Is Scotland’s population size really the reason?

The way we play in Scotland is not conducive to developing youngsters between 18-22.

Maybe if our domestic game wasnt so physical, younger players would be able to develop without hammer throwers kicking and elbowing lumps out of them.

A clampdown by referees on thuggish play would help.
Big part of the problem for me. Even when it comes to our own fans - Players like Dykes and Katic get massive write ups while players like Hagi go well under the radar.

Sad truth is fans and coaches here shout out for blood and thunder rather than technical ability.
 
We've got 14 year olds turning up on a Sunday (or calling off) because they've been out on to the Bucky the night before.

The facilities are generally shite as well.

Huge lack of coaches outside the central belt to run take, never mind them actually being any good.

We just don't invest in sports in Scotland and kids only care about getting out to the pub and ramming shite they think is coke up their noses.
 
We are a lazy nation, looking at the amount of kids making it at top level and coming through down south, the hunger seems to have gone from the vast majority. More impoverished youths have the greater hunger to succeed.

Theres no denying we in Scotland have talent but we don’t push it on from 18 onwards.

definitely in regards the hunger to succeed not just in football , not all but a large percentage seem to think we have a state that will provide all .......
 
Theres almost 0 places close to where I live for kids to play the game at a young age with friends? Most local pitches are locked up or paid access only. Add to that the culture of parents just shouting abuse from the sidelines at children during early stage football and its no wonder we barely produce any players.
 
I can't remember Scotland being successful under the Conservatives or SNP. Just can't remember it . Wonder why ?
Scotland as a country was always very conservative in its institutions.
If you want to see the damage left-wing politics has caused to the nation you have to look inside the institutions.
They have ruined education.
Totally fckn destroyed it!

Indeed, you would actually have to suspect that they set out to ruin it because such devastation cannot occur by mere chance or incompetence.
Now they are set on totally destroying western civilisation.

Hey, but who is surprised to find that left-wing politics is evil after all it isn't as if the evidence of Russia, China and the Eastern Bloc in Europe hadn't told us that already.
Unfortunately, the west is filled with cretinous intellectuals who are incapable of taking on board the lessons of the past and present.
 
Look at the format and the countries that competed in those tournaments, especially the first one.

Okay looked at it. They won it with a population of 2 million. Still quite a feat.

Look at their second in 1950. Beat Brazil in the "final" in the Maracana in front of almost 200,000 people.

Plus top four on three other occasions.

Are people really questioning Uruguay's achievements in the World Cup ?
 
There is probably a post size limit that prevents listing everything that is wrong in scottish football. Its broken from top to bottom and outwith that the country itself is the same.
We have no philosophy or plan about how we should play football which prevents us even having a plan of how to implement it.

Youth talent is wasted and that is partially the fault of Rangers and Celtic. Snap up all the best players in the youth ranks and then fail to develop them. Hopefully something that is changing at least where we are concerned.

No ambition other than to just not be beat and hope we qualify for stuff.

Attitudes towards age and foreign coaches.

Poor refereeing standards which encourage teams to just play big players with no ability other than kicking lumps out of other players.

At a board level in the SFA we have utter dinosaurs with only their own self interests at heart and no love of the game to go about trying to change it.

No fan voice in the game to even try and force that change.
 
Theres almost 0 places close to where I live for kids to play the game at a young age with friends? Most local pitches are locked up or paid access only. Add to that the culture of parents just shouting abuse from the sidelines at children during early stage football and its no wonder we barely produce any players.

This is an issue where I live. There's barely a grass pitch in the entire region with the goals up. There's plenty of all weather pitchers but they're expensive and hard to book unless it's 10pm on a Tuesday night or something.

All the council owned all weather are gated and locked as well so playing football is done on a PlayStation rather than with a ball.

At a higher level were partially to blame. We used to sign the best talent in the league, now we don't, with the support turning up their noses at Scottish players ( or what clubs want for them, it's apparently only ok for us to want market value) and until Patterson there's been no real pathway to first team football. The best Scottish youth go to English academies now and earn more money.
 
