I’ve Stopped My Club 1872 Contributions In Light Of The Proposed King Shares Puchase

This full DK - C1872 share sell should not have been agreed/ initiated until the end of the season and C1872 should have conducted a survey to get a feeling on the uptake from existing members, as it would’ve given a decent snapshot of how it would be received generally.

Personally, I am a life member of C1872 however, I will not be contributing to the legacy membership - I would have been more content to double my meagre 16k personal share holding and purchase directly from DK..... I’m sure many, many others would feel the same.

I’m fully aware we’re a broad church with varying individual circumstances, hence the reasoning for this concept to have been better thought out and executed.
 
If you read DKs statement and recent statements he has been finding it difficult to have any hands on involvement these days from S.A. He is aware of his age, his mortality and his family can’t be guaranteed to have the same commitment that he has. He wants his shares to go to people with the same love for the club as he has.
Would the op be happier if he sold them to someone like say, Mike Ashley or to fans who live and breathe Rangers?
 
I don’t think Dave King has done this on a whim.this has probably taken months of negotiations.i Joined the rst as soon as it started I was on the board of it for the first couple of years and ultimately this was the dream to have enough shares have a voice at decisions made about the club at boardroom level.i wish club1872 well but they will have to change there governance structure and get people in who have serious business heads on them in.
 
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Coatbridge Chancellor said:
You've said the board knew nothing about the announcement until just before it was released. I'll take that a face value and believe it.
If you know, are the directors in favour or against this idea? If you can say.
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I think they see Club 1872 as a reliable and regular source of investment into the club are are disappointed that this will dry up as they focus on buying DK’s shares.
 
I’ve had time to think about this over the last few days and I just don’t think the proposal is the right thing to do or the right time to do it. Firstly we are in a period of accelerated growth where we know already the main investors are going to need to put a lot of money in which means any shares bought from King will be diluted down anyway.

They will be trying to raise the money in a post corona world where a lot of people are going to be feeling the financial impact, donating to this is not going to be a priority for a lot of people.

Finally I just don’t see the appetite for this in general, to raise £13m almost the entire support would need to feel strongly that this is the way forward, I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone that rushing out to invest their £650. I don’t see them raising more than a few million

What i think club1872 should have done is worked with the board to say they want to be involved in the share issues needed to raise money over the next few years. If the money was directly going to the club then a lot more people would be interested.
 
Papasmurf said:
I have many thoughts on this. Based on personal experiences. But the overriding question I have is, why now?

Things are going so well, on and off the park, could this not wait until the summer?
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I think the timing of it is just in case things don’t go the way we want it to go.

Then announcing this plan in the summer people would laugh, call and name it all the things under the sun if we never won the league title, it wouldn’t even get more than a few thousands committing to it.

I just can’t help but think it’ll be a disaster with in fighting and people chasing a blazer and I don’t agree with the timing either it’s totally wrong IMO.
 
sherbrook_loyal said:
After much deliberation, I’ve decided to no longer contribute to Club 1872.

I don’t think that it’s too much of a stretch to say that recent announcements are a bit of a kick in the teeth to our current wealthy investors, who are all loyal supporters like you and I.

If I’d invested the sums of money these shareholders had, I’d be concerned that a fans’ group could soon have a majority say in the club I’ve heavily invested in.

For me, the not inconsiderable sum of £13 million would do a lot more good going to the club than any individual.
And I say that as a big Dave King fan.

That the Club 1872 fans’ group seems to be extremely poorly run would only add to my concerns.

As someone who has contributed each month to Club 1872 for a long time, the King news just doesn’t sit right with me.

Club 1872 members were polled recently to ascertain interest in a much smaller shares purchase, yet there is no such similar poll for a potentially much larger purchase.
How can this be?

Our club desperately needs money – and, as a Club 1872 member, I’d far rather our money went towards new shares, so the £13 million that has been suggested goes to the club.

And I’m quite sure the current board would be very receptive to such a move.

King has every right to sell his shares – and I’ll be eternally grateful for all his efforts – but I think this is a terrible move.

I trust King enough to be able to sell his shares to other investors who would have RFC’s best interests at heart.

Apologies if this seems overly dramatic, but I can no longer support Club 1872 on this new path they’ve chosen without even consulting members.

Any money I’ll be spending from now on will exclusively be going direct to the club.

I appreciate some may think this is a ‘look at me’ post – it’s not... and I also appreciate that some may question the need for a new thread – but I think that people deciding to walk away from Club 1872 in light of recent events is reason enough for a thread in its own right.

