In a world where King started with us from the bottom and we had a better coach/football set up.

That's fair enough. Our recruitment policy that summer was an absolute panic move, the major problem with what you're proposing though is that at the time of us putting our fourth tier team together, the three players that you mentioned had about 5 senior appearances between them. The first one to show any promise was Robertson and we were already promoted by the team he'd been picked up by Dundee united. Granted there would have been good young players that we could have taken a chance on at the time, but again as I said, do you really think that if we'd not been promoted first season down there our fans would have had the patience to see who came good and who didn't? I don't think they would. There were certainly better ways to go about things but the last minute license being granted didn't exactly leave much time for any sense of proper scouting/negotiations. We brought in the players we did because they were proven at spl level and were deemed good enough to get us at least back up a couple of divisions. Nothing more nothing less.

During the initial phase, the lower leagues, Rangers would have pissed that league even taking away several of the additions we made, it was wreck less and daft spend rather than a must to make our way up leagues.
 
Even allowing for how badly we were ran from 2012 to 2015, the one thing I took from the lower league years was how much of a physical/technical gap there was with the top flight. I would never have considered that before. People talk about the Motherwell game but that was pure adrenaline. A month later, ICT came to Ibrox and gave us a 3-0 drubbing and we were chasing shadows. Warburton bridged the gap in 2015/16 to some extent although even he had a horror show against St Johnstone.

I guess my point is that even if we had recruited the best of the rest - McLean, Robertson, Shankland, etc. - I think it would have been very difficult to get them coached to a high level while playing part-time teams every week. You saw how the likes of Wallace regressed and he wasn't a bad professional. It's just very difficult to maintain high standards when you're not being tested.
This is a vastly overlooked point, players tend to improve on the basis of who they're playing against week in week out. You can see it in action with every player thats used clubs as a stepping stone. Morelos for example while at Helsinki was a great player for that level, if you were to pitch him at that time into a game against an epl team he'd likely be miles out of his depth. We can see the improvement in him ourselves over the last couple of years. Playing against plumbers and postmen whose main aim is to kick you off the park will do hee haw for a young players devopment. There's every chance that a shankland or mcginn would look every inch the championship player after spending 3 seasons playing against utter dross.
 
It's really not lies, there is people who keep records of appearances which show what is factual and not rather than people just saying "aye that is true"

Even accounting for transfer bans Rangers still had the opportunity to recruit and build a different model than the one we did.... and that did offer the chance to sign most of the players mentioned.

Ok mate. You've made up your mind. Another snide dig about people keeping facts. These guys played loads.

We played lots of young guys.

We had a matter of weeks to put a team together due to licence issues and embargoes.

If you've got a different recollection then that's cool.
 
We did waste a lot of money on overpriced dud has beens. Investing in the right players would have made us more money by now. It wssnt until warburton came in we recruited better and even then some were shite.
 
Ok mate. You've made up your mind. Another snide dig about people keeping facts. These guys played loads.

We played lots of young guys.

We had a matter of weeks to put a team together due to licence issues and embargoes.

If you've got a different recollection then that's cool.

No, it's not a snide dig its making reference to actual things.....
 
No, it's not a snide dig its making reference to actual things.....

If you honestly don't think Perry,Mitchell, Hegarty, Crawford, Hutton, MacLeod, Aird, Little, etc played absolutely loads that first year in division 3 then that's cool mate.
 
If you honestly don't think Perry,Mitchell, Hegarty, Crawford, Hutton, MacLeod, Aird, Little, etc played absolutely loads that first year in division 3 then that's cool mate.

I don't think Perry and Mitchell played all the time because they fucken didn't Mitchell played about a handful of league games at the arse of the season, that's not a thing i think that's an actual thing.

Mitchell is someone who in the entirety of his career played 10 games for us that in seemingly only one persons terms counts as "all the time"


Yes we played a selective group of youth often, it was a handful of players at best, Perry was never a regular and was pretty much a missing person after Tanadice.
 
