Is Klopp a better manager than Pep?

4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 are almost the same formation.

My point is that if you're calling 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3 a significant change then I'm not sure I'd agree with you.
The whole point of the AM in his 4231 was having Gotze or Kagawa as a playmaker running off Lewandowski. The two midfielders at the base were basically defensive. The wide players were wingers.

Now he plays with two inside forwards and two passers in the midfield, the space where the AM was is now voided. Even Fabinho isn’t just a pivot in midfield.

He has evolved a lot.
 
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Klopp basically had his entire tactical system destroyed one year at Dortmund (can’t remember what season?).

It’s crazy to think he hasn’t gone on and rebuilt his way of playing with fresh ideas.
 
The whole point of the AM in his 4231 was having Gotze or Kagawa as a playmaker running off Lewandowski. The two midfielders at the base were basically defensive. The wide players were wingers.

Now he plays with two inside forwards and two passers in the midfield, the space where the AM was is now voided. Even Fabinho isn’t just a pivot in midfield.

He has evolved a lot.

You're now telling me guys like Reus and Gotze are wingers and Klopp now plays with inside forwards. I'm out.
 
No, Pep's success as a manager lies in having a particular vision as to the way football should be played, and in persuading his players to buy into his philosophy. In addition to being a brilliant tactical coach, he is also a superb teacher, having developed the skills of the young players in his squad - Fodden and Sterling for e.g. as well as managing to providing playing time for other young players on the periphery of the first team squad.

And having the chequebook to do it.
 
Klopp basically had his entire tactical system destroyed one year at Dortmund (can’t remember what season?).

It’s crazy to think he hasn’t gone on and rebuilt his way of playing with fresh ideas.

I agree with that like I can remember that season (2014/2015 it was) and at times they/he looked lost. That was when they were actually bottom before Xmas at the end of one match day I think. They went to Hertha Berlin and went 1 down and nothing changed all match, when he went Liverpool the same scenario happened away to Newcastle in December 2015 and again he couldn’t change it, was just long balls really and never looked like scoring. I didn’t think he would pull this off at Liverpool because of matches like that but he has done and it’s been amazing really.
 
If it’s just down to money why are Barcelona not dominating still?Why did it take Pep going to city to turn them into the team they are the now?

Barcelona aren’t dominant as they used to be because there golden generation got old and retired, as well as the poor choices of the board in manager choice and player recruitment. In saying that Barca have won titles in recent years, and they are still competitive in the CL.
 
Barcelona aren’t dominant as they used to be because there golden generation got old and retired, as well as the poor choices of the board in manager choice and player recruitment. In saying that Barca have won titles in recent years, and they are still competitive in the CL.

Do you think they would be as poor as they are now with Pep in charge?
 
Barcelona aren’t dominant as they used to be because there golden generation got old and retired, as well as the poor choices of the board in manager choice and player recruitment. In saying that Barca have won titles in recent years, and they are still competitive in the CL.

Why were their golden generation never as dominant under any other manager? Why were they only dominant under Pep?
 
Why were their golden generation never as dominant under any other manager? Why were they only dominant under Pep?
They won a treble under Enrique in 2015. Messi, Xavi and Iniesta were all involved. They famously embarrassed Pep’s Bayern en route to the final too.
 
Bayern had won the league 2 of the previous 4 years, finishing 4th in one of those seasons, then finished 3rd the first year Dortmund won the league.

Lets not pretend Bayern were some sort of unstoppable force that needed to be "knocked off their perch" at the time.
I’ll stop pretending that Bayern were an unstoppable force when you stop downplaying the pretty much unlimited resources Guardiola has had at every club he has managed at and you stop pretending that Barcelona, Bayern and City were all in the doldrums when he took over them respectively.
 
They won a treble under Enrique in 2015. Messi, Xavi and Iniesta were all involved. They famously embarrassed Pep’s Bayern en route to the final too.

This is where I think people are overly critical with Guardiola and where selective memories kick in.

He went into that semi with neither of Robben or Ribery, his two best players. Do you think Barca would have sailed through that tie if Bayern started with Robben and Ribery and Barca were missing Messi and Iniesta?
 
Is klopp better than pep ? the short answer is no - Man City have won 6 of the last 8 domestic trophies and are probably going to make it 7 of 9 (although Man Utd might have something to say about that) Liverpool have won 1.
 
I’ll stop pretending that Bayern were an unstoppable force when you stop downplaying the pretty much unlimited resources Guardiola has had at every club he has managed at and you stop pretending that Barcelona, Bayern and City were all in the doldrums when he took over them respectively.

Ive never said they were in the doldrums. I’m merely pointing out that Pep has had greater sustained success at all these clubs than any other manager before or after him.
 
