Is Scotland’s population size really the reason?

I don't know how you'd even begin to quantify that but I have my doubts. I imagine there are fewer people playing in parks in casual games definitely but I would also guess more are actively involved in organized clubs with better equipment, more coaching and emphasis on tactics/skills. I'm more involved in tennis than football but I imagine with modern coaching and conditioning, even average players now (say 10th to 50th in the world) would be peerless if you were able to drop them back in time.
This is way off the mark regarding numbers playing organised football, miles off it. I played Scottish Amateur [15 seasons], at that time there were 9 divisions with our club having to travel as far afield as Oban or Campbelltown. I doubt there are a quarter of teams playing now. I have not even mentioned leagues such as West of Scotland, or Paisley and District, nor the situation in the rest of Scotland.
 
Population is a factor but it's something that should see a dip in quality of the squads for a period of time like the Dutch had recently gone through, not the issues Scotland have had in the past which is dreadful quality coming through year after year. It's getting better but Scotland are still so far behind most other passionate football countries.

When the majority of the clubs in your own top flight just punt the ball up and don't play with the ball on the ground what chance do you have to develop players? I'm sure these academies have players with some technical ability but the big lumps get preferred. You also can't send these players down the lower leagues on loan because the football is even worse down there. Turnbull and Gilmour are the only young midfielders anywhere near the Scotland squad that have the technical ability you want from the position and were developed in Scotland. We haven't developed a proper centre back in over a decade because they get away with murder up here and never have to learn how to properly defend, it's why a left back and a box to box midfielder are 2 of our 3 best options for a back three.

The culture might play a part in losing a few boys who could have done something had they stuck to it but it's not going to leave you with some of the pish Scotland have put out over the years. Let clubs like us and celtic put their colt teams through the league system so they can be developed under modern football systems, start having referees actually protect players and stop letting thugs get away with everything, keeping Scottish football in the backwater and let the smaller players who are actually good at football flourish and you'll see more talented young kids get chances and in turn start having a country that can regularly qualify for tournaments.
 
The size/population was always a ready made excuse by the Scottish football Authorities for the country’s failures in world football. Then when smaller emerging nations (in population and land mass) like Croatia, Belgium, Czech Republic started winning and getting into QF/SF of tournaments the excuse was laid at the clubs doors (mainly Rangers) for not developing our own talent

then the likes of Hutton, Adam, Ferguson, Shagger started to emerge and they were at times shunned by Scotland and/or vilified by the Tranny Army support,

the whole issue with Scottish Football starts and ends with the SFA. there are too many suits who know %^*& all about football and the game in general but do enjoy a good junket to warm climes and a nice filet mignon meal (or succulent lamb) on the SFA dime. This has been debated since time and memorial that the suits need to be removed from their positions and football men put in their place who can focus on developing our game and young players

Why aren’t guys from those famous Scottish teams of the late 70’s and early to mid 80’s in positions at the SFA to try and develop and nurture our game? I don’t expect things will change any time soon
 
This is way off the mark regarding numbers playing organised football, miles off it. I played Scottish Amateur [15 seasons], at that time there were 9 divisions with our club having to travel as far afield as Oban or Campbelltown. I doubt there are a quarter of teams playing now. I have not even mentioned leagues such as West of Scotland, or Paisley and District, nor the situation in the rest of Scotland.
I just found out recently that my town now has no amateur teams playing on a saturday afternoon. The population is bigger now than when there were at least 8 teams.

There's a bigger problem all round Plenty like football, but not enough to participate the way it used to be
 
As a nation who regards football as our national sport we haven’t done very well have we ? Weather doesn’t help but look at the Scandinavian or even Alpine countries and it’s not even their first choice of sport. Trouble is the likes of bully boy Scott Brown was seen as the example of highly rated footballers in Scotland. It’s all about skill in todays game.
 
It’s part of the reason but it isn’t the single reason.

It’s of no surprise that the consistently dominant nations have bigger populations:

Germany
France
Spain
Italy
Brazil
Argentina

Some small nations can have purple patches or ‘golden generations’ but population plays a significant factor.
OK, so we're about one tenth the size of most of those countries, yet we don't produce one tenth the number of world class players. Nowhere near it.
 
