin rovers because he’s not 21 and 14 stone yet. Mental.

I’m not saying start him every week or putting any pressure on him, it’s simply a case of players surely if 18 or over it can’t do any harm to get them into the first team environment and yes actually play some matches.
I agree.
It need not be a matter of gradual promotion through the ranks, If a sixteen-year-old looks to be capable enough then give them the opportunity.
Good players can play it is usually that simple.
Young Lowry eased into the match and played sensibly because he has game intelligence as well as good feet.
Tellingly he scored against a packed defence by passing the ball accurately into the net and not attempting to blast it.
The boy can play football.
 
Was Rooney not playing regularly at 16? I think you need to be a special talent and some things go your way, such as injuries to other players.

Rooney and Michael Owen were the two I was thinking of.

Playing regularly at such a young age meant they were both done by the time they hit 30. Gerrard to a lesser extent also declined dramatically at 30.
 
If your good enough then you are old enough.
This

Lowry probably isn't ready to start for us

But I wouldn't be opposed to giving him some time of the bench against SPL jobbers and see how he fares. He's already shown he can be composed infront of large crowds - let's see how he fares against better teams and go from there.

Age isn't a factor, ability is, so let's slowly work him into the team and see how it goes. Work on his weaknesses and get him starting if he reaches that ability. If not we sell and move on. But age should never really come into the equation outside of any laws. We messed up with Gilmour, Patterson was screwed because we he played in the same position as Tav, let's go for third time lucky and fast track this boy and let him prove his ability.
 
Rooney and Michael Owen were the two I was thinking of.

Playing regularly at such a young age meant they were both done by the time they hit 30. Gerrard to a lesser extent also declined dramatically at 30.

Depends on the player. Owen relied on his pace then done his hamstrings quite early in his career if I remember right.

Messi and Ronaldo both played regularly since 17 but looked after themselves and still play at the highest level.
 
If you watch the EPL you see 17 18 19 year olds in nearly every team
Just watched Everton villa plenty of young players on show The boy Gordon who came on was fantastic
It’s a Scottish football thing one mistake and that’s it
Our fans love a whipping boy
 
Was Rooney not playing regularly at 16? I think you need to be a special talent and some things go your way, such as injuries to other players.
100% and physical development plays a huge part too, Rooney for example wasn't your average 16 year old.

Players peak at different times as well just like Rooney who’s fitness/body type caught up with him when he got older
 
Yep.

Posted before but there seems to be some mythology with regards Ferguson, people have it in their heads he was a 17 year old plucked from the academy.

In actual fact, he was 20 years and wanting to leave before Advocaat gave him his chance.
Common knowledge he was 20 tbh, never heard anyone say different I don't think
 
Why then the numerous comments saying “ he’s not ready he’s too young” and demanding he’s put back in the B team?
My feeling that he is not ready for first team SPFL football is based on what he showed last night, especially physicality, nothing to do with age.
 
I think it's more about how much game time will he get in the first team. When the squads fully fit he might not even make the bench. I liked the look of him, really composed with a trick in him. But he needs to play.
 
Not really fair on Lowry to compare him with someone like Derek Johnstone, who was an absolute phenomenon as a young player at Rangers.

Scoring a cup winning goal, as a 16 year old centre forward, against a Celtic team who'd got beaten in the European Cup Final a few months earlier and then winning a European Final as an 18 year old central defender 2 years later.

He also won 2 trebles, when finishing top scorer in Scotland both seasons, before the age Souttar currently is.

Lowry is an exceptional talent, but as Gio said last night, he still has plenty to learn.

Nobody develops youth talent better than the Dutch.

When he's ready, we'll see him.

Be patient with him though.
At no point did I compare DJ to Lowry mate, I don’t know where youve picked up on that.

I mentioned a couple of players off the top of my head from a different era who were regular first team footballers at a young age and also mark Hateleys point that players remaining cosseted within modern academy systems until they are 21 isn’t necessarily good for their development.
 
I grew up reading of players like Alex Scott, Willie Henderson and Jim Forrest coming in to succesful Rangers teams and setting the place alight and I'm old enough to remember Derek Johnstone's winner in 1970 and the way he became a mainstay of the team from that day on. The modern Scottish reluctance to give youth a chance (and also the rejection of some players as being "too wee") has always baffled me. Here's hoping we're changing that attitude because the boy looks like a good 'un in the making and he'll only get better with more games.
I’m old enough too, and your memory’s playing tricks.

DJ scored that goal in 1970, but he didn’t become a regular until 1972-73.
 
Age is irrelevant, it's just a number.
Physical development is more important.

DJ was a physical specimen at 16, others take longer to develop.
Even physical development is something we should look at closer. I mean, were iniesta, xavi or Messi ever ‘physical specimens’? Luca Modric made the Scotland midfield look like wee boys in the summer. I don’t think he tackled in the entire match.
 
At no point did I compare DJ to Lowry mate, I don’t know where youve picked up on that.

I mentioned a couple of players off the top of my head from a different era who were regular first team footballers at a young age and also mark Hateleys point that players remaining cosseted within modern academy systems until they are 21 isn’t necessarily good for their development.


As I said in my previous post mate, Dutch coaches aren't known for stifling youth talent.

If he's good enough, then he'll get his chances.

Gio works with him every day and if he says he's still got a lot to learn, then let's give him the space to develop into the player we think he can become.
 
As I said in my previous post mate, Dutch coaches aren't known for stifling youth talent.

If he's good enough, then he'll get his chances.

Gio works with him every day and if he says he's still got a lot to learn, then let's give him the space to develop into the player we think he can become.
Here’s hoping that’s the case mate. It really would be so refreshing to see the end of dud squad filler signings like barker and Simpson and instead see some of our own young players integrated into the first team matchday squad.
 
Posted in another thread but general question on this. Derek johnstone scored a cup final winner aged 16. Pele scored in a World Cup final aged 17.

Lowry is 19 soon. What’s this over protective need we seem to have about young players? It’s a nonsense to me. Big Hateley said in his book if you want to be a really top player you should be playing regular first team football by that age.

We have a young midfielder who looks to me a cross between big Rabiot at PSG and wee Modric and yet still people want him put back in the B team to play clachnacuddin rovers because he’s not 21 and 14 stone yet. Mental.

I’m not saying start him every week or putting any pressure on him, it’s simply a case of players surely if 18 or over it can’t do any harm to get them into the first team environment and yes actually play some matches.
16 …./ or is that for the wrong thread
 
Here’s hoping that’s the case mate. It really would be so refreshing to see the end of dud squad filler signings like barker and Simpson and instead see some of our own young players integrated into the first team matchday squad.


Barker was always a strange signing for me.

He was no better than ordinary at Hibs and was constantly in and out of their team.

Simpson I knew nothing about, other than being an ex England under 21 international.
 
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