This is where I think people are overly critical with Guardiola and where selective memories kick in.

He went into that semi with neither of Robben or Ribery, his two best players. Do you think Barca would have sailed through that tie if Bayern started with Robben and Ribery and Barca were missing Messi and Iniesta?
Suppose it’s always a factor mate, but Messi was playing at such at a high level that season I don’t think it would’ve made a difference.
 
Ive never said they were in the doldrums. I’m merely pointing out that Pep has had greater sustained success at all these clubs than any other manager before or after him.
Much like I didn’t make out that Bayern were an unstoppable force. They certainly were knocked off their perch.

No doubt Pep is a good manager, one of the greatest of all time. But he has been aided financially (as has Klopp at Liverpool) in all of his jobs. You also need to take into account that at Barca he had Messi when he was starting to become a superstar. A number of the players in that team who he had not purchased and were already there peaked while he was manager such as Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol etc. Pep has clearly had more success but he has also never been in a position where he has had to rip up a team from scratch and build them. He has more often than not tinkered with an already strong base. What Klopp done at Dortmund and Liverpool has been spectacular and for me makes him the better manager overall.
 
So their peak was 1 season?
They won a treble FS haha. Messi has won the CL without Guardiola, not vice versa. I rate Pep too, I just don’t think he’s above criticism. You can’t keep covering up the fact he hasn’t reached one CL final in 8 years, especially with some of the draws he’s had, like Tottenham in the quarters last year.
 
This is where I think people are overly critical with Guardiola and where selective memories kick in.

He went into that semi with neither of Robben or Ribery, his two best players. Do you think Barca would have sailed through that tie if Bayern started with Robben and Ribery and Barca were missing Messi and Iniesta?

They had a few out the year before against Real as well, although in the second leg their weakness at defending set pieces was badly exposed - he never managed to sort that out at Bayern.
 
Much like I didn’t make out that Bayern were an unstoppable force. They certainly were knocked off their perch.

No doubt Pep is a good manager, one of the greatest of all time. But he has been aided financially (as has Klopp at Liverpool) in all of his jobs. You also need to take into account that at Barca he had Messi when he was starting to become a superstar. A number of the players in that team who he had not purchased and were already there peaked while he was manager such as Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol etc. Pep has clearly had more success but he has also never been in a position where he has had to rip up a team from scratch and build them. He has more often than not tinkered with an already strong base. What Klopp done at Dortmund and Liverpool has been spectacular and for me makes him the better manager overall.

Pep overhauled both Barca and City.

Both are great managers, Pep is just better.
 
They won a treble FS haha. Messi has won the CL without Guardiola, not vice versa. I rate Pep too, I just don’t think he’s above criticism. You can’t keep covering up the fact he hasn’t reached one CL final in 8 years, especially with some of the draws he’s had, like Tottenham in the quarters last year.

Pep has his flaws, no doubt about it. He’s still a better manager than Klopp though.
 
They won a treble FS haha. Messi has won the CL without Guardiola, not vice versa. I rate Pep too, I just don’t think he’s above criticism. You can’t keep covering up the fact he hasn’t reached one CL final in 8 years, especially with some of the draws he’s had, like Tottenham in the quarters last year.

Is there not a stat about his teams having poor records away in the CL knockout stages as well? Rarely win or something, might have improved now mind.
 
Suppose it’s always a factor mate, but Messi was playing at such at a high level that season I don’t think it would’ve made a difference.

He was definitely the difference mate. They were struggling for a goal till he went up a gear in the last 10 or so minutes of the game.
 
They had a few out the year before against Real as well, although in the second leg their weakness at defending set pieces was badly exposed - he never managed to sort that out at Bayern.

You’re right of course. No one ever mentions it though, it’s conveniently ignored to have a go at him. Would Heynckes have done that treble without Ribery and Robben? Would he fùck! Does Klopp win the league or CL without Salah and Mane? Or Salah and Henderson? I very much doubt it. You take a manager’s two best players away it’ll always have a significant impact. I think people are just a bit fed up of the fawning over Guardiola after these years, and as we know as Rangers fans, people generally dislike clubs and coaches who are successful.
 
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Pep has his flaws, no doubt about it. He’s still a better manager than Klopp though.
Klopp has his flaws too, Liverpool’s domestic cup record under him should be a lot better (1 Wembley appearance in 4 and a half years). They haven’t even reached a semi final under him in the FA cup, it’s something they must improve upon over the next couple of years.
 