Population, lack of decent facilities, the sfa, spfl, the league, the lure of drink and drugs etc are all factors no doubt about it. I think one of the biggest factors has to be the point when a decent promising player gets to 16/17/18 years old they have to make a choice lots of people telling them they need give up and that you will never make it go get a job. What I am saying is there is no funding to keep the promising players playing unless you are lucky and end up at Rangers, them or some other professional club. there should some way of helping them. It’s the same problem with other sports you get to certain stage and have to give up.
 
imo it's the ludicrous allowances and choices made by match officials in Scotland.
About a decade ago, for some reason our match officials stopped being on the same wavelength as those in England.

Up until that time, a bad tackle in Scotland was punished the same way as was a bad tackle in England.
We've seen in the last ten years or so how appalling hacks and assaults and clear dives are treated by Scottish refs and linesmen.
I'm not saying that such things don't happen in England.
But they don't regularly happen at their top level, to the same degree as we see in Scottish top matches.

So ... good, skillful players are kicked about in Scotland until they can escape to another country's league.
Hackers and fairly talentless thugs rule the roost by bringing the entire level of the game down to a clogging match.

For some reason, this season gone, we saw refs actually protect skillful players to some degree, and thus we saw some remarkable skills from guys like Kent & Aribo, etc.

But until our refs decide to consistently and equitably apply the Rules of the game and bring the game back into "football" rather than "thugball", we'll never develop good players in our leagues.
Which means that there wil be less to shine here, then go abroad and flouriosh there.
Yep , a great starting point . Down all the levels too .
 
Can see it panning out the same as usual probably another goalless draw and bow out as Gallant losers
As for small populations what about Iceland?
What about Wales. 3 major finals appearances and got further each time than Scotland have ever managed and at last count a population of just over 3 million
 
What about the population in Wales.

Damn, i forgot their football association isn't a bunch of corrupt c***s who try to help only one club and f**k the rest of Scottish football.
 
Our population size has long been a comfort blanket for those who need an excuse, that we have no real control over, to cling to. If it were a real factor, why would, for example, the converse not be true that a very large population would bring more success?

The former USSR had more registered footballers than we actually had people in Scotland, but they didn't exactly set the sugar beets alight over the years.

Countries like Uruguay, Croatia, Denmark should be the blueprints for us. Even Belgium (11.5m) and The Netherlands (17m) show that good programs bear fruit. Time was, countries like Denmark and Finland had clubs that were the whipping boys of European competition; you'd have been disappointed if your team didn't reach double figures on aggregate against them . Even the Dutch, after a half decent start in their football history, struggled to make their mark post-war until the late 60's. But they all put their programs in place and started to reap the benefits.

An example in a different sport are the All Blacks. It's only recently NZ's population has just about hit the dizzying heights of 5m. Even when it was 3m, they simply went out and showed the world how rugby should be played. Granted, they have struggled now and again at the RWC - they regard only taking the trophy home three times as a major disappointment. Perhaps the number of Kiwi coaches working overseas is backfiring on them.

But I digress. TWENTY-EIGHT years ago, following our 5-0 demolition by Portugal, we had all sorts of inquiries and think-tanks about what was wrong with our "national game" (perhaps that mantle belongs to the egg-chasers now?) I know that the SFA tried to change things at grass roots (no laughing at the back), but they really haven't seen it through, plus these initiatives need to be backed up by local and national government.

I wish I knew what the answer was. Perhaps getting rid of the SFA or, at least, changing the personnel and the way it is run, would be a start.
 
No, in the 60s and 70s we produced genuinely world class players who were a match for anyone, however our coaching and preparation was horrendous, producing talent never used to be a problem, organising them into a football team was and always will be. The SFA have always been about self interest and not the good of the game.
 