I don't think Perry and Mitchell played all the time because they fucken didn't Mitchell played about a handful of league games at the arse of the season, that's not a thing i think that's an actual thing.

Mitchell is someone who in the entirety of his career played 10 games for us that in seemingly only one persons terms counts as "all the time"


Calm down mate. I listed loads of players not just those three.

You obviously forgot we played loads of young guys a lot so have honed in on certain ones on the list that didn't play so much so you can argue it. They still played a significant part in the season.

Go get a can of juice.
 
We theoretically could have had a very good core of players if a coach had been able to sell a solid vision, is that fair to say?

I appreciate it might have been difficult to attract and identify these players but it does offer a glimpse of what slipped through the net, or markets we could still be exploring at least?

The obvious being Robertson, McGinn who was achievable when leaving St Mirren he went to Hibs, Allen, McLean, Shankland and in another scenario possibly even Christie.

This isn't a way to dwell on the past, it was more just a look back at our future and a theoretical how it could and should have been even despite the kick in the balls we took.

With correct investment that period could have been a lot more enjoyable than it was.

***this isn't even just a way as to kick the shit out of McCoist either as it is easy to say things with hindsight.

No, regardless of vision most players were having to sacrifice three years of their careers to plod through the lower leagues of Scottish football.

Robertson would have sat behind Lee Wallace and would never have developed at the rate with a lack of first-team football.

McGinn wasn't particularly a standout, nor was Shankland. Christie had yet to make his Inverness debut in 2012 and would then have been subject to the transfer embargo and, again wasn't a standout.

Unless we were going to pay vastly over the odds for what we were going to get, dropping down to D3 was a MASSIVE gamble for any player and one few - particularly youngsters would have rated as better than our own at the time - would have been happy to take.
 
Well, that's not even remotely true is it.....

To validate just untrue it is, our top performances that season included Cribari, Agyriou, Faure, Black and Sandaza - they were as much a core of that first season as any young players.

I would imagine Sandaza alone most likely cost the would be costs of having for example Robertson, McGinn and Shankland during the entire tenure of a 4 year contract with us...

And that was just our first season additions, it steadily regressed the further we went.

The question is around the idea of an alternative football and business model and philosophy which could have been used to find far more cost effective yet talented players from the lower leagues in Scotland and St Mirren, I don't think it's that absurd a view personally.....

We did quite patently miss out on what was quite achievable talent during that period - the level of talent would most likely have been even further reaching with a better grounding of a chairman and coach.

Faure was 20/21. Isn't that a young player?
 
No, regardless of vision most players were having to sacrifice three years of their careers to plod through the lower leagues of Scottish football.

Robertson would have sat behind Lee Wallace and would never have developed at the rate with a lack of first-team football.

McGinn wasn't particularly a standout, nor was Shankland. Christie had yet to make his Inverness debut in 2012 and would then have been subject to the transfer embargo and, again wasn't a standout.

Unless we were going to pay vastly over the odds for what we were going to get, dropping down to D3 was a MASSIVE gamble for any player and one few - particularly youngsters would have rated as better than our own at the time - would have been happy to take.


They were never a "standout" because they were developing talent.
 
Faure was 20/21. Isn't that a young player?

Not the criteria of a player with the ability to develop, he was overweight and a bit pish.....

The identification of talent and ability to coach had failed hence I caveated that in my original post.
 
I seriously doubt it.
Robertson, maybe at a push.
McGinn would never sign for us.

McGinn signed for Hibs, I would imagine on buttons, I would doubt at that time if he would have given a %^*& what his leanings were if offered the wages of Law, Templeton, Black and co.

Supposed leanings soon fade when it comes to making money from a profession
 
Whilst the debate on the OP's topic is interesting and thought provoking, some of the names mentioned in the thread have me nightmares, having erased those names from my memory, and some of the awful performances under McCoist and his backroom staff. Given our financial plight, and the alleged business plan and their credibility of the so called board and leadership at the time, I guess we could only pee with the cock we had then?
Thank God for King and SG's management team now!
Happier days beckon:)):)):))
 
Not the criteria of a player with the ability to develop, he was overweight and a bit pish.....