You’re right of course. No one ever mentions it though, it’s conveniently ignored to have a go at him. Would Heynckes have done that treble without Ribery and Robben? Wood he fùck! Does Klopp win the league or CL without Salah and Mane? Or Salah and Henderson? I very much doubt it. You take a manager’s two best players away it’ll always have a significant impact. I think people are just a bit fed up of the fawning over Guardiola after these years, and as we know as Rangers fans, people generally dislike clubs and coaches who are successful.

Think it was Thiago who got injured that season. Gotze was a big letdown at Bayern obviously, still see people who think he would be a great signing for a top Club but since going Bayern he’s never been the same.
 
Overhauled them, I hardly think so. Funniest comment I have read on here in a while.

Barcelona’s last line up before Pep took over.

Pinto
Puyol
Thuram
Abidal
Oleguer
Xavi
Gudjohnsson
Eto’o
Henry
Dos Santos
Messi

Barcelona team that won the Champions league the next season

Valdes
Puyol
Pique
Toure
Sylvinho
Busquets
Xavi
Iniesta
Messi
Henry
Eto’o

City’s last line up before Pep took over

Hart
Sagna
Otamendi
Mangala
Clichy
Navas
Fernandinho
Reges
De Bruyne
Aguero
Iheanacho

City’s line up when they won the first league under Pep

Ederson
Walker
Kompany
Laporte
Delph
Gundogan
De Bruyne
Silva
Sterling
Sane
Jesus

So yeah, he overhauled both clubs to make them successful.
 
If City played Liverpool Over the next Two weeks in the Champions league who would you put your house on. For me Liverpool every day of the week.
Liverpool have switched off for the season but both teams at full tilt then Klopp has Pep on toast.
 
Barcelona’s last line up before Pep took over.

Pinto
Puyol
Thuram
Abidal
Oleguer
Xavi
Gudjohnsson
Eto’o
Henry
Dos Santos
Messi

Barcelona team that won the Champions league the next season

Valdes
Puyol
Pique
Toure
Sylvinho
Busquets
Xavi
Iniesta
Messi
Henry
Eto’o

City’s last line up before Pep took over

Hart
Sagna
Otamendi
Mangala
Clichy
Navas
Fernandinho
Reges
De Bruyne
Aguero
Iheanacho

City’s line up when they won the first league under Pep

Ederson
Walker
Kompany
Laporte
Delph
Gundogan
De Bruyne
Silva
Sterling
Sane
Jesus

So yeah, he overhauled both clubs to make them successful.
And yet he is still not as good as Jurgen Klopp.
 
Ah, now that you're proved wrong with facts you've no come back.
You haven’t proved anyone wrong with facts. If Pep is so good why has he not, despite unlimited funding, led a team to a Champions League final since 2011? Yet Klopp has done this on three occasions during the same period. See, you have now been proved wrong with stats.
 
You haven’t proved anyone wrong with facts. If Pep is so good why has he not, despite unlimited funding, led a team to a Champions League final since 2011? Yet Klopp has done this on three occasions during the same period. See, you have now been proved wrong with stats.

Is that all you’ve got? So the barometer of success is taking a team to the Champions League final in the past 9 years?

We’ll throw out the fact that Pep has won the champions league more times than Klopp.

Pep should’ve done better in the Champions League the past 9 years but Klopp should’ve done much better domestically by that standard.

Pep is on course for 7 of the last 9 trophies in England ffs. Stop making him out to be some sort of failure.
 
Is that all you’ve got? So the barometer of success is taking a team to the Champions League final in the past 9 years?

We’ll throw out the fact that Pep has won the champions league more times than Klopp.

Pep should’ve done better in the Champions League the past 9 years but Klopp should’ve done much better domestically by that standard.

Pep is on course for 7 of the last 9 trophies in England ffs. Stop making him out to be some sort of failure.
I’ve not said he is a failure. I think you’ll find I actually said in a previous post to you that he is one of the greatest managers of all time. By your logic José is a better manager than Klopp when we both know that he isn’t. And why is the Champions League not allowed to be used as a barometer of success? It’s not the only one obviously but you seem happy to disregard it when it comes to Klopp but use it to big up Pep at Barca.
 
I’ve not said he is a failure. I think you’ll find I actually said in a previous post to you that he is one of the greatest managers of all time. By your logic José is a better manager than Klopp when we both know that he isn’t. And why is the Champions League not allowed to be used as a barometer of success? It’s not the only one obviously but you seem happy to disregard it when it comes to Klopp but use it to big up Pep at Barca.

Jose is yesterday’s man, that much is evident.

I’m not disregarding anything. Pep has won the champions league more times than Klopp, they’ve both made the same number of finals, Pep has made the semis way more often than Klopp.

You’re cherry picking stats to try and prove something that’s not true. Peps overall record in Europe is far better than Klopps, Peps domestic record is far better than Klopps.
 