Aye all that free health care is a nightmare.No political ideology is perfect but after 14 years of nationalist government we would be far better off with a strong Labour party.
What do we mean when we say free health care?
Is it people that are driving about in "free big fancy cars" because they know how to rip off the system?
Then then there's the famous money sticks!
Get a walking stick and see your benefits nearly doubled in some cases?
The hole system is rotten too the core.
On the Scots ....they are probably more true Scots living in the rest of Britain than there is in Bonny Scotland?
 
I don't know if the comparison with Uruguay or Croatia is fair. Those are the outliers. Teams like Slovakia, Norway, Sweden, Czech Republic, Austria, Serbia, Switzerland, Hungary and Finland are just as fair if you're looking at national levels of interest in recent years. It feels a bit like saying any nation with 3 million should be able to replicate the All Blacks.
 
Problematic relationship with food, alcohol and drugs.

A country with generally apathetic views about physical fitness and health (as any thread on here about cycle paths will tell you).

A county predisposed to and used to losing (glorious failure, etc).

Lack of quality coaching at every level.

Increasing cost in playing football (most boys playing football nowadays are generally middle class wee guys).

Closure of community facilities.

Parents not really bothered about getting their kids out playing football.

Our own failure to consistently provide decent quality Scottish players. I've no love for the national team but when the only Rangers Scottish player at the Euros is a 17 year old, we're doing something wrong (the last ten years or so notwithstanding).
 
Was the need to take the piss out of Bertie Vogts and sack him the wrong decision by the SFA?

We improved for a campaign under Walter Smith and Alex McLeish but it was short term.

I accept Vogts managed us to some awful results, but taking the time to change things overall may have been for a longer gain.
 
There's just a really toxic, negative, attitude when it comes to football in Scotland that seems almost designed to push people away.

Look how the English market the Premier League and then look at how even the smallest hint of controversy gets so much play in the Scottish media.

People still talk about a very minor altercation between McCoist and Lennon that happened a decade ago. Weren't the cops even involved in that?

They do everything they can to try and make football as unappealing as possible so it's no surprise that we find ourselves in the current situation.

The greatest moment in the last 30 or 40 years for our national team is "haha England thought they would win but they didnae hahaha". A match that the English didn't need to win as the point probably means they are through anyway. For SPFL supporters the best they've had is Rangers being sent down to the bottom and then moaning about the celebrations when we came back up.

It tells you all that needs to be said about the Scottish mentality.

Croatia will batter us and all 3 from our group will go on to the knockouts. Meanwhile we will celebrate that time we held England to a 0-0.
 
Console yourselves by considering Turkey, the largest nation in the competition with 85 million people and they've just been papped out without a point :)
 
Countries who would blooter us, with a population equal to, lesser than, or no more than 10% greater than Scotland's 5.45m.

Uruguay - 3.4m
Croatia - 4.1m
Norway - 5.4m
Denmark - 5.7m

Then we consider teams like world #1 Belgium who have 11m, or current holders Portugal who have 10m.

Population is a lot of utter shite. The problem is the attitude we have in this country and it starts in schools when the lads on the school team get free reign to be absolute arseholes. There is no incentive to be better professionally or personally.
We have a good record against the teams you say will blooter us so there is no evidence that they would.

Our record against Norway is won 9 drawn 6 , lost 3. Our record against Croatia is won 2 , drawn 3 , lost 0. Our record against Denmark is won 10 , lost 6 , drawn 0. Our record against Uruguay won 1 , drawn 1, lost 2.

Hope my stats stack up gained from a stat website but that’s not bad in my opinion.
 
Shipping our youngest and brightest players out to other leagues early doors seems to be paying dividends. I can't see the use or attraction of growing up in Scotland as a young footballer and landing in a club with their entire existence evolving around sell out games against the old firm.

Get noticed, get a move on and develop as a professional athlete.

Our product in this country is stale and counter productive.
 
A lot in my opinion is to do with the culture. Having lived in Croatia for 17 years, there are some stark differences to Scotland among the youth.

Sports that are mainly popular (successful) in Croatia are Football, Basketball, Handball, Water Polo. Young kids follow these sports and aspire to play at a national level.

