If Souness had rejected us in 1986...

My memory of Graeme Souness taking over was the day after we played Spurs at Ibrox on a Sunday..unless my memory is playing tricks with me.
It was a lamentable performance with Jock Wallace not only apologising to the fans but to Spurs too,that's how bad it was!.
The next day right out of the blue (no pun intended!) it was the headline opener for Scotland Today.Jim White reporting that Jock Wallace had been sacked and Graeme Souness was the new manager.I remember my brother was having a shower and I was battering the door to tell him :D.
BBC Scotland news had Archie McPherson in the studio being dragged in en route to an awards evening suited and booted for his opinion.
He said back then that we would sign anyone regardless of their religion as Graeme Souness basically wouldn't want to have one arm tied round his back.
It was absolutely massive news,to say it was an exciting to be a Rangers fan is an understatement!.
We were linked to so many big names,some were ridiculous tbh and the rumour mill in Glasgow was working overtime.
One of my abiding memories was David Holmes after the press conference being asked how he felt. He said 'I need to bite into a lemon to take the smile off my face'.
It cannot be underestimated what David Holmes did for Rangers,he was the reason for the Souness Revolution and we as a support can't thank him enough for his part in out history.
I was delighted to see he was at a civic reception for our 150th anniversary and looking so well.
Apparently Lawrence Marlborough asked him what his plan was after he assessed us for a spell,David Holmes told him he was going to approach Graeme Souness to be our new manager to which he replied...Good luck!!.
On a side note,I remember a report in the Daily Express in 1984 saying the success of the Rangers Pools meant the stadium would be paid for earlier and in time we would have money to spend on players,I certainly didn't what would happen in a few years time!!.
 
We, as a club where ready to rise again and if it wasn’t Souness it would have been someone else as driven to succeed. Who that would have been I haven’t a clue but David Holmes would have found them.

The time was right for us to reclaim our place and I firmly believe that would have happened regardless of the manager.
 
Delboy1962 said:
My memory of Graeme Souness taking over was the day after we played Spurs at Ibrox on a Sunday..unless my memory is playing tricks with me.
It was a lamentable performance with Jock Wallace not only apologising to the fans but to Spurs too,that's how bad it was!.
The next day right out of the blue (no pun intended!) it was the headline opener for Scotland Today.Jim White reporting that Jock Wallace had been sacked and Graeme Souness was the new manager.I remember my brother was having a shower and I was battering the door to tell him :D.
BBC Scotland news had Archie McPherson in the studio being dragged in en route to an awards evening suited and booted for his opinion.
He said back then that we would sign anyone regardless of their religion as Graeme Souness basically wouldn't want to have one arm tied round his back.
It was absolutely massive news,to say it was an exciting to be a Rangers fan is an understatement!.
We were linked to so many big names,some were ridiculous tbh and the rumour mill in Glasgow was working overtime.
One of my abiding memories was David Holmes after the press conference being asked how he felt. He said 'I need to bite into a lemon to take the smile off my face'.
It cannot be underestimated what David Holmes did for Rangers,he was the reason for the Souness Revolution and we as a support can't thank him enough for his part in out history.
I was delighted to see he was at a civic reception for our 150th anniversary and looking so well.
Apparently Lawrence Marlborough asked him what his plan was after he assessed us for a spell,David Holmes told him he was going to approach Graeme Souness to be our new manager to which he replied...Good luck!!.
On a side note,I remember a report in the Daily Express in 1984 saying the success of the Rangers Pools meant the stadium would be paid for earlier and in time we would have money to spend on players,I certainly didn't what would happen in a few years time!!.
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Jim white said on talkSPORT either yesterday or today that he received a call from Souness saying if he met up with on Monday afternoon he’d give him an exclusive. Ties in with what you said although could be white changing history to boost his ego. Lol
 
At the time and for those of us who were going home and away every week this was a sensational appointment. It was beyond belief.
The players we were being linked with was off the scale and when we signed the England captain from that seasons World Cup, a man at his peak we just knew the club had turned on its head in a positive way. It was an incredible feeling.
We got to Manchester and last seasons EL Final, the excitement kinda came and went in a few weeks each time , the euphoria of the Souness appointment never went away as the old firm wins started to mount, Aberdeen were put in their place and the trophies started to roll in.
Anyone who lived through this at the time couldn't contemplate any other managerial scenario.
 