The identification of talent and ability to coach had failed hence I caveated that in my original post.

He'd recently left Lyon's Academy and had played every minute for France's under-19s as they lifted the Euros at that age group (the only player in the squad to do so).in 2010, was part of the U20 World Cup squad in 2011 then joined us in 2012.
 
He'd recently left Lyon's Academy and had played every minute for France's under-19s as they lifted the Euros at that age group (the only player in the squad to do so).in 2010, was part of the U20 World Cup squad in 2011 then joined us in 2012.

Aye you are right to be fair, his career worked out well.
 
I've often thought the same thing. The idea of starting again with mostly youths and a few seasoned professionals and then emerging at the end with them battle hardened is a sound one. The problem was McCoist was too lazy to put the work in.

This is offensively inaccurate nonsense. Anyone who knows anything about that time will tell you that Ally was completely pulled apart during the period and spent his time dealing with a multitude of non footballing matters. To say he was lazy is a scandalous comment. The other side to that is that it’s fantasy nonsense to think we’d have progressed through the leagues with kids. Our current crop are the best we’ve had in years and I’d say with confidence that we would not win League 2 with that team.
 
This is offensively inaccurate nonsense. Anyone who knows anything about that time will tell you that Ally was completely pulled apart during the period and spent his time dealing with a multitude of non footballing matters. To say he was lazy is a scandalous comment. The other side to that is that it’s fantasy nonsense to think we’d have progressed through the leagues with kids. Our current crop are the best we’ve had in years and I’d say with confidence that we would not win League 2 with that team.

As is the fallacy anyone ever wanted to hand break us to ever actually just solely using youth either to be fair...
 
If every mam
Aye you are right to be fair, his career worked out well.
I can point to examples for every single manager that has happened with.
But to say the boy never came here with some sort of pedigree is laughable.
 
I can point to examples for every single manager that has happened with.
But to say the boy never came here with some sort of pedigree is laughable.

Yeah, he offered the appearance of a player looking to develop - a man at the peak of his physical powers so he was.
 
It's a nice idea and one that was discussed on here at the time .

That we build a team of the best youth talent in Scotland and by the time they get up through the league's and into the spfl they would have played over 100 first team games together.

However, the off field shambles and the fear of meeting the scum in a cup ment we signed cheap players with SPL experience.
For that reason (drawing the scum in a cup), I can see why we did that
 
So that stopped them being a standout at youth level?

Yip, not all players will standout at youth level, it can take players time to develop, grow, progress - tis part of talent identification and scouting - spotting flaws in players see Faure as an example of the opositie I suppose, clearly just someone with no desire to kick on in the game...

RE the players not standing out.

To most who bothered to watch Rangers then Robertson and Shankland had "stood out" - they had stood out to the extent they were signed by Dundee United and Aberdeen, McGinn had played in a side who won the League Cup Final and stood enough for Hibs to sign him, so they had done enough for people to notice them - there was no miracle formulae to it - they were decent young Scottish talent being picked up by clubs around us, or who we could outbid at a time we signed players like Nicky Law, Fran Sandaza, Ian Black, Ricky Foster etc and so on.

They are just examples, there is no rocket being reinvented here.... our identification of talent during that period was a disaster, but under better coaching the chance was there for better even in the lower leagues and there is evidence and examples of it.
 
Last edited:
Yip, not all players will standout at youth level, it can take players time to develop, grow, progress - tis part of talent identification and scouting - spotting flaws in players see Faure as an example of the opositie I suppose, clearly just someone with no desire to kick on in the game...

RE the players not standing out.

To most who bothered to watch Rangers then Robertson and Shankland had "stood out" - they had stood out to the extent they were signed by Dundee United and Aberdeen, McGinn had played in a side who won the League Cup Final and stood enough for Hibs to sign him, so they had done enough for people to notice them - there was no miracle formulae to it - they were decent young Scottish talent being picked up by clubs around us, or who we could outbid at a time we signed players like Nicky Law, Fran Sandaza, Ian Black, Ricky Foster etc and so on.