Anyone else feel similar?
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No I don’t feel similar as until we get more information and in particular the thoughts of our other major investors then I’m not going to jump the gun with such a gesture. As a fan owner of shares and a contributor to Club 1872 I will take my time before deciding what to do to benefit Rangers.
 
Eternally grateful to Dave King for his rescue etc, but having reflected on this I will not be increasing my monthly payments for reasons I have stated earlier in this thread.If his love for the club is as strong as we believe, could he not have structured a plan, for example, where Club 1872 get his shares and are allowed to pay the 13 million over 10/20 years with interest.He still gets his money, albeit over a longer period and he or his benefactors still have the assurance of future monies.

Perhaps I'm missing the obvious.Maybe some of the ships wise men can explain in better than I can though.
 
I was a member of the RST in the past but I’ve never jumped onto the lub1872 bandwagon.

as a support we are quite fractured especially when it comes to what’s good for the club. I have never appreciated Club1872 banning Rangers fans on Twitter who have either said something they disliked or disagreed with. It never showed maturity then and if they get 25% then the infighting that could occur would cause more harm than good to the running of our club.

The timing stinks for me as well, but then the AGM may have something to do with it.
 
My mate phoned me last night to say he had cancelled his monthly subscription because the Club 1872 email says all funds are going to be diverted to the legacy project. He has been paying in since the beginning believing his money was being given to the club.
I think this could have been handled better by allowing existing members to continue to invest in new shares and have a new fund to buy DK shares.
It looks like Club 1872 are going to lose some long term existing contributors and I am torn as to whether I join them.
 
dublinbluenose said:
I don’t think Dave King has done this on a whim.this has probably taken months of negotiations.i Joined the rst as soon as it started I was on the board of it for the first couple of years and ultimately this was the dream to have enough shares have a voice at decisions made about the club at boardroom level.i wish club1872 well but they will have to change there governance structure and get people in who have serious business heads on them in.
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True - so why are C1872 members only hearing about it when the deal is done ?
 
I’ve struggled with the fan ownership model since it was first mooted twenty odd years ago when the RST started up. But the aim of it is surely to have increased fan ownership of the club. This is the biggest opportunity that the fans group will have to progress that, I don’t see why they wouldn’t go for it.
 
Chris Jack's piece today:

THE message of 'never again' was key to Dave King six years ago. On Tuesday night, he emphasised it once more and ensured the words would be backed up by actions.

His decision to sell his major shareholding in Rangers to Club 1872 is his final parting gift to supporters. It will be King's legacy at Ibrox.

King's work rebuilding Rangers is done and now he has the chance to leave the club, his club, to those that will care about it most. Rangers will rest in the hands of the fans.

The cost to Club 1872 will be around £13million but the opportunity they now have is priceless. It is now or never, a once in a lifetime moment to preserve and protect their club for generations to come.

If King had wanted to cash in to the highest bidder, he would have been able to sell his 20.37 per cent stake for considerably more. Indeed, he believes the shares are currently worth around 50p each, which could see him recoup up to £33million if an alternative buyer was to be found at a higher level.

But his relationship with Club 1872 and his belief that supporters should have a key stake in RIFC plc is behind his decision to give the fan organisation the first chance to acquire his stake.

It will make Club 1872 - currently the sixth largest shareholders at Ibrox - by far and away the largest stakeholders in Rangers.

For comparison, chairman Douglas Park currently holds around 12 per cent of the shares, while long-term investor George Taylor has just under 10 per cent. Stuart Gibson, who invested £5million as part of a share issue earlier this year, has a seven per cent holding and the likes of Julian Wolhardt, John Bennett, Barry Scott and George Letham make up the remainder of the key money men at present.

The crucial number for Club 1872 here is 25. That is the percentage they have worked towards achieving since their formation and the purchase of King's 66 million shares will take them beyond that significant threshold.

That gives them the power to veto boardroom decisions and ultimately ensures Rangers will never again be owned by a single individual. If anyone fails to see the significance of that, then they have extremely short memories.

There will be those that rightly say they have full trust in the current Rangers board and complete faith that they will always do right by the club given their financial and emotional investments. Their generosity and their feeling for Rangers cannot be questioned and those that continue to fund their club deserve enormous gratitude from their fellow supporters.

But the Ibrox crowd cannot be complacent and it would be reckless to not make the most of the opportunity that King has given them and secure the long-term future of Rangers.