Dalmuirbear said:
We, as a club where ready to rise again and if it wasn’t Souness it would have been someone else as driven to succeed. Who that would have been I haven’t a clue but David Holmes would have found them.

The time was right for us to reclaim our place and I firmly believe that would have happened regardless of the manager.
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We'd won three titles in 22 years, enduring two nine year spells without a single title. The idea that it was only a matter of time doesn't hold true.
 
Amity75 said:
I just remember coming home from school and seeing it on the news and standing there stunned with my old man going "It's amazing, isn't it?". Souness in the now iconic shot of him in full kit beside the "Welcome to Ibrox" sign. It just came completely out of nowhere and was the biggest event in my life since Star Wars came out.
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Star Wars FFS, away and pull her light Sabre lol
 
Let's remember that not only was he manager, but player manager. He was well past his best but still head and shoulders above every other midfielder in Scotland. It was a joy watching him play. It was bordering on the he stuff of fantasy seeing him on the pitch in a Rangers strip.
 
Marstonbear said:
Disagree. Souness was a serial winner. If he’s on the other end of the phone you’re listening
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I think a lot of fans put Souness to high on a pedastal at times, tbh.

Was he a factor? He must've had some influence. However, English clubs banned from Europe likely had a major impact as well as salary offered.

Had he turned us down and we went for Alex Ferguson, that would have been massive. Jim McLean would have been an interesting one, tbh and not quite sure how that'd have panned out.

Post ediited to credit Souness more with influence.
 
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Barryhopez said:
I think a lot of fans put Souness to high on a pedastal at times, tbh.

Was heca factor? Possibly. However, English clubs banned from Europe likely had a major impact as well as salary offered.

Had he turned us down and we went for Alex Ferguson, that would have been massive. Jim McLean would have been an interesting one, tbh and not quite sure how that'd have panned out.
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Was he a factor? Probably the stupidest question ever asked on the board.
I don't know how old you are, or were in 1986 but you're way way off the mark here.
Ferguson would/could never have attracted the players Souness did, not in a million years
 
Alex Venters said:
Was he a factor? Probably the stupidest question ever asked on the board.
I don't know how old you are, or were in 1986 but you're way way off the mark here.
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"Probably the stupidest question ever asked on this board" :D :D:D Really?

I've editted my post to be more gentle for you.
 
I'm sure Terry Butcher was quoted as saying, when approached about the move, he had no intention of signing, but within a day or two, he was a Ranger.
I wonder who attracted him?
 
The only good thing I can think of if Souness hadn’t have came would be no Murray , so no White and no demotion.
 
Amity75 said:
Let's remember that not only was he manager, but player manager. He was well past his best but still head and shoulders above every other midfielder in Scotland. It was a joy watching him play. It was bordering on the he stuff of fantasy seeing him on the pitch in a Rangers strip.
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Not true. He was easily Scotland’s best player at the 1986 World Cup. Still in his prime.

The decline in his playing came at Rangers, with the demands of being player/manager.

People remember Souness’ limited playing career at Rangers and forget his status when he arrived.
 
Bluefin221 said:
We'd won three titles in 22 years, enduring two nine year spells without a single title. The idea that it was only a matter of time doesn't hold true.
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It does when you factor in that our owners wanted out and to do that they had to invest in the club to make it a more enticing proposition.
David Holmes was then tasked with making the correct appointments to achieve that while being able to offer decent wages and the enticement of European football that wasn’t on offer down south at that point.
 
Alex Venters said:
Was he a factor? Probably the stupidest question ever asked on the board.
I don't know how old you are, or were in 1986 but you're way way off the mark here.
Ferguson would/could never have attracted the players Souness did, not in a million years
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Totally agree with this
Ferguson was a great manager no doubt and what he achieved with Aberdeen was incredible tbh

But pre Man Utd he didn't have the pull of Mr Graeme Souness.
 
senefelder said:
That timeline is how I recall it. I'm sure Wallace's sacking was announced mid/late afternoon on a Wednesday. Yours truly was playing a midweek match for my amateur side, and of course the sacking was the main topic, until someone turned up to say Souness was expected to take over.
Cue several ''no f#cking way man'' responses. I'm sure the appointment was the next day or day after.
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It was announced on Monday 7th April mate and he officially signed next day.