We already had plenty of decent young talent. Macleod and McKay were being held up as the future of the club, Charlie Telfer was apparently hard done by because he never got enough games (his career worked out well too) and there were boys like Hutton etc who had CL experience and played in title winning teams. Shankland went to Aberdeen and spent three years in the reserves. It's only been the last year or two it has come good for him. Before that he struggled consistently.
 
We already had plenty of decent young talent. Macleod and McKay were being held up as the future of the club, Charlie Telfer was apparently hard done by because he never got enough games (his career worked out well too) and there were boys like Hutton etc who had CL experience and played in title winning teams. Shankland went to Aberdeen and spent three years in the reserves. It's only been the last year or two it has come good for him. Before that he struggled consistently.

So because a football club has talented players, it shouldn't sign more talented players - new one.
 
So because we had talented players, we weren't allowed to sign more talented players?

Not unless they are a vast improvement on what we have. All of those players mentioned wouldn't have greatly improved our team at the time.
 
Not unless they are a vast improvement on what we have. All of those players mentioned wouldn't have greatly improved our team at the time.

What is not a point I am making ..and even at that I mean, they clearly would have improved us.
 
I've often thought the same thing. The idea of starting again with mostly youths and a few seasoned professionals and then emerging at the end with them battle hardened is a sound one. The problem was McCoist was too lazy to put the work in.


The problem was the youths weren’t good enough. No other Rangers manager has ever give more of a chance to youth than Ally McCoist. Aird,Hutton,Perry,Crawford,Hemmings, Gasparotto, Lewis McLeod, Barry McKay, Andy Mitchell, Andy Murdoch. Loads of youth players were given opportunities during that period from 2013 onward
 
The problem was the youths weren’t good enough. No other Rangers manager has ever give more of a chance to youth than Ally McCoist. Aird,Hutton,Perry,Crawford,Hemmings, Gasparotto, Lewis McLeod, Barry McKay, Andy Mitchell, Andy Murdoch. Loads of youth players were given opportunities during that period from 2013 onward

It depends on the definition of giving youth a chance - not entirely convinced simply playing people solely constitutes giving people a chance.
 
He'd recently left Lyon's Academy and had played every minute for France's under-19s as they lifted the Euros at that age group (the only player in the squad to do so).in 2010, was part of the U20 World Cup squad in 2011 then joined us in 2012.
He had also made a couple of appearances for Lyons senior team. Removing any blue tinted specs he had the best pedigree/potential of any of our youth players by a distance.
 
forgot about that days next time we look it will be remember that time when gerrard got us the 55th title. team is full of class players with a class manager. changed days from Ian Black etc
 
It depends on the definition of giving youth a chance - not entirely convinced simply playing people solely constitutes giving people a chance.

the definition of giving players a chance - by playing them. What is it the you know he didn’t do with those players. Despite the majority of his time being spent in meetings with Duff & Phelps, Whyte & Green and generally holding the entire football club together. How about people accept that no other Rangers manager has had to operate in the same way as Ally McCoist did during his time as manager. I haven’t forgotten when he said “we don’t do walking away” and he was THE only bit of hope we had. Quite frankly at that time I would’ve settled for just having 11 players in a blue jersey on the pitch
 
I am happily stating the football model we had during that time was a fucken shambles and if we had bought smarter, scouted better and coached better we would have been better off...

If a better football structure had been in place and we had made additions, achievable additions like McGinn, Robertson and Shankland we would have been in a lot better place as a football club than going down the route we did.....


What was shankland doing in 2013 ? Robertson & Mcginn ? I doubt they would’ve signed for Rangers
 
the definition of giving players a chance - by playing them. What is it the you know he didn’t do with those players. Despite the majority of his time being spent in meetings with Duff & Phelps, Whyte & Green and generally holding the entire football club together. How about people accept that no other Rangers manager has had to operate in the same way as Ally McCoist did during his time as manager. I haven’t forgotten when he said “we don’t do walking away” and he was THE only bit of hope we had. Quite frankly at that time I would’ve settled for just having 11 players in a blue jersey on the pitch

The development and "chance" goes a lot deeper than simply playing players, there has been enough critique of McCoist now from people to establish he most likely wasn't the best coach in the world.

