If Warburton stayed ..

This the same McKay who had about 5 good games by the top flight, bucking under the pressure before looking to the exit door.
 
albop said:
8-9 millon in the lower english leagues does not buy you alot

remember thats where mw and the best in the business was shopping
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Brendan Rodgers has spent £10m-£12m shopping almost exclusively in England. In return he's got Sinclair & Dembele, aswell as others who you fancy can be sold for at least what they've paid for them.
 
Warburton was in part a victim of impossible expectations- though he set some of those himself. Rangers were never able to compete with Celtic but at least he had us competing with everyone else and ending ahead. Since then we have had some of the most disastrous results in our history. There is no contest when it comes to Caixinha versus Warburton. Hindsight is 20:20 of course.
 
davmcc said:
Have to say I think Warburton would have invested the £8m spent in the summer a lot better than Caixinha did.

Hypothetical question but if Lescott had passed his medical and signed instead of Senderos, Barton had screwed the nut and Rossitor hadn't spent the full season injured would things have panned out a lot better last year for Warburton?

In a way he was sort of unlucky Warburton but his major downfall was his stubbornness.
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How much of that cash would have been in brown envelopes to him and the BIB ?
 
We were going backwards under Warburton and he was actively trying to get away.

So worse.
 
Caixinha looked like he cared

Warburton was trying to work his ticket and was rumbled going behind the clubs back.

2 disasterous appointments at a time we couldnt afford them.

Blame falls squarely at the Boards feet.

No director with any footballing background is incredible.
 
We certainly wouldn't have won as many of the away games we have.

He was pretty useless away from home, and that includes the Championship were our wage bill dwarfed the others.
 
If MW had 8 mil to spend you can gaurentee the majority would've went on player his daughters company represented.

Also Dave King stated that MW did not spend all his budget but you can that with a pinch of salt.
 
skeewee said:
If MW had 8 mil to spend you can gaurentee the majority would've went on player his daughters company represented.

Also Dave King stated that MW did not spend all his budget but you can that with a pinch of salt.
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Of the 25 plus players MW signed for Rangers, I believe only a handful of them (maybe around 5) came from this agency. It's another urban myth that every player he signed was from the one agency.

It's also perfectly normal for managers to have preferred agents etc. We used Pedro Mendes this season quite a lot.
 
Warburton wasn’t given the same financial backing that an unknown manager from Qatar was, for some reason. People will mock Warburtons signings, most of which were very poor. But were they his first choice signings? Were they even his second? I’m not so sure.
 
His record at Forest is something like 8 wins and 9 defeats. No draws, no middle ground, it’s either been win, or lose.

That to me looks like it’s still Plan A or bust with him, no attempt to do things differently, grind out results where it matters, play the percentages sometimes, just keep doing Plan A better.

So in answer to the OP, no, we wouldn’t be any better off.
 
ICA_86 said:
If he continues to neglect the defensive coaching, we’d be much worse.

It’s a shame it didn’t work out still. There was that six month period after he came in, after all the shite we’d been through, where we played some absolutely wonderful football.

I know the opposition wasn’t great, but he’d thrown together a team and some of the football was so entertaining after everything we’d been subject to.
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The longer he's away the better that 1st 6 months seem to become.

He was sussed by the end of the 1st round of games more or less.
 
Vidmar said:
I think history is being rewritten slightly when it comes to MW. He didn't take us as far as we wanted but he wasn't a failure, either.

In the end, he wanted out and was never well-liked behind the scenes, but ditching him for Pedro was a waste of time. Last season unraveled as soon as MW left, and Progres, losing to the Sheep, 5-1 at Ibrox was much worse than anything endured under MW (on a much smaller budget).

MW is now doing OK with a good club in a vastly superior league, whilst we scrabble around for a manager toiling in fourth.

I'm not sure who's having the last laugh right now.
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The 4-1 at Hearts was worse than any of the results above except Progres. We even made Jamie Walker look good that night.

Progres was a disaster I grant you but it's interesting that the only result you mention from this season as being poor was the second match of the season. There was definite progress this season under Pedro.

At least we can now defend corners and high balls into the box.
 
He couldn't have done any worse than Pedro. Given the backing Pedro got I think MW would have done better.

He wanted out from the Scottish Cup final onwards though, IMO.
 
omegaman said:
His record at Forest is something like 8 wins and 9 defeats. No draws, no middle ground, it’s either been win, or lose.

That to me looks like it’s still Plan A or bust with him, no attempt to do things differently, grind out results where it matters, play the percentages sometimes, just keep doing Plan A better.

So in answer to the OP, no, we wouldn’t be any better off.
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Or you could flip that around and say they were 20th when he took over and now they are sitting in 7th, 2 points from the playoffs when his net spend in the summer was (-10m).

The guy is not without his flaws but he is a good manager.
 
Hes doing not too bad with Forest this year, 7th when they were potentially tipped to be near the bottom, but just can't see how it would have worked up here, burned too many bridges
 
It would be exactly the same except our home and away records would be the other way around
 
We were not good enough then overall, we were not good under Pedro and we are not good now.