Reason I remember it so well is that I had spent all night in the maternity ward in the Southern General and my son was born on Monday afternoon at 4pm - Amazing day for me.

Of course being in the hospital for 18 hours meant that I didn't get to hear any news reports so you can imagine my reaction when the taxi driver on the way home told me the news.
 
Bluefin221 said:
I think we might have gone for Alex MacDonald.

We'd missed the boat on Alex Ferguson by 1986 and we wouldn't have went back in for Jim McLean. It's an interesting question. I guess only John Paton and David Holmes will know what Plan B would have been.
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Just can't think they'd have thought 'Damn, no Souness, don't fret.....we'll get Alex MacDonald before he ends up at Airdrie'. I think Rangers were hell bent on impact and with all due respect to the then future diamonds manager that wouldn't have been him.
 
Bluefin221 said:
We'd won three titles in 22 years, enduring two nine year spells without a single title. The idea that it was only a matter of time doesn't hold true.
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At the end of the 85/86 season you wouldn’t have found a single Rangers supporter who thought we would be champions the following season.we hadn’t been close to winning the league since the 78/79 season.none of us when souness was appointed had any idea we would be buying players like butcher and woods
 
Dalmuirbear said:
We, as a club where ready to rise again and if it wasn’t Souness it would have been someone else as driven to succeed. Who that would have been I haven’t a clue but David Holmes would have found them.

The time was right for us to reclaim our place and I firmly believe that would have happened regardless of the manager.
Click to expand...
It’s a big shout but you’ll not find many as positive about our situation back then.
 
For posterity, from time to time I still read the book, 'The Rebirth Of Rangers' about the 1986/87 season. Souness & Smith managing us to our first league win in 9 years. Butcher, Chris Woods etc signing. I couldn't believe the calibre of player we were attracting. Some of my best Rangers memories.

Only downside about the book - it was written by that eminent writer, journalist and broadcaster that is Chick Young!
 
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Alex Venters said:
Was he a factor? Probably the stupidest question ever asked on the board.
I don't know how old you are, or were in 1986 but you're way way off the mark here.
Ferguson would/could never have attracted the players Souness did, not in a million years
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This might be true but it’s as likely that he’d have emptied the sheep dressing room of who he wanted.
McLeish, Miller and Cooper, I think, would’ve been certs.
Maybe Kennedy and Eric Black too.
Black with McCoist has a salivating effect on me.
I’m thinking he’d have been looking at every home based Scottish international.
Would players like Levein, Durie, Narey, Sturrock and Bannen fancied it?
 
Marstonbear said:
The Souness appointment came out of nowhere.

The cash was already there. Basically Lawrence Marlborough owned a majority of the shares and was prepared to invest heavily to increase the value of the Club for a sale further down the line.

No other candidates were considered for the job but Ferguson was still at Aberdeen so maybe we would have gone back in for him after he’d turned us down in 1983 ditto Jim McLean
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Did Ferguson not leave the sheep in 1985 ?
 
tazzabear said:
It’s a big shout but you’ll not find many as positive about our situation back then.
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I started going to most games in the 82-83 season and the only season I really felt optimistic about our chances on winning the league was the 84/85 season on the back of a decent run and league cup win after jock had settled back in.we would lose to Aberdeen in November/December time and you had that sinking feeling that “were out of the title race”
 
Amity75 said:
I just remember coming home from school and seeing it on the news and standing there stunned with my old man going "It's amazing, isn't it?". Souness in the now iconic shot of him in full kit beside the "Welcome to Ibrox" sign. It just came completely out of nowhere and was the biggest event in my life since Star Wars came out.
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Absolutely, I was only 12 but all I had experienced was the what seemed like a perpetual 'New Firm' dominance of the Scottish game and with significant European success as well. But when Souness was captured in that picture, I was pretty sure things were going to change and the excitement captured all Rangers supporters imagination no matter their age.
 
tazzabear said:
It’s a big shout but you’ll not find many as positive about our situation back then.
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I agree but back then we didn’t have the full picture with regards the need of the Marlborough family to sell the club. Scottish football had never seen the level of spending that we then embarked on which for me would have happened with or without Souness as manager.
 
