If the season is null and avoid, are goal records null and void too?

nybear

Well-Known Member
Don't think you can just pick and choose. If the season is ended null and void (which it should be soon enough) then all matches played should be null and void as well. You can't just void certain bits to suit.

If the league table is struck from record, the matches played in it to date should be as well.
aye ok mate, we should lose our record as the only team ever to get as far as we did in Europe because it never finished, games stand as they have been played league was just never finished there for no winner. tell me with hearts being bottom where would you place them for prize money if games were voided?
 

AndythephotoDr

Well-Known Member
aye ok mate, we should lose our record as the only team ever to get as far as we did in Europe because it never finished, games stand as they have been played league was just never finished there for no winner. tell me with hearts being bottom where would you place them for prize money if games were voided?
bud that’s exactly what voiding the competition would do like it or not. Nobody would be happy losing a record or missing out on winning the league but if you void something all those things have to happen.
 

GeordieRanger

Active Member
Official Ticketer
aye ok mate, we should lose our record as the only team ever to get as far as we did in Europe because it never finished, games stand as they have been played league was just never finished there for no winner. tell me with hearts being bottom where would you place them for prize money if games were voided?
There's a bigger picture than Rangers getting to the last 16 of the Europa League mate

Prize money should be shared out based on the current league positions.

If you want the European run to stand as final then I presume you want the same to apply to the Domestic campaign and you'll be sending over your congratulations to the bheasts on their title win?

Or are you simply picking and choosing to suit?

Look up the meaning of null and void then come back to me. This season isn't going to be completed. If everything is voided (which it should be) then everything is voided. Not just certain parts of it.
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
There's a bigger picture than Rangers getting to the last 16 of the Europa League mate

Prize money should be shared out based on the current league positions.

If you want the European run to stand as final then I presume you want the same to apply to the Domestic campaign and you'll be sending over your congratulations to the bheasts on their title win?

Or are you simply picking and choosing to suit?

Look up the meaning of null and void then come back to me. This season isn't going to be completed. If everything is voided (which it should be) then everything is voided. Not just certain parts of it.
Would you then say that Hagi never played for us?

Hagi saying "Ibrox baby" should be forgotten too?

Wiped, gone, never happened?
 

GeordieRanger

Active Member
Official Ticketer
Would you then say that Hagi never played for us?

Hagi saying "Ibrox baby" should be forgotten too?

Wiped, gone, never happened?
Yes that's the definition of null and void. You can't just pick and choose what you want to count and what you don't to suit.

The 19/20 season will be wiped from the record books.

Null and Void = not (legally) valid.

The alternative is to end the season as it is. Allow all team and players records to stand and count League positions as final. Celtic Champions, Hearts relegated, Dundee Utd up etc.

You can't just half void it!
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
Yes that's the definition of null and void. You can't just pick and choose what you want to count and what you don't to suit.

The 19/20 season will be wiped from the record books.

Null and Void = not (legally) valid.

The alternative is to end the season as it is. Allow all team and players records to stand and count League positions as final. Celtic Champions, Hearts relegated, Dundee Utd up etc.

You can't just half void it!
So if Suarez did his 'biting' 6 weeks ago, and he was banned from football for 2 years, should that be null and void too?
 

GeordieRanger

Active Member
Official Ticketer
So if Suarez did his 'biting' 6 weeks ago, and he was banned from football for 2 years, should that be null and void too?
Obviously that's a grey area. Technically he's caused ABH so that's a criminal offence. If you start only voiding certain parts of the season and allowing player records to stand you're duty bound to allow team records to stand. If you allow team records to stand then that is final and league positions are classed as final with relevant titles, promotions and relegations awarded.

It's a legal minefield which is why the 2019/20 season will ultimately be declared null and void and expunged from the record books. It's the fairest and most sensible option. You simply just can not allow certain things to stand and others not to.
 

AndythephotoDr

Well-Known Member
So if Suarez did his 'biting' 6 weeks ago, and he was banned from football for 2 years, should that be null and void too?
i think most folks get your point mate. i. Sure Suarez would still get his ban even if the result of the game was voided. These games have been played but the outcome of the matches will have been voided, the stuff has happened but everything but the outcome of the matches will be declared meaningless.

As I said in another reply to you I don’t think anyone would be happy missing out on the benefits of these games goals, points, etc. They may write it up in the records somewhere what happened in these matches.
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
Obviously that's a grey area. Technically he's caused ABH so that's a criminal offence. If you start only voiding certain parts of the season and allowing player records to stand you're duty bound to allow team records to stand. If you allow team records to stand then that is final and league positions are classed as final with relevant titles, promotions and relegations awarded.

It's a legal minefield which is why the 2019/20 season will ultimately be declared null and void and expunged from the record books. It's the fairest and most sensible option. You simply just can not allow certain things to stand and others not to.
One last analogy for you, in the snooker premier league, if Ronnie O'Sullivan got a new fastest 147 in 3m 12s and got £100k for it, but the competition was then cancelled due to Coronavirus, you wouldnt argue he never got that record would you? Would you insist he gave the money back?

The feat was still accomplished.

Certainly the winner of the tournament couldn't be announced or awarded as it wasnt completed, but surely anything that happened up to that point can be recognised, just not the winner.
 

GeordieRanger

Active Member
Official Ticketer
One last analogy for you, in the snooker premier league, if Ronnie O'Sullivan got a new fastest 147 in 3m 12s and got £100k for it, but the competition was then cancelled due to Coronavirus, you wouldnt argue he never got that record would you? Would you insist he gave the money back?

The feat was still accomplished.

Certainly the winner of the tournament couldn't be announced or awarded as it wasnt completed, but surely anything that happened up to that point can be recognised, just not the winner.
That is correct his record would not stand. Same as if he'd done it in practice sessions (which he undoubtedly has) it wouldn't count officially.

It's pretty black and white in football. The season is null and void or it isn't. If it is then the 2019/20 season is expunged from history and if it isn't league placings and player records are taken as final and the relevant prizes, promotions and relegations are handed out.
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
That is correct his record would not stand. Same as if he'd done it in practice sessions (which he undoubtedly has) it wouldn't count officially.

It's pretty black and white in football. The season is null and void or it isn't. If it is then the 2019/20 season is expunged from history and if it isn't league placings and player records are taken as final and the relevant prizes, promotions and relegations are handed out.
So you are in favour of clubs returning TV money?

After all, according to you, it never happened, it is unearned and is void.
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
That is correct his record would not stand. Same as if he'd done it in practice sessions (which he undoubtedly has) it wouldn't count officially.

It's pretty black and white in football. The season is null and void or it isn't. If it is then the 2019/20 season is expunged from history and if it isn't league placings and player records are taken as final and the relevant prizes, promotions and relegations are handed out.
You say its "black and white" but you acknowledged a 'grey' area earlier.


Are you saying that feat never happened?


Here is my whole thought process: "Morelos scored 14 European goals before Christmas, but the league was not drawn to a conclusion so no winner could be announced"
 

GeordieRanger

Active Member
Official Ticketer
So you are in favour of clubs returning TV money?

After all, according to you, it never happened, it is unearned and is void.
Again that's different as Sky and TV have benefited from showing the live sport through advertising revenue from viewing figures unless you are saying they should also be returning money to the relevant advertisers. You're mixing up off field and on field issues here. You could then argue that clubs would then need to return all season ticket monies as the matches didn't count but fans have still been entertained (well sometimes!).

If there is no way of completing the season it should be null and voided. If you null and void something you have to do it in it's enterity, not just selected bits.
 

GeordieRanger

Active Member
Official Ticketer
You say its "black and white" but you acknowledged a 'grey' area earlier.


Are you saying that feat never happened?


Here is my whole thought process: "Morelos scored 14 European goals before Christmas, but the league was not drawn to a conclusion so no winner could be announced"
Yes! You either null and void the season or you don't. It's as straight forward as that ffs. I couldn't carr who scored what, who reached what round of what competition.

It's voided or it isn't. If it is, everything is expunged. If it isn't, start awarding the relevant prizes based on current League positions. It can't be much more straightforward than that!
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
Again that's different as Sky and TV have benefited from showing the live sport through advertising revenue from viewing figures unless you are saying they should also be returning money to the relevant advertisers. You're mixing up off field and on field issues here. You could then argue that clubs would then need to return all season ticket monies as the matches didn't count but fans have still been entertained (well sometimes!).

If there is no way of completing the season it should be null and voided. If you null and void something you have to do it in it's enterity, not just selected bits.
The 'null and void' part pertains to the outcome of the positions as they were not drawn to a conclusion.

The only way the league postions can be finished is if the season finishes.

Any alternative is 'void' (not legally binding).

If the SFA said 'let's work out a system to calculate final positions' ... then that would not be legally binding (void)

If the SFA said 'let's have each team play each other once in a knockout over the summer to get a winner'... that would be void.

The only conclusion is to finish the season, if it cannot be completed then no final positions can be given, but records up to that point can stand.

"Null and void" is purely the discussion of final league postions.
 

AndythephotoDr

Well-Known Member
You say its "black and white" but you acknowledged a 'grey' area earlier.


Are you saying that feat never happened?


Here is my whole thought process: "Morelos scored 14 European goals before Christmas, but the league was not drawn to a conclusion so no winner could be announced"
I suppose the fans can un-eat the pies they had at halftime so theenervating didn’t happen.

its going to be a real clusterfeck trying to sort out what happens. we are voiding the results as the games played have no meaning as no prizes will have been handed out but as the players have participated in the games with no meaning they still need paid and I suppose the prize money for reaching certain round still have to be paid out. Some cups in some leaves will have already been won despite the leagues not finishing. TV companies will still have had the benefit of viewing figures for these matches so advertisers will be happy enough.

I suppose if they say the goals from the games played still count as the players did score them but the points from the matches are now meaningless as they don’t go towards the outcome of anything
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
Yes! You either null and void the season or you don't. It's as straight forward as that ffs. I couldn't carr who scored what, who reached what round of what competition.

It's voided or it isn't. If it is, everything is expunged. If it isn't, start awarding the relevant prizes based on current League positions. It can't be much more straightforward than that!
You are actually just making things up now.

Where on earth are you getting this 'expunged' rhetoric from?

Where have you read this?

If its just what you think should happen then fine I will accept your point of view, but you are now stating that as fact.

The SPFL rules explain how the end if the season is concluded, and if it cannot be concluded the way they say then no final positions can be given.

No where in the rules does it say "and all records are expunged".

You are making this up!
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
I suppose the fans can un-eat the pies they had at halftime so theenervating didn’t happen.

its going to be a real clusterfeck trying to sort out what happens. we are voiding the results as the games played have no meaning as no prizes will have been handed out but as the players have participated in the games with no meaning they still need paid and I suppose the prize money for reaching certain round still have to be paid out. Some cups in some leaves will have already been won despite the leagues not finishing. TV companies will still have had the benefit of viewing figures for these matches so advertisers will be happy enough.

I suppose if they say the goals from the games played still count as the players did score them but the points from the matches are now meaningless as they don’t go towards the outcome of anything
We are not voiding the results!

We are voiding the outcome of the league as it cannot be drawn to a conclusion!

Any alternative to end the league is void (not legally binding) and so no final positions can be confirmed.

We are not voiding results!
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
That is correct his record would not stand. Same as if he'd done it in practice sessions (which he undoubtedly has) it wouldn't count officially.

It's pretty black and white in football. The season is null and void or it isn't. If it is then the 2019/20 season is expunged from history and if it isn't league placings and player records are taken as final and the relevant prizes, promotions and relegations are handed out.
THAT would be void. (Not legally binding)
 

GeordieRanger

Active Member
Official Ticketer
You are actually just making things up now.

Where on earth are you getting this 'expunged' rhetoric from?

Where have you read this?

If its just what you think should happen then fine I will accept your point of view, but you are now stating that as fact.

The SPFL rules explain how the end if the season is concluded, and if it cannot be concluded the way they say then no final positions can be given.

No where in the rules does it say "and all records are expunged".

You are making this up!
We are going around in circles here. Before we can go any further I suggest you look up the meaning of Null and void then we can maybeake some progress here.
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
We are going around in circles here. Before we can go any further I suggest you look up the meaning of Null and void then we can maybeake some progress here.
Yes, it means not legally binding.


So, in SPFL rules

SPFL rules C15 The Clubs in positions 1 to 6 of the Premiership immediately after the 33rd League Match in any Season shall occupy the first six places in the League at the end of that Season and the Clubs in positions 7 to 12 of the Premiership immediately after the 33rd League Match in the same Season shall occupy the bottom six places in the League at the end of that Season. In the first 33 League Matches for each Club in each Season each of the Clubs in the Premiership shall play against each of the other 11 Clubs in the Premiership on 3 occasions and on at least one of such 3 occasions each Club shall be the Home Club. In the event that any other provision of these Rules is inconsistent with this Rule C15, or if any ambiguities are created thereby, this Rule shall take precedence.


C16 The Clubs in positions 1 to 6 of the Premiership immediately after the 33rd League Match in any Season shall play in that Season in a further five League Matches in that Season, once against each of the other five Clubs in such positions 1 to 6, and in at least two of such five League Matches each Club shall be the Home Club and the Clubs in positions 7 to 12 of the Premiership immediately after the 33rd League Match in any Season shall play in that Season in a further five League Matches in that Season, once against each of the other five Clubs in such positions 7 to 12, and in at least two of such five League Matches each Club shall be the Home Club.



This is how FINAL LEAGUE POSTIONS are drawn to a conclusion.

Any departure from that would be null and void.

FINAL LEAGUE POSTIONS.

No where does it say "and after 38 games all final league positions, goal records and points are confirmed"

If it did, then yes the goal records would also be null and void.

But it doesn't.

The only "null and void" part would be the handing out of league positions unless the season is drawn to a conclusion.

FINAL LEAGUE POSTIONS
 

GeordieRanger

Active Member
Official Ticketer
Yes, it means not legally binding.


So, in SPFL rules

SPFL rules C15 The Clubs in positions 1 to 6 of the Premiership immediately after the 33rd League Match in any Season shall occupy the first six places in the League at the end of that Season and the Clubs in positions 7 to 12 of the Premiership immediately after the 33rd League Match in the same Season shall occupy the bottom six places in the League at the end of that Season. In the first 33 League Matches for each Club in each Season each of the Clubs in the Premiership shall play against each of the other 11 Clubs in the Premiership on 3 occasions and on at least one of such 3 occasions each Club shall be the Home Club. In the event that any other provision of these Rules is inconsistent with this Rule C15, or if any ambiguities are created thereby, this Rule shall take precedence.


C16 The Clubs in positions 1 to 6 of the Premiership immediately after the 33rd League Match in any Season shall play in that Season in a further five League Matches in that Season, once against each of the other five Clubs in such positions 1 to 6, and in at least two of such five League Matches each Club shall be the Home Club and the Clubs in positions 7 to 12 of the Premiership immediately after the 33rd League Match in any Season shall play in that Season in a further five League Matches in that Season, once against each of the other five Clubs in such positions 7 to 12, and in at least two of such five League Matches each Club shall be the Home Club.



This is how FINAL LEAGUE POSTIONS are drawn to a conclusion.

Any departure from that would be null and void.

FINAL LEAGUE POSTIONS.

No where does it say "and after 38 games all final league positions, goal records and points are confirmed"

If it did, then yes the goal records would also be null and void.

But it doesn't.

The only "null and void" part would be the handing out of league positions unless the season is drawn to a conclusion.

FINAL LEAGUE POSTIONS
The problem you have here is that you are looking at this purely from a (Rangers) supporters perspective. You want all the good bits, the Europa League campaign and individual players records who have done well to stand but won't accept the bad bits, namely the bheasts winning the league.

Once you look at it through a legal, and impartial perspective you will come to understand that Null and void means just that. The 19/20 season is voided and expunged from the record books.

No harm in remembering your own personal highlights from this season but officially they won't count for anything.
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
The problem you have here is that you are looking at this purely from a (Rangers) supporters perspective. You want all the good bits, the Europa League campaign and individual players records who have done well to stand but won't accept the bad bits, namely the bheasts winning the league.

Once you look at it through a legal, and impartial perspective you will come to understand that Null and void means just that. The 19/20 season is voided and expunged from the record books.

No harm in remembering your own personal highlights from this season but officially they won't count for anything.
Lol

I am not looking at this from a Rangers perspective, I am only looking at the rules and pointing out that goals records, from both Rangers, C****c and Aberdeen should count.

Our defeats should count. Our red cards should count. Our goals conceded should count. Everything counts, apart from the final league postions.
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
The problem you have here is that you are looking at this purely from a (Rangers) supporters perspective. You want all the good bits, the Europa League campaign and individual players records who have done well to stand but won't accept the bad bits, namely the bheasts winning the league.

Once you look at it through a legal, and impartial perspective you will come to understand that Null and void means just that. The 19/20 season is voided and expunged from the record books.

No harm in remembering your own personal highlights from this season but officially they won't count for anything.
In fairness, I have not looked at the Europa League rules, perhaps it does say in there that "should the competition not be able to be drawn to a conclusion then any goal records will be expunged"

Perhaps your right on that.

I am only looking at the FINAL LEAGUE POSTIONS rules for the SPFL which makes no reference to anything else apart from the FINAL LEAGUE POSTIONS.
 

nybear

Well-Known Member
That is correct his record would not stand. Same as if he'd done it in practice sessions (which he undoubtedly has) it wouldn't count officially.

It's pretty black and white in football. The season is null and void or it isn't. If it is then the 2019/20 season is expunged from history and if it isn't league placings and player records are taken as final and the relevant prizes, promotions and relegations are handed out.
So all season ticket holders get their money back as games were never played. Airlines and hotels return money as away support never went. Tv companies return subscription fees and clubs return tv money as it never happened.
 

GeordieRanger

Active Member
Official Ticketer
So all season ticket holders get their money back as games were never played. Airlines and hotels return money as away support never went. Tv companies return subscription fees and clubs return tv money as it never happened.
They were played. The club incurred costs for hosting the fixtures. They would just be null and voided though which means that they won't exist on any official records if the 19/20 season is abandoned as expected. If a match is abandoned at half time with the score at 1-1 the goalscorers don't get credited with the goals. They are simply scratched off the record.
 

Smkz23

Well-Known Member
I still don't see the season being nul and void. It looks like Italy are close to announcing Juventus champions. If they do that in one of the closest leagues in Europe, all other FA's will follow suit. Particularly EPL and SPFL who are desperate to award Liverpool and the scum.
there no suggestion of Juve being awarded the title,
You are actually just making things up now.

Where on earth are you getting this 'expunged' rhetoric from?

Where have you read this?

If its just what you think should happen then fine I will accept your point of view, but you are now stating that as fact.

The SPFL rules explain how the end if the season is concluded, and if it cannot be concluded the way they say then no final positions can be given.

No where in the rules does it say "and all records are expunged".

You are making this up!
The expunging talk has come up after the decision in England to do that to lower national leagues and lower women’s football.
 

RandyMac

Well-Known Member
The goals were scored in competition, it happened, they should stand
A competition that is hypothetically being declared null and void. Meaning the competition is wiped from the records. To expect the records to show goals scored, bookings/red cards given etc but the competition itself to be erased from the history books is absolutely bonkers in all honesty. It’s a timothy argument if ever I’ve heard one.
 

Mamabear

Well-Known Member
A competition that is hypothetically being declared null and void. Meaning the competition is wiped from the records. To expect the records to show goals scored, bookings/red cards given etc but the competition itself to be erased from the history books is absolutely bonkers in all honesty. It’s a timothy argument if ever I’ve heard one.
Are you trying to imply something with your last sentence pal?
Nothing is being erased from history books, if it happened, it’s history,

I’ve seen quite a few tims denying history right enough
 

MrBearightside

Well-Known Member
A competition that is hypothetically being declared null and void. Meaning the competition is wiped from the records. To expect the records to show goals scored, bookings/red cards given etc but the competition itself to be erased from the history books is absolutely bonkers in all honesty. It’s a timothy argument if ever I’ve heard one.
Why would anyone here be wanting to make a Timothy argument?

Juventus had their titles taken from them, but the players goals still stayed with their stats!

What we are talking about is deciding a title, and we all agree that a title cannot be decided, the title is null and void, but the games happened, the goals will count.
 

nybear

Well-Known Member
They were played. The club incurred costs for hosting the fixtures. They would just be null and voided though which means that they won't exist on any official records if the 19/20 season is abandoned as expected. If a match is abandoned at half time with the score at 1-1 the goalscorers don't get credited with the goals. They are simply scratched off the record.
in the world of the scum the one goal they got is on record but the eight against didna happen are you also saying the 8.1 game didnt happen ? you also said place standing as they are should reflect prize money yet if no one scored we would all be one the same number of points wouldnt we ?

If a match is abandoned, any bets where the outcome has already been decided e.g. half-time result or first team to score, will stand. All other bets will be made void regardless of the scoreline at the time of abandonment.
 

RandyMac

Well-Known Member
Why would anyone here be wanting to make a Timothy argument?

Juventus had their titles taken from them, but the players goals still stayed with their stats!

What we are talking about is deciding a title, and we all agree that a title cannot be decided, the title is null and void, but the games happened, the goals will count.
If you’re so sure about them still counting why start the thread asking? Strange.
 
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