The intentions of those that make the decisions and that sign the cheques are not in doubt, but this deal is about life after this current regime and Rangers fans know better than most that nothing stays the same forever.

With 25 per cent of the shares under the control of Club 1872, the heartache of 2012 cannot be repeated. There can be no Craig Whyte like figure, no one-man wrecking ball at Ibrox.

If that is not a reason to complete this deal, then what is?

King has now made the dream a reality. Think back to the dark days of 2012, to the times where fans were fearing for the very existence of their club, their institution, rather than thinking of European runs and title wins.

In 1996, there were few dissenting voices towards Sir David Murray. Come 2006, his stewardship was under serious scrutiny and by 2016 his reputation was in tatters.

Things change in football and in business but Rangers fans must always be the one constant.
Increasing their influence is no condemnation on those at Ibrox. Instead, it is confirmation of the supporters' loyalty to Rangers and a chance to secure it for the next generation of fans.

Rangers must become self-sustaining financially and the need for external investment has to lessen in the coming years. Rather than benefactors plugging gaps, revenues will continue to rise and prize money and player trading will become more significant parts of the business model for Rangers.

This arrangement is not about fan ownership, it is about fan influence. Given everything that they have gone through and everything they have done for their club, it is only right that the Rangers support have their voice heard and this deal, with a boardroom seat surely set to follow, provides them that opportunity going forward.

King's shareholding gave him a degree of power and leverage whilst he was chairman, but he didn't singlehandedly run Rangers and that is not what Club 1872 will do either.

This isn't a novelty scheme where punters pick the colour of the strips and decide who the new manager is going to be.

Football decisions will be made by the football department and business decisions made by the executive team. For once, though, the fans can have a seat round the boardroom table rather than be left pointlessly peering in from the outside.

The bill of £13million is significant and only time will tell if it is achievable. New 'legacy' memberships have been launched as fans are asked to donate £500 either as a one-off or via monthly payments and King's shares will be sold off in tranches over the next three years.

With around 20,000 members required, it is a big ask for Club 1872 to treble their support and raise the funds. But it is now or never and the backing of King stands as a vote of confidence in the organisation and fan base.

Dave King helped save Rangers. Now is the time for fans to protect Rangers.
 
daven37 said:
Said before Club 1872 will split into factions and when one faction doesnt get their way they will walk away and cash flow becomes an issue.


Help me out here GL mate as my head is spinning with this.

Was that not the whole point of C1872 setting up in the first place? This veto would stop any possibility of what happened in the recent past happening again - or am I missing something again?

I think we really need to know what DK's plan B is if C1872 don't get the required funds to buy all or at least a significant amount of his shares.



I think I understand and probably agree where you are coming from, I have to ask when you signed up to contribute to C1872, did you do so in the hope they would one day become the biggest shareholder?

If so, how did you think they would manage that without buying shares off other shareholders instead of acquiring shares that Rangers directly benefits from?

Not at all having a go here - trying to educate myself and understand the thinking as I am clueless with anything relating to shares.
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Only my opinion. The premise behind C1872 is a good idea and in a perfect world all fans would work towards the same goal but unfortunately our fan base, as I suppose others, can be fractured on simple things like the colour scheme and cost of a hoody let alone the decisions on how the club is run.
As can be seen by the infighting at C1872 already , which I can see ramping up over next 3 years in push to secure shares, I am not sure that level of shareholding will be best in the long run.
I hope I am wrong and for the sake of our club I hope we as a fan base can unite. It would be great to have a fans rep on the board but I have reservations as to the mechanics and longevity of C1872 going forward.
 
Desert Loyal said:
In a nutshell.

This is about his money and he wants it back and this looks like the easiest and most tolerable way for him to do it.

I always thought when he "stepped down" there was more to it and felt it was in some way tied to SD and the fatman fucking off. He has been so quiet since leaving which struck me also.

As for the fan ownership, in theory it's a good thing however fans buying shares themselves as opposed to a group representing the fans should be the idea.

c1872 having the majority shareholding puts off any future investors imo.

DK (billionaire) should have handed off some shares to c1872 and sold the rest to fans or other investors (current or new), this is suspect to me, maybe he is skint.
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So he’s selling them cut price because he is skint? Some of the pish on here belongs on a Phil blog.
 
iaatpies said:
The club could get lucky and the buyer could be a Saudi royal.

It could be the next David Murray.