Marstonbear said:
The Souness appointment came out of nowhere.

The cash was already there. Basically Lawrence Marlborough owned a majority of the shares and was prepared to invest heavily to increase the value of the Club for a sale further down the line.

No other candidates were considered for the job but Ferguson was still at Aberdeen so maybe we would have gone back in for him after he’d turned us down in 1983 ditto Jim McLean
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Ferguson shat the bed when souness came in and got to f uck rapidly as he knew what was coming, the club was in the right position to go forward financially as we as a club rightly or wrongly decided building a new stadium was more important than buying any quality players for around 5 years or so. Which is why a couple of diddy clubs won some leagues, any business man with any sense at all would have seen the massive potential at the time for Rangers to be a top european side and only the cheating of those french bastards stopped us from getting to the first champions league final, not enough is made of Rangers being one of 8 stars on the champions league logo.
 
Bear84 said:
2 questions really, who would it have been and how different would the outcome have been?

Was there an alternative candidate ever discussed or rumoured or was it always going to be Souness?

If it hadn't been Souness then presumably the extra investment was still available and there would still have been an upturn in quality recruits? Or did Souness come in and drive the extra investment?

Maybe Murray's later involvement would have been less likely but primarily I'm wondering about how different things would have been in 1986.

Just a bit too young to have known all the detail at the time so interested to know what else may have transpired.
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With the great David Homes at the helm he would have got someone we would have been proud of, I’m sure after DH had spoken to GS he was begging Davud to get the start date brought forward.

Mr Homes deserves much much more credit than he actually gets.
 
tazzabear said:
This might be true but it’s as likely that he’d have emptied the sheep dressing room of who he wanted.
McLeish, Miller and Cooper, I think, would’ve been certs.
Maybe Kennedy and Eric Black too.
Black with McCoist has a salivating effect on me.
I’m thinking he’d have been looking at every home based Scottish international.
Would players like Levein, Durie, Narey, Sturrock and Bannen fancied it?
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Levein and Durie yes, Narey Sturrock and Bannon, not so much.
 
struth 1872 said:
Ferguson shat the bed when souness came in and got to f uck rapidly as he knew what was coming, the club was in the right position to go forward financially as we as a club rightly or wrongly decided building a new stadium was more important than buying any quality players for around 5 years or so. Which is why a couple of diddy clubs won some leagues, any business man with any sense at all would have seen the massive potential at the time for Rangers to be a top european side and only the cheating of those french bastards stopped us from getting to the first champions league final, not enough is made of Rangers being one of 8 stars on the champions league logo.
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We spent more than every Scottish club from when 80s started to Souness arriving.

Plenty came for big fees and big potential, largely the potential was unfulfilled eg Craig Paterson, Ian Redford, Iain Ferguson to name but 3
 
One of the debates this thread has thrown up is whether another manager (eg. Ferguson, Alex MacDonald) could have attracted the likes of Butcher, Woods and Wilkins. Some point out the draw of European football with the post-Heysel ban on English clubs.

So what happens if Souness doesn't come in, and let's say we appoint Alex MacDonald? Does Scotland still see an influx of English internationals keen to play in Europe, but without a figure of Souness' stature to draw them to Ibrox, they spread out more evenly between us, them, Aberdeen and maybe even Dundee Utd and Hearts? On one episode of H&H's Dominant they discussed how the tail-end of the 80s did see a general brief rise in the quality of players coming to Scotland outside of us, with the likes of Hans Gilhaus at Aberdeen who may otherwise have gone to England.