Croatia does not have a pub culture like we do in Scotland. Yes, there are cafes and bars (you can drink alcohol anytime they are open), but your young folk will generally drink coffee, soft drinks mainly, unless it is a social occasion when they will then go on a bender :)

Average salary in Croatia is probably around 4,500-5,000 kuna a month (around £500). Making it in sport (like Modric, for example) allows the family a lifedtyle they could only dream off, so the kids are encouraged to excel.

There is a much healthier diet in Croatia (only recently has McDonalds, KFC, entered the market. Might be interested to see what the next generation health will be like!

Until recently kids did not have access to the 'toys' of the likes of Play Station, etc, so like us Scots in the 60's and 70's when we were out kicking a ball around or similar, thats what inspired to an extent the successful players they brought through the ranks.

But in reality what has made them head and shoulders above us is that they drink rakija at 7am with their coffee and cigarettes;)
 
We produced loads of talented players before the SFA started insisting on their mandatory coaching badges etc. The courses are nothing but a pathetic money making exercise and they couldn't care about whether they are successful or not. As long as the numbers keep adding up.

Change is needed but sadly qualifying for the Euro's has held back the clamber for change. Even though we only qualified because they increased the tournament from 16 to 24 teams - and we were the best of the fkn worst.
 
What do we mean when we say free health care?
Is it people that are driving about in "free big fancy cars" because they know how to rip off the system?
Then then there's the famous money sticks!
Get a walking stick and see your benefits nearly doubled in some cases?
The hole system is rotten too the core.
On the Scots ....they are probably more true Scots living in the rest of Britain than there is in Bonny Scotland?
You are addressing a completely different topic mate.All ime saying is if you need hospital care ie you have a heart attack or are knocked over by a bus ,you will be taken to hospital,given a bed and treated FOC.You won't need to put your hand in your pocket or have insurance.
People ripping off the system is a totally different thing.
 
I don't think that the, larger population = more success, argument really holds.

Some people tend to belittle Uruguay's 2 x WC wins because they were a long time ago (last in 1950).

But, if you look at the Copa America (equivalent of the current European Championships), Uruguay has 15-titles; Argentina has 14-titles; Brazil has 9-titles.

Consider also that Uruguay has a tiny population of >3 million, compared to its much larger neighbours, Argentina >45 million and Brazil >210 million.

Population and facilities aside, maybe Uruguay's enviable footballing record is more attributable to national pride and to its younger population actually being prepared to work their damned hardest to achieve success?

Uruguay has never thought itself "entitled" to success, but Uruguay has definitely "earned" its success.

Good, old fashioned, WASP values in a RC country.
 
You are addressing a completely different topic mate.All ime saying is if you need hospital care ie you have a heart attack or are knocked over by a bus ,you will be taken to hospital,given a bed and treated FOC.You won't need to put your hand in your pocket or have insurance.
People ripping off the system is a totally different thing.
Unfortunately my friend it all come out of the same pot?
Soon we will not have a pot to piss in?
 
In Largs the National Sports Centre has all weather pitches lying empty most of the time.

Kids teams get charged £60 to use one.

The facilities have already been paid for through taxation. Why do we have to pay again to use the National Sports Centre?

The name is a bit of an oxymoron.

:(
Always wound me up too.

Sport Scotland takes every grant going under the disguise of helping grass roots sport & youths in the community etc when the reality has always been locals get chased off empty facilities if not paying top dollar or when I was young got offered the ‘donkey pitch’ if were lucky & didn’t mind playing on a coo field!

Lack of facilities & lack of interest(partly to do with facility part) bigger factors in declining standards at national level than population for me.
 
More than anything else it's mentality. We always seem to fear the worst. We set up not to win, but simply not to lose.

It's a crazy attitude to have. That isn't how professional sport should be played. It's like setting up a business and saying "well, we can't expect ourselves to make a profit, but let's just try not to make a loss". What would be the point of that? If breaking even is your aim, why risk your capital in the first place?

You look at other nations of a similar size and they play football in the correct spirit. It's a game. The object is to win - so set up to win. Yes, you might lose. But so what? It's a game. No one dies if you lose