Jose is yesterday’s man, that much is evident.

I’m not disregarding anything. Pep has won the champions league more times than Klopp, they’ve both made the same number of finals, Pep has made the semis way more often than Klopp.

You’re cherry picking stats to try and prove something that’s not true. Peps overall record in Europe is far better than Klopps, Peps domestic record is far better than Klopps.

To be fair Klopp’s been in 3 Champions League finals (2 with Liverpool and 1 with Dortmund), Guardiola has been in 2, of which he won both.
 
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I think with Klopp the highs are higher, but the lows are lower.
Pep is a bit more consistently excellent.
I could see, for example, Klopp collapsing with Liverpool and getting sacked. Just couldn’t see the same thing happening with Pep at Man City.
 
Barcelona’s last line up before Pep took over.

Pinto
Puyol
Thuram
Abidal
Oleguer
Xavi
Gudjohnsson
Eto’o
Henry
Dos Santos
Messi

Barcelona team that won the Champions league the next season

Valdes
Puyol
Pique
Toure
Sylvinho
Busquets
Xavi
Iniesta
Messi
Henry
Eto’o

City’s last line up before Pep took over

Hart
Sagna
Otamendi
Mangala
Clichy
Navas
Fernandinho
Reges
De Bruyne
Aguero
Iheanacho

City’s line up when they won the first league under Pep

Ederson
Walker
Kompany
Laporte
Delph
Gundogan
De Bruyne
Silva
Sterling
Sane
Jesus

So yeah, he overhauled both clubs to make them successful.
You can’t just give two line ups and assume that means an overhaul. Players could have been injured or suspended.
 
Can’t call it. Pep clearly the more successful but three times inherited phenomenal squads. At Dortmund Jurgen won the title twice, once with a record points haul, and got to a CL final, losing in the last minute. He has a title, a CL win and a CL final with Liverpool, having inherited a poor squad. Yes he’s had money to spend but so has Pep and Jurgen has had to play catch up. Would be interested to see Pep try to turn a team around.
 
What i like about Klopp is it took him a few seasons to get it right, in hoping Gerrards the same
 
Jose is yesterday’s man, that much is evident.

I’m not disregarding anything. Pep has won the champions league more times than Klopp, they’ve both made the same number of finals, Pep has made the semis way more often than Klopp.

You’re cherry picking stats to try and prove something that’s not true. Peps overall record in Europe is far better than Klopps, Peps domestic record is far better than Klopps.
As are you cherry picking stats to support your opinion. Your opinion is not the “truth” but simply your opinion. As is mine. Pep has been extremely successful in what he has achieved but he has always had pretty much unlimited resources. If Pep takes over from Brendan Rodgers instead of Klopp, I don’t believe we would have seen Liverpool crowned European Champions or winning the EPL. You put Klopp in charge of City during the same period and the evidence would suggest that Klopp wins EPL and potentially Champions League. There is no evidence to suggest Pep would have been a success at Liverpool. He has never been in charge of the “underdog”. Klopp has and has worked wonders at every club he has managed, particularly Mainz and BVB. That for me is why Klopp is the better manager.
 
As are you cherry picking stats to support your opinion. Your opinion is not the “truth” but simply your opinion. As is mine. Pep has been extremely successful in what he has achieved but he has always had pretty much unlimited resources. If Pep takes over from Brendan Rodgers instead of Klopp, I don’t believe we would have seen Liverpool crowned European Champions or winning the EPL. You put Klopp in charge of City during the same period and the evidence would suggest that Klopp wins EPL and potentially Champions League. There is no evidence to suggest Pep would have been a success at Liverpool. He has never been in charge of the “underdog”. Klopp has and has worked wonders at every club he has managed, particularly Mainz and BVB. That for me is why Klopp is the better manager.

It's nonsense to suggest Pep has had unlimited resources. It's also nonsense to suggest Pep wouldn't be successful with Liverpool but Klopp would be with City.

Pep has been a serial winner everywhere he's been ffs.

28 trophies v 9 trophies sums it up for me.
 
It's nonsense to suggest Pep has had unlimited resources. It's also nonsense to suggest Pep wouldn't be successful with Liverpool but Klopp would be with City.

Pep has been a serial winner everywhere he's been ffs.

28 trophies v 9 trophies sums it up for me.

I don’t think you can directly compare the trophies. Pep has been at the biggest club in each league. Klopp hasn’t.
 
I don’t think you can directly compare the trophies. Pep has been at the biggest club in each league. Klopp hasn’t.

Again, why do people keep telling porkies with regards to Guardiola?

Madrid are bigger than Barcelona, have more financial power than Barcelona, and on what planet are Manchester City the biggest club in England?
 
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