Best case scenario is that it's another lifelong fan who wants to own a controlling interest in the club but who isn't going to repeat David Murray's mismanagement. Worst case scenario? Chuck Glazer? Stan Kroenke? Charles Green?

As a supporter of the German 50% +1 model I'd be very concerned about the next David Murray appearing in the distance.
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Especially with the Club having no bank debt and getting back into a position of stability it would be rich picking for the vultures.
 
I'd much rather club 1872 rasing £13 million to fill the funding gap, rather than buy shares. Nothing about this sounds good to me..
 
Tagsbear said:
With so many intent on poisoning the well it definitely won’t.
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I remember walking to the rst agm where I was to be elected.walking with my mate (Abb) who was already on the board.he said to me “be prepared to be slaughtered by some of our own support”
The ultimate goal of the rst and now club1872 is what has been offered by Dave King and before the ink is dry and a single share bought its out with the innuendos and an attempt to kill it before it even gets off the ground
 
imager said:
Especially with the Club having no bank debt and getting back into a position of stability it would be rich picking for the vultures.
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The club needs £22m in funding in the next 2 years, yet c1872 are giving £13m to King. Certainly not fully stable just yet.
 
dublinbluenose said:
I remember walking to the rst agm where I was to be elected.walking with my mate (Abb) who was already on the board.he said to me “be prepared to be slaughtered by some of our own support”
The ultimate goal of the rst and now club1872 is what has been offered by Dave King and before the ink is dry and a single share bought its out with the innuendos and an attempt to kill it before it even gets off the ground
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It's been off the ground for 3 years +. What have they done in that time?
 
imager said:
What, and I hope it doesn’t happen, if DKs health fails and his family sell off his shareholding on the open market?
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I dont see that, i am quite sure his wife / lawyer knows the score and has their instructions.
DK isnt that old anyway, doesnt carry weight and a non smoker.
Quite sure Dave has plenty years in front of him.
 
I actually cancelled on Sunday before all of this due to the lack of information recently.

As mentioned elsewhere - the most recent updates and minutes on the website are now a number of years old. I really wasn’t sure where my money was going or what was happening to it anymore.
 
What about further share issues, C1872 will not have the necessary funds to buy.
So before you know it the shares will be diluted again.
Why would shareholders hand over millions to buy new players or keep the club in the black and in the same instance have less say than C1872 who can give very little.
 
Kilsyth Unionist said:
What about further share issues, C1872 will not have the necessary funds to buy.
So before you know it the shares will be diluted again.
Why would shareholders hand over millions to buy new players or keep the club in the black and in the same instance have less say than C1872 who can give very little.
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Thats a situation that simply cannot continue. Nobody is going to keep giving Rangers millions of pounds forever.
 
CoopBlue said:
I've never put a penny in the direction of Club1872 and I have no intention of ever doing so.

If fans have a spare £13m kicking about over the next two or three years I would much rather it go into the club via merchandise, tickets and other revenue increasing areas.
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I dont contribute either, for what ? to help charities or buy mobile scooters.
Why was there never from anybody invited to attend board meetings .
And why accept that.
I have met some of them and its ma baw and your not getting a shot.
 
Just trying to add a little perspective. If the £13m was an outstanding loan from the banks they now want back in the next 3 years, with no other investors on the horizon, would it be a different call for anyone? How about if the £13m was to get shot of Ashley and the spivs? King has effectively been the bank and the one to get the leeches off our backs. As a way of thanking fans for their support, leaves them a large controlling interest and a vehicle to further invest or quickly bail out the club if ever needed in the future. He recognises he won’t always be there but the fan base will, who can be turned to in times of need, if they would be so kind to repay the loan. If not, someone else will and the opportunity of security is lost. Are we all Dave King or not?
 
Kilsyth Unionist said:
So in theory we need to develop some players and sell on every season or wages will suffer.
Guys like SG wont hang around.
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Meant to say we wont be able to offer good wages to attract players.
SG has attracted players due to his name/ standing.
A bit like Souness in theory.
This is a backward step imo
 
Kilsyth Unionist said:
What about further share issues, C1872 will not have the necessary funds to buy.
So before you know it the shares will be diluted again.
Why would shareholders hand over millions to buy new players or keep the club in the black and in the same instance have less say than C1872 who can give very little.
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Why will they not have the necessary funds to buy. The contributions don't just stop at the £13m.