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Scotland as a country was always very conservative in its institutions.
If you want to see the damage left-wing politics has caused to the nation you have to look inside the institutions.
They have ruined education.
Totally fckn destroyed it!

Indeed, you would actually have to suspect that they set out to ruin it because such devastation cannot occur by mere chance or incompetence.
Now they are set on totally destroying western civilisation.

Hey, but who is surprised to find that left-wing politics is evil after all it isn't as if the evidence of Russia, China and the Eastern Bloc in Europe hadn't told us that already.
Unfortunately, the west is filled with cretinous intellectuals who are incapable of taking on board the lessons of the past and present.
England and the USA will be the biggest victims of full on Marxism.
 
We are a lazy nation, looking at the amount of kids making it at top level and coming through down south, the hunger seems to have gone from the vast majority. More impoverished youths have the greater hunger to succeed.

Theres no denying we in Scotland have talent but we don’t push it on from 18 onwards.
Absolutely bang on
 
This is an issue where in live. There barely a grass pitch in the entire region work goals up. There's plenty of all weather pitchers but they're expensive and hard to book unless it's 10pm on a Tuesday night or something.

All the council owned all weather are gated and locked as well so playing football is done on a PlayStation rather than with a ball.

At a higher level were partially to blame. We used to sign the best talent in the league, now we don't, with the support turning up their noses at Scottish players ( or what clubs want for them, it's apparently only ok for us to want market value) and until Patterson there's been no real pathway to first team football. The best Scottish youth go to English academies now and earn more money.
I'm only mid twenties and its actually gotten worse since I was younger. We had to play at concrete lockups because there was genuinely no place else. That early days of playing with friends and random children is where your love of the game is developed. Genuinely very sad to see.
 
Very limited factor if anything, going by populations argument China should wipe the floor with everyone.

China aren't really a traditional football country. Recent World Cup winners have all had pretty big populations: France, Germany, Brazil, Spain, Argentina. That's not a coincidence. Like I said, population is clearly a factor - but it certainly isn't everything.
 
You cannot totally discount population as a factor, but clearly, it isn't the defining one.
After all, each team is only allowed to field eleven players.

I am sure I read something about Norway having proportionally the most active sport's participants in the world or something like that, which allows them with a population of five million or so to punch way above their weight in any number of sporting competitions.

Poverty is also not that relevant, as most of the top football nations come from the richest countries on the planet.

I suppose there must be a number of factors in producing good sportspeople and being competitive at football, sadly I believe the ones that Scotland previously had to bear on this equation have fallen by the wayside.
I fully agree with you on poverty.

Look at countries like Puerto Rico, Cuba, or Venezuela and they produce plenty of massive baseball talent.
It's a way out of poverty for them, like our own Alfie with his football.

I think this thread perhaps highlights the biggest issue subconsciously.

We're not asking how we get better, we're looking for a reason to justify the mediocrity.
 
There are many reasons. Some have already mentioned this one I'm sure but speaking from personal experience unless you want to play on a park covered in dog shaite the other alternative is to pay 40 plus quid to play on the nearby facilities for an hour. What group of young kids are going to want to pay that to play on what's mostly plastic pitches kept in piss poor condition. A lot won't be able to afford it nevermind want to pay it.
There are obviously a number of reasons that combine to create the problem though.
 