As I said at the start of this this isn't intended to have a dig at McCoist, but since it is going down that track yes his work of the field was admirable, his work as a coach wasn't even accounting for the owners of the club etc - you can still coach people etc - if anything you would have thought that part would be the relief.
 
Last edited:
What was shankland doing in 2013 ? Robertson & Mcginn ? I doubt they would’ve signed for Rangers

It isn't solely about that season, it was about the entirety of actually attempting to build a club despite being on the lower leagues - it wasn't the mountainous task it was made to look, difficult yes, but if it had been looked at from other or better angles, there was the chance to actually collect talent who would have

A: Served a longer term purpose

B: Not cost a small fortune with no return.

The base premise of a lot of the counter points here seems to be that we needed the likes of Kyle, Sandazza etc and shouldn't have expected better and more progressive than what we saw.

Odd.
 
It isn't solely about that season, it was about the entirety of actually attempting to build a club despite being on the lower leagues - it wasn't the mountainous task it was made to look.
Its much easier when you willingly disregard a lot of what was going on around the club at the time.
 
Its much easier when you willingly disregard a lot of what was going on around the club at the time.

Two things.

1 - the title of the thread is a decent clue.

2 - at no point have I ignored what went around the club, even if talking about that circumstance I flat out refuse the idea no better work could have been than that which was achieved.
 
Aye cos Seb Faure's the first player in history not to look fit. Surprised Real never just ripped up Eden Hazards contract after he showed up a stone overweight

Yeah, fair point, I should have actually have expected players to be unfit instead - silly me for not expecting that
 
I've often thought the same thing. The idea of starting again with mostly youths and a few seasoned professionals and then emerging at the end with them battle hardened is a sound one. The problem was McCoist was too lazy to put the work in.
Sorry but you cannot solely blame McCoist. Maybe he did share that vision, but also knew if he went down that route and we never got promoted, he would be sacked.
Even back then, we are unforgiving as a fan base and any manager is 3 defeats from the sack.
In summation, a team full of young lads with 3 or 4 old heads to guide them is great in theory but too risky for a club that needed 3 back to back promotions
 
Yeah, fair point, I should have actually have expected players to be unfit instead - silly me for not expecting that
Its par for the course with players returning after the summer. Remember the several months it took Morelos to get up to speed when he arrived?
 
Absolute non starter if we're talking about the old "project". Guys like black, Kyle, shiels etc. Were brought in because they were deemed to be far better than the immediate competition and thus would get us back up the leagues quickly. The clamour to play a team of kids/prospects still perplexes me to this day. That sort of thing is fine for a club that is content with a 6th or 7th place finish for a few seasons until things "click" or players improve enough to make a real impact. We're Rangers, you simply don't get that luxury here. Jesus Christ half our support are having aneurysms and demanding substitutions or screaming to get the ball into the box if we have a couple of misplaced passes or haven't scored by 15 minutes.

Now if King had been there from 2012 and we'd had a manager worth his salt given decent transfer funds, we could have potentially been back in the top flight within 3 seasons with a domestic cup under our belt. We'll never know.
Said it better than me.
We are the rangers. We don't do projects
 

Which is grand I mean a total exaggeration like and a bit like saying all women have tits, I mean they do, they don't all have tits like Kelly Brook though, or even Seb Faure for that matter - in the same way all footballers don't rock up in the physical state Faure was in and was still in months after his arrival, he was a fat mess.

It was twofold with him, many others during that period of time.

Should the fitness regimes have been better, clearly - it has been discussed endlessly but %^*& sake a bit of professional pride is nice as well, which Faure patently lacks.

Faure turned up in a physical state most punters would have a ridder to walk the street like yet alone claim a wage as a professional football player, but if that's what you look for and accept in a player fair enough.

Fair play for defending it though, funny read if nothing else.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top