The £10 a month donation continues as normal when the total raised for King's shares is met as far as I'm concerned

20,000 putting a tenner a month in puts £2.4m in the club every single year which can either be used for share purchases or other schemes.
 
Kilsyth Unionist said:
So in theory we need to develop some players and sell on every season or wages will suffer.
Guys like SG wont hang around.
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That's exactly the situation. The guys on the Board cannot keep pumping tens of millions in every year and nor are they likely to find a new benefactor willing to do so when their own well runs dry. In all honesty its a wholly unsustainable and barking mad business strategy in any case. I'm sure you realise that.
 
Wilkinsvolley said:
I think the fact the club is in a healthy position is a stumbling block. When we were hours from the stadium being sold for a loan we’d all have given both our nuts to get these shares. Short memories.
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I don't think you can accuse fans of having short memories when most of us paid up front for season tickets in the knowledge that we probably won't be at Ibrox this season.
 
Kilsyth Unionist said:
So in theory we need to develop some players and sell on every season or wages will suffer.
Guys like SG wont hang around.
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Yes.

Its not a theory. It's reality. No business can survive on endless director loans underwriting significant losses. Eventually the generous directors run out of money they can throw at the club. Eventually they move on.

Rangers has to be self financing. It has to be able to stand on it's own with minimal underwriting of losses. Eventually you run out of other people's money.
 
Purplestar said:
As a Rangers supporter for nearly 50 years I have never felt that I ever needed anyone like Club 1872 to speak on my behalf.

Now I feel quite concerned about this move as we have all seen the disagreements between fans groups over the years and we can't afford this to be taken into the board room if it would harm the club.

At some point someone in Club 1872 will , over the piece , think that they have the right to be the number 1 kiddie and that's when the problems start.

Hopefully further clarification is not far away.
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Unity is certainly not our strength.
 
I don't know how people can say that Club 1872 having 25% of the shares safeguards the club.

If the C1872 board are able to agree to purchase £13m worth of shares without consulting members then what else do they have the power to do?
 
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davmcc said:
I don't know how people can say that Club 1872 having 25% of the shares safeguards the club.

If the C1872 board are able to agree to purchase £13m worth of shares without consulting members then what else do they have the power to do?
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This is a really simple answer.

Any share purchase must be approved by the club 1872 membership. So if we manage to raise £13m then before it gets handed over a majority must vote for it.

Club 1872 is. CIC, a community interest charity, it’s bound by the law. It’s bound by the rules set up to govern it and those rules can only be changed with a majority decision and any spending can only be by a majority decision of the membership.

If this is your only fear, you are miles off base and having nothing to worry about.
 
Kilsyth Unionist said:
Meant to say we wont be able to offer good wages to attract players.
SG has attracted players due to his name/ standing.
A bit like Souness in theory.
This is a backward step imo
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We need to be self sufficient.

2 ways of doing this -

1. Increase player sales to balance the books
2. Reduce costs to balance the books

Buying cheap, developing and improving then selling on is the only way to go IMO.
 
I have a very modest personal share holding purchased during the Green era. What's the benefit of C1872 memebership for me rather than retaining my personal shares? Genuine question and not having a pop - I simply don't know what C1872 do. Anyone enlighten ?
 
iaatpies said:
Yes.

Its not a theory. It's reality. No business can survive on endless director loans underwriting significant losses. Eventually the generous directors run out of money they can throw at the club. Eventually they move on.

Rangers has to be self financing. It has to be able to stand on it's own with minimal underwriting of losses. Eventually you run out of other people's money.
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The people that put money in, kept the club going till seasons like we are in and got rid of the spivs.
Laura fawkes cant do that and had zero business experience.
To me it will scare off any far east investors.
 
dentalbear said:
We need to be self sufficient.

2 ways of doing this -

1. Increase player sales to balance the books
2. Reduce costs to balance the books

Buying cheap, developing and improving then selling on is the only way to go IMO.
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Sounds great, but we have virtually never done that.
All the players valuations that we think of on FF are what we think off.
Looking ahead our management team likely wont be there in 5 years.
 
Kilsyth Unionist said:
Sounds great, but we have virtually never done that.
All the players valuations that we think of on FF are what we think off.
Looking ahead our management team likely wont be there in 5 years.
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So we need to adapt and change and have a sustainable business model.

Constantly running at a loss is (obviously) unsustainable.

We should already be planning for SG et al leaving, and given Ross Wilson's history of succession planning at Southampton I'm relatively confident he will have a plan in place.
 
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