The Scots relationship with drink and getting "mad wi it" with your mates seems to be a stumbling block for Scottish Football, I think we all must know a few lads who were really good at Football growing up then went of the rails to hang about with their mates and getting steaming at the weekend instead of dedicating themselves to training
 
Aye all that free health care is a nightmare.No political ideology is perfect but after 14 years of nationalist government we would be far better off with a strong Labour party.
What free health care?
I have paid for that second-rate health care throughout my entire working life!
Have you just spent yours on the dole?
 
compared with 30/40 years ago modern day Scotland offers a lot more to kids to take part in ........... 30/40 years ago it was jumpers for goalposts
 
Aye all that free health care is a nightmare.No political ideology is perfect but after 14 years of nationalist government we would be far better off with a strong Labour party.
Not arguing about the idea of free health care but do you reckon we're healthier now than say thirty or forty years ago? It is being abused and mismanaged and underpins a lot of the health issues we have today. Too many don't accept personal responsibility for their well-being safe in the knowledge that someone else will.
And that links to the 'why are we not Croatia?' question, it's wur kulchir.
 
I think there is plenty talented youngsters in Scotland but the system is terrible. I watched my son play from schools to pro youth with Clyde and Hamilton. At school I dont expect to see coaching as such, but when he started to play youth football it was all about kick the sh1t out of the opposition and work rate. My son was pretty good and played fir a team that won everything. Logic would suggest they must have some decent players but only one got a trial for Thistle and got the gig and got fed up with it chucked football. The boy was very good. Every one of these boys chucked football. My son loved football and certainly didnt drink etc... and was fit as can be.

When I watched pro youth training there was little or no coaching, certainly no individual coaching of how a player should play his position. Nor was there any player development. A training session consisted of the normal physical exercises, the some shooting and then some dribbling around cones etc.... really basic and boring stuff. Noteably there was actually very litte playing football involved nor having fun. The lack of fun I felt was important as that is what makes people start to play. The love of playing football. It was that bit that caused my son to chuck football. He lived for football and was desperate to play football. Scotlands pro youth system destroyed that love of playing football.

As a side note he fell in love with boxing and regarded the fitness and dedication of Scotlands professional footballers as a joke compared to boxers. Make of that what you want.

Our system isnt fit for purpose. Obviously as all our teams except Rangers or the mhanks fail at the first hurdle almost every year in Europe and win little or nothing is Scotland. It is nothing to do with youngsters talent. There is plenty of talented youngsters playing football. Just go out to our parks and see the numbers. Loads of school and youth teams. I dont believe its anything to with alcohol either. Even if that is the case then surely making a better system and keeping the players happy and enjoying playing football would educate them to keep clean and on the right track?

The fix is probably that we need to get rid of the circle Scottish footballers getting jobs managing and coaching the next generation. That goes for the SFA people as well. They all come from a Scottish football industry that has failed for decades. We need new blood and it looks as if that for a few generations it needs to be for the most part non Scottish people. People from countries that have a winning culture and have a culture of developing players. If we dont do something radical nothing will change. In 50 years this conversation will be repeated over and over.
 
I fully agree with you on poverty.

Look at countries like Puerto Rico, Cuba, or Venezuela and they produce plenty of massive baseball talent.
It's a way out of poverty for them, like our own Alfie with his football.

I think this thread perhaps highlights the biggest issue subconsciously.

We're not asking how we get better, we're looking for a reason to justify the mediocrity.
Poverty is obviously a factor in certain environments to producing sporting champions, but poverty in itself won't do it.
There has to be an environment for a hungry child to flourish in sport.
The mining towns of Scotland once produced great players, so did the favelas of Rio, but not so much the desperate poverty of Africa, given the huge populations affected by such poverty in that continent.
Further, the Dutch and Germans produce great players from relatively wealthy environments.

I think there are many dynamics at play in this and the factors vary from place to place and period to period.
Many of the advantageous factors that assisted young Scots seem to no longer exist and in my opinion, the evidence suggests that education is the most vital one.
 
I think its sort of obvious that the fewer players you have to choose from then the more limited you might be in general, so I don't think we can dismiss that. Obviously though, you can have every single youth playing lots of football, but if the coaching and facilities are shit then you're still going to struggle, regardless of population size.