That's how we have went and we are living off the penalties against them.

As a team collectively and how we played the game has not worked overall. So unless MW changed his managerial ways then we would not have progressed for me.....i.e no closer to the top than we are now. We would perhaps still be in Europe though as there was no transition to go through

A team of weak players - cowards you could say. Which for some reason hasn't changed.

HOWEVER.......he fucked off and wanted out........so in that respect not someone I'd want - hypothetically.
 
StaunchAndTrue said:
It’s worth noting when he left us we were second, We now sit 4th

When he took over forest they were 20th (I think) they now sit 7th.
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They may well be 7th but they're closer to the bottom than they are the top

They also have a -1 goal difference, you've got to go to 5th bottom to find a team that has lost more goals.
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
Or you could flip that around and say they were 20th when he took over and now they are sitting in 7th, 2 points from the playoffs when his net spend in the summer was (-10m).

The guy is not without his flaws but he is a good manager.
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You say good, I say average.

The English Championship is his level.

I’ll be amazed if he steers Forest up.
 
tazzabear said:
As bad as Pedro has been, we're still in a better position than last season.
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We're not though, are we?

We're 4th. Spent a hell of a lot of cash on duds (more than MW) we'll be paying off Pedro and his coaching staff, we're out of Europe and some of the worst defeats of our history have come under PC.

It really is a grim time for us
 
WalterLoyal said:
If Warburton had stayed and was given 8-9m we would be considerably stronger. Warburton was far from perfect but he is a much better manager than Pedro.
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It's this simple, really. Still, I think you could give Warburton and Caixinha 20 million each and they would still fail to wrestle a title off Rodgers
 
Not going forward. Not going backwards. Just treading water. As for pre Season buys i wouldn't trust him with my last fiver.
 
omegaman said:
You say good, I say average.

The English Championship is his level.

I’ll be amazed if he steers Forest up.
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I'd be amazed too but it's not a stick to beat him with is it? They have been a basket case of a club for years and he has improved them massively in a short space of time already.

Most people on here had him getting Forest relegated, the same people who had Barrie McKay being back up in Scotland playing for a Kilmarnock in 18 months. They're already been made to look silly with nonsense like that.

The English Championship might be his level but I wouldn't mind that being our level just now. Alex f*cking McLeish is the favourite to be our new manager for heavens sake :D
 
Portadown_Bear said:
The 4-1 at Hearts was worse than any of the results above except Progres. We even made Jamie Walker look good that night.

Progres was a disaster I grant you but it's interesting that the only result you mention from this season as being poor was the second match of the season. There was definite progress this season under Pedro.

At least we can now defend corners and high balls into the box.
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I don’t buy this Pedro progress line that keeps getting trotted out.

I’m not going to start defending Warburton, but Caixinha was given 2 or 3 times his spend yet had us exactly where Warburton left us.

Sure we looked like we could defend corners better, but we were still suspect at the back, still blew umpteen sitters up front, and still got bullied out of games all too easily.

Better on the road perhaps, but just as bad at home.

There was no progress that I could see and certainly not the sort £8m should have delivered.
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
We'd be 10x better off than we are now. Anybody suggesting otherwise is simply deluded.
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Lolz....time for your medication, mw was/is a charlatan who talked a good game until you realised that what he was saying was the same shit different day.
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
I'd be amazed too but it's not a stick to beat him with is it? They have been a basket case of a club for years and he has improved them massively in a short space of time already.

Most people on here had him getting Forest relegated, the same people who had Barrie McKay being back up in Scotland playing for a Kilmarnock in 18 months. They're already been made to look silly with nonsense like that.

The English Championship might be his level but I wouldn't mind that being our level just now. Alex f*cking McLeish is the favourite to be our new manager for heavens sake :D
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It would be daft to suggest he's not a good manager because he is.

He simply couldn't grasp or handle the size or expectation at Ibrox. I thought he did but it became clear that with each passing statement it simply overwhelmed him culminating in his "We left them second(you didn't) and had a nice day out at the cup final"
 
Pains me to say it however Warburton is a better manager than Pedro the latter should have been fired after the Progres debacle, it gradually got worse after that.
And we still can't defend.
 
JMTrangers said:
For me, the best XI since Warburton took over up to now is:

Wes

Tav
Alves
Cardoso
Wallace

Jack
Dorrans
Pena/Windass (lack of real quality third midfielder)

Waghorn
Morelos
McKay

The reality is we SHOULD be better, but a combination of risky signings (imagine we'd spent the £4m we spent on the Mexicans in Europe) and letting players go who could've done a job has cost us up to this point.