So is there any chance another Scottish club could have done what we did under Souness, or did the others just not have the money to compete in terms of wages etc? Absent Souness' at Ibrox, do Butcher, Woods etc just stay in England and forgo European competition? Or do we see more of an exodus from England to Serie A, Spain, Germany and France, following the likes of Souness', Wilkins, Hateley, Hoddle etc?
 
Rangers from 1981-85 were a bit of a tough watch
Not all the time but we were adrift
Without Souness and the major investment we’d have drifted on in the same way.
Good example of the level of player we had Hugh Burns and Cammy Fraser who were two reliable professionals and fitted the team if that time.
They must have known their days were numbered when Souness arrived.
 
1BrianLaudrup said:
One of the debates this thread has thrown up is whether another manager (eg. Ferguson, Alex MacDonald) could have attracted the likes of Butcher, Woods and Wilkins. Some point out the draw of European football with the post-Heysel ban on English clubs.

So what happens if Souness doesn't come in, and let's say we appoint Alex MacDonald? Does Scotland still see an influx of English internationals keen to play in Europe, but without a figure of Souness' stature to draw them to Ibrox, they spread out more evenly between us, them, Aberdeen and maybe even Dundee Utd and Hearts? On one episode of H&H's Dominant they discussed how the tail-end of the 80s did see a general brief rise in the quality of players coming to Scotland outside of us, with the likes of Hans Gilhaus at Aberdeen who may otherwise have gone to England.

So is there any chance another Scottish club could have done what we did under Souness, or did the others just not have the money to compete in terms of wages etc? Absent Souness' at Ibrox, do Butcher, Woods etc just stay in England and forgo European competition? Or do we see more of an exodus from England to Serie A, Spain, Germany and France, following the likes of Souness', Wilkins, Hateley, Hoddle etc?
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The influx of non-Scottish players to other clubs in Scotland came after Souness, and because of Souness.

Thats why it‘s called the Souness Revolution. He transformed Scottish football. Before Souness, foreigners, even English players in Scotland, were rare. From the late 89s, they became commonplace.
 
ibrox1975 said:
Rangers from 1981-85 were a bit of a tough watch
Not all the time but we were adrift
Without Souness and the major investment we’d have drifted on in the same way.
Good example of the level of player we had Hugh Burns and Cammy Fraser who were two reliable professionals and fitted the team if that time.
They must have known their days were numbered when Souness arrived.
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Fraser was a first pick under Souness and would have remained so (according to comments from GS at the time) had it not been for an injury which ended his Ibrox career
 
ibrox1975 said:
Rangers from 1981-85 were a bit of a tough watch
Not all the time but we were adrift
Without Souness and the major investment we’d have drifted on in the same way.
Good example of the level of player we had Hugh Burns and Cammy Fraser who were two reliable professionals and fitted the team if that time.
They must have known their days were numbered when Souness arrived.
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Souness liked Fraser.
Can’t remember what soured that relationship.
Then again, he liked Derek Ferguson as well.
Funny how he actually liked the two players for his position but neither “made it” with him.
Was he too demanding of them, expecting them to do as he did?
 
All these years later I can't imagine anyone else we could realistically have signed who would have matched the impact Graeme Souness made.

It was a seismic move which genuinely changed the history of Scottish football.

It came at the end of a season when I went to more Rangers games home and away than ever before and it was a season that was, statistically, the worst in Rangers history.

The Souness signing was one of the most exciting moments in my life (the most exciting as a football fan.)
 
Ferrybear73 said:
Did Ferguson not leave the sheep in 1985 ?
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No. He left just before the end of 1986. He signed for United just after Ron Atkinson was sacked.

He was still at Aberdeen when he coached Scotland in the 86 World Cup finals. In which by the way he had some sort of argument with the person giving title to this thread, Graeme Souness.
 
Coruña Loyal said:
No. He left just before the end of 1986. He signed for United just after Ron Atkinson was sacked.

He was still at Aberdeen when he coached Scotland in the 86 World Cup finals. In which by the way he had some sort of argument with the person giving title to this thread, Graeme Souness.
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Correct
He was i charge when we beat them 2-0 at Ibrox. Souness possibly getting the second. Press tried to bill as a grudge match as fergie had dropped Souness for the Uruguay game in Mexico
 
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