For a long time we were doing ok at "unders" levels, then bombing at senior level. The thoughts then were that we were obsessed with competition and churning out big (aggressive?) athletes, which would carry you so far at younger levels... meanwhile the other countries were focusing on technique, such that their players would then catch up and overtake us at senior level. I think there's been a lot of emphasis on addressing that approach in recent years. How successful that has been is debatable... it's interesting that up until this year, the last time we were at a major tournament coincided with the introduction of the pro-youth system....

Personally I think there's a tension between a small country having a decent national team and having a decent domestic league. I don't have the stats, maybe I'm wrong... but I suspect that in order to have a decent national side then in general small countries have their better players playing in the bigger leagues. In an ideal world your Gilmours, McGinns and Tierneys would all still be playing up here, for example. I suppose we're aiming for the sweet spot whereby our bigger clubs up here are still able to provide a decent level of domestic football and be competitive in Europe etc... but recognising the better players will always move on. Fundamentally I think we've got that balance wrong for a number of decades now... to me the problem there is the massive gap in TV money, which allows fairly shit English teams to drain decent talent away from here and for those players to not fulfil their potential as a result.

So overall I think its trying to balance population (pool of players to choose from) vs development vs money. At one end of the spectrum you end up with very few decent players, a poor domestic league and a shit national team. At the other you have a couple of stronger domestic teams, but accept that most of your better players leave for leagues that will develop them further and hopefully benefit the national team.


That all said, fūck the SFA and SPFL. They do nothing for the good of the game up here.

Excellent post that is similar in the most part to my views and is fairly accurate. Particularly the last sentence. They don't have a clear what they are doing and have ran the game into the gutter
 
Not arguing about the idea of free health care but do you reckon we're healthier now than say thirty or forty years ago? It is being abused and mismanaged and underpins a lot of the health issues we have today. Too many don't accept personal responsibility for their well-being safe in the knowledge that someone else will.
And that links to the 'why are we not Croatia?' question, it's wur kulchir.
It's a kind of yes and no answer,yes as in we generally are living longer but a lot of that is down to medication,medical advances safer working practices and no because the population is more obese which imo is down to laziness,bad diet and over reliance on your motor car.
That is part of the reason why we don't produce the same number of quality players that we have done historically.
 
I think there is plenty talented youngsters in Scotland but the system is terrible. I watched my son play from schools to pro youth with Clyde and Hamilton. At school I dont expect to see coaching as such, but when he started to play youth football it was all about kick the sh1t out of the opposition and work rate. My son was pretty good and played fir a team that won everything. Logic would suggest they must have some decent players but only one got a trial for Thistle and got the gig and got fed up with it chucked football. The boy was very good. Every one of these boys chucked football. My son loved football and certainly didnt drink etc... and was fit as can be.

When I watched pro youth training there was little or no coaching, certainly no individual coaching of how a player should play his position. Nor was there any player development. A training session consisted of the normal physical exercises, the some shooting and then some dribbling around cones etc.... really basic and boring stuff. Noteably there was actually very litte playing football involved nor having fun. The lack of fun I felt was important as that is what makes people start to play. The love of playing football. It was that bit that caused my son to chuck football. He lived for football and was desperate to play football. Scotlands pro youth system destroyed that love of playing football.

As a side note he fell in love with boxing and regarded the fitness and dedication of Scotlands professional footballers as a joke compared to boxers. Make of that what you want.

Our system isnt fit for purpose. Obviously as all our teams except Rangers or the mhanks fail at the first hurdle almost every year in Europe and win little or nothing is Scotland. It is nothing to do with youngsters talent. There is plenty of talented youngsters playing football. Just go out to our parks and see the numbers. Loads of school and youth teams. I dont believe its anything to with alcohol either. Even if that is the case then surely making a better system and keeping the players happy and enjoying playing football would educate them to keep clean and on the right track?

The fix is probably that we need to get rid of the circle Scottish footballers getting jobs managing and coaching the next generation. That goes for the SFA people as well. They all come from a Scottish football industry that has failed for decades. We need new blood and it looks as if that for a few generations it needs to be for the most part non Scottish people. People from countries that have a winning culture and have a culture of developing players. If we dont do something radical nothing will change. In 50 years this conversation will be repeated over and over.
Summer football for kids would certainly help in Scotland.
I would also advocate it for England, but Scotland is clearly more in need of the better pitches and climate that summer can bring to bear.
People can rail and bitch and argue all they want, but football is a summer game and in Scotland, the shyte pitches take their toll in skill, enthusiasm and development.
 
I wouldn't say it's a major factor.

It's a whole mindset of Scottish football culture that needs changing.

From training, focus, nutrition ideas and step away from the need for physical confrontations in most matches. (I played boys club and then amateur for a while and the amount of near and full fighting was madness). All of that and the ridiculous idea the team captain has to be screaming into his team mates faces and hounding the referee of course. ;)

You can all but guarantee Modric would've been bombed out for being 'wee' by a host of Scottish coaches. When you think of that, it's laughable.
 
What free health care?
I have paid for that second-rate health care throughout my entire working life!
Have you just spent yours on the dole?
Yes mate,I have worked hard all my life and if I fall ill I know that unless I choose to go private I will receive free care from the NHS it's not perfect but at least it's not dependent on your bank balance.
If you are referring to the "I pay my tax it's not free" argument you could use the same argument about our police ,fire service and our armed forces amongst many other things that are publicly funded.
 
There is no desire in young guys anymore. If you look at the majority of top players, most of them have come from backgrounds that don’t exist in Scotland. These guys all see football as a way of getting out, in Scotland it’s just something you do if your good at it.
 
I think that a major problem is that there's no real plan. They have these big investigations every decade or so that promise root and branch changes, but nothing ever comes of them. As far as I can see, they just sit on a shelf gathering dust. When did you last see a newspaper follow up on which of Henry McLeish's recommendations were implemented and whether they were effective or not? The press would rather trot out lazy pieces on bigotry than do some proper work and hold the SFA to account.
 
Size of the country isn't it relative in new zealand smaller population but the amount of sports accessible is great from team sports to single sports. My daughter is going into 3rd year so she was picking her subjects PE wasn't compulsory it was 1 of her choices and then it was a choice of what type of PE but RMPS was compulsory getting kids active trying sports that generally they wouldn't try imo is more important than religions. The other problems are from early teens we'd rather be out with our mates ticking off all the stuff our mums and dad's told us not to do rather than getting up first thing in the morning to try
 
Yes mate,I have worked hard all my life and if I fall ill I know that unless I choose to go private I will receive free care from the NHS it's not perfect but at least it's not dependent on your bank balance.
If you are referring to the "I pay my tax it's not free" argument you could use the same argument about our police ,fire service and our armed forces amongst many other things that are publicly funded.
I don't understand your point about the police etc, I never said they were free.
People who work pay for every public service they receive.
Nothing is free.
It was you who mentioned something being free, which it is not.

I see that even when corrected, you still believe that the NHS is magically free. o_O
 
There's a big problem with talented young kids reaching the age of 16 or so and getting their heads turned by bevvy and drugs. You really need to take the best talent out of their home environments and potential bad influences. You take a 16 year old from Ayrshire for example and sign him as a youth player for a Scottish club and within a couple of years there's every chance he'll be acting Billy Bigbaws amongst the young team and getting pished every weekend while his football career goes down the shitter. If however you take that kid to Chelsea, manage them, nurture them and protect them, you can end up with potential stars like Gilmour.
 
I don't know about grass roots, what I do know is that the refs at top level in Scotland allow thuggery not seen anywhere else. Assuming it's the same at lower levels then thugs, and hence size. become very relevant to the detriment of actual skill.
 
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It's a kind of yes and no answer,yes as in we generally are living longer but a lot of that is down to medication,medical advances safer working practices and no because the population is more obese which imo is down to laziness,bad diet and over reliance on your motor car.
That is part of the reason why we don't produce the same number of quality players that we have done historically.
It accept it's a generalisation but that because it's generally true to say that tough upbringings breeds competitors. I don't mean today's 'tough', I mean not having a social safety net.
Our culture is rotten to the core and breeds self-entitlement, small-mindedness and neds.
 
I don't know about grass roots, what I do know is that the refs at top level on Scotland allow thuggery not seen anywhere else. Assuming it's the same at lower levels them thugs, and hence size. become very relevant to the detriment of actual skill.
Our refs are the biggest issue but they're only implementing the overall game plan.
 
I don't understand your point about the police etc, I never said they were free.
People who work pay for every public service they receive.
Nothing is free.
It was you who mentioned something being free, which it is not.

I see that even when corrected, you still believe that the NHS is magically free. o_O
Yes I get it that NHS is funded through general taxation, which I alluded to previously however my point is if you rock up to a hospital tomorrow and require medical attention you will receive it free of charge,no invoice or additional insurance is required.
I think you will find that is correct.
 
The population thing gets on my tits.

Football is a game of 11v11, not 5 million v 50 million. Iceland have a population not much more than that of Glasgow and they performed superbly at Euro 2016 and got to WC 2018. Scotland's highlight of 2016? Laughing at the English getting beat off Iceland - doing so from the outside looking in. Like laughing at someone getting a KB off an 6-pinter at 2.55am whilst your talking to the bouncer in the kebab shop.

Scotland's attitude stinks. Always the inferiority complex. The arrogance that Scotland should just qualify anyway. Iceland took stock of their situation, they invested in their game and within a generation reaped the rewards. Scotland remained in the dark ages.

Until there's a forward thinking leadership at the top of our game and all they way to the grass roots, we'll continue to qualify periodically at best.
 
Success for Scotland fans is England getting papped out of the Euros or World Cup. It’s up there with Scotland being crowned world champions, so every single major tournament is seen as a success for this country, whether we’re even there or not.
We have no ambition other than to see England getting gubbed.
 
Maybe a controversial view, but in scotland its far too 'easy' to make it as a professional footballer. Having so many clubs meaning there's a much larger safety net to drop down the leagues and not enough incentive to develop.

If we took a much more ruthless approach and cut the number of teams by half - only the best would survive and the demands on players to make it wod be greater. People say our culture of drinking drinks and young teams is an issue- but all countries, including England have that.
 
Not wanting to disagree with anyone’s points here , but I think Scotland produces plenty of footballers , & plenty of highly talented footballers into the bargain, getting the right platform for 16/21 year old players is something we don’t seem to do all that well , there are exceptions , but if the likes of Ajax sell a player , they bring his replacement from their youth set up .

I’d love Rangers to bring two players into the squad from youth every season & see how that works out .

We seem to have a decent crop just now , the blue heaven period a fair few got their chance with decent results, certainly for the players.
The challenge is that the infrastructure Ajax have in place means that their net is incredibly wide and there at a very young age.

If we can get a player through every 2-3 years we’re doing very, very well.
 
Yes I get it that NHS is funded through general taxation, which I alluded to previously however my point is if you rock up to a hospital tomorrow and require medical attention you will receive it free of charge,no invoice or additional insurance is required.
I think you will find that is correct.
Yes, because you pay into an insurance scheme you can get a payout when you need it.
So not free.
I think you will find that is correct.
 
Relying too much on people’s goodwill to volunteer to coach. I did the first two levels and I know they were basic but I thought they were a waste of my time. People out coaching kids that don’t really know what they are doing, it’s great of them to give up free time. The government need to step up and work better with the SFA. They need to find a way forward. How many kids are lost to the game through a lack of facilities and good quality coaching
 
Nothing to do with population size for me everything to do with the people in charge of the game up here. Not nearly enough is invested in grass roots football in Scotland.
 
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