I still think the team above, if we hadn't let Waghorn and McKay go, would be better placed than we are right now.
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You would chose Waghorn and McKay over Candeias? Pahahhahahahaa
 
derbybear said:
Usual tripe. Who knows where we would be. However just for the sakes of being opposite, PC's team would wipe the floor with Warburtons.
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We have scored more goals but are roughly where we were in points. I think that if they played each other Warburton's team would have 70% of the ball and create 4 chances, Pedro's would have the 30% but create more by punting the ball up the park. It would be a 1 sided match in terms of possession, with the result depending on whoever got lucky in front of goal. Does that make it £8 million well spent? clearly not.

What Warburton did with Brentford and what he is now doing with Forest shows that he is a good manager at that level. With additional funds and a little time to grow into the SPL would he have got us competing? We will never know obviously, but the fact will always remain that he wanted to leave.
 
Never understand why some so-called good Managers have a blind spot when it comes to defence.

You don’t win things if you can’t defend.

Build your team on a solid defence and you’re half way there.

Warburton never understood that - that was his downfall.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
We have scored more goals but are roughly where we were in points. I think that if they played each other Warburton's team would have 70% of the ball and create 4 chances, Pedro's would have the 30% but create more by punting the ball up the park. It would be a 1 sided match in terms of possession, with the result depending on whoever got lucky in front of goal. Does that make it £8 million well spent? clearly not.

What Warburton did with Brentford and what he is now doing with Forest shows that he is a good manager at that level. With additional funds and a little time to grow into the SPL would he have got us competing? We will never know obviously, but the fact will always remain that he wanted to leave.
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Warburton never had the injuries and refereeing decision to contend with on such a ridiculous level.

btw my Derby supporting mates love Warburton!
 
SDF said:
It would be daft to suggest he's not a good manager because he is.

He simply couldn't grasp or handle the size or expectation at Ibrox. I thought he did but it became clear that with each passing statement it simply overwhelmed him culminating in his "We left them second(you didn't) and had a nice day out at the cup final"
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Warburton is not a good manager no matter what anyone says.

We've wasted the last two & a half seasons on two guys that weren't fit for purpose.

If we'd got a proper manager/coach in back then we would be far better off now.
 
omegaman said:
I don’t buy this Pedro progress line that keeps getting trotted out.

I’m not going to start defending Warburton, but Caixinha was given 2 or 3 times his spend yet had us exactly where Warburton left us.

Sure we looked like we could defend corners better, but we were still suspect at the back, still blew umpteen sitters up front, and still got bullied out of games all too easily.

Better on the road perhaps, but just as bad at home.

There was no progress that I could see and certainly not the sort £8m should have delivered.
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What is telling is after the Warburton sacking King said there was more funds available to Warburton but Warburton said he didn't need it. Warburton was never going to make us any better.

Under Pedro we defended better, created more chances and dominated the game better. We didn't have games domestically this season like Hearts, Celtic or Aberdeen last year where we were never in with a chance of winning the game and were completely dominated. To me that's progress because we are better than we were the season before.

We all know we are not where we need to be. IMHO we need another two good transfer windows to achieve that. We have signed the numbers in the last window and have the nucleus of a good squad (if only Kenny and Murty would play them but that's another thread). What we need to do now is concentrate on 3-4 top quality players - a LM, CM, CB and striker.
 
I think we would be, but he wanted out. He was probably driven away by the expectation and criticism (some of which was deserved, some was harsh but even Walter had his critics).

Can't say I wish the guy any ill will, he just wasn't cut out for the job in the end. Couldn't handle it. Big disappointment for me, I really liked what he was trying to do and would have been willing to give him longer.
 
I think the squad is better now than when he left. And the improvements were largely in the areas that he just seemed to have no ability to identify or recruit in - strong capable defenders and reliable finishers (Hamilton game notwithstanding). I'd argue that even Herrera is more clinical than any striker Warburton signed.

I think our weakness when Warburton started exacerbated his evident blind spots. In other teams, there'd be some players already there who occupied such roles. I do wonder what we'd be like if Warburton took over a Smith side. Smith's would have tough as nails defenders and clinical finishers but often a lack of flair. It would be a very good compliment. Obviously very different scale but there are similarities to Wenger and Arsenal. Wenger obviously likes wee technical players but the (real) Invincibles were built on him adding that to a fairly solid defensive foundation that preceded his arrival. (Before anyone says it, I know Wenger signed Viera and Henry but the point kinda stands).
 
Portadown_Bear said:
What is telling is after the Warburton sacking King said there was more funds available to Warburton but Warburton said he didn't need it. Warburton was never going to make us any better.

Under Pedro we defended better, created more chances and dominated the game better. We didn't have games domestically this season like Hearts, Celtic or Aberdeen last year where we were never in with a chance of winning the game and were completely dominated. To me that's progress because we are better than we were the season before.

We all know we are not where we need to be. IMHO we need another two good transfer windows to achieve that. We have signed the numbers in the last window and have the nucleus of a good squad (if only Kenny and Murty would play them but that's another thread). What we need to do now is concentrate on 3-4 top quality players - a LM, CM, CB and striker.
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Dominated games better under pedro? Ur having a f***ing laugh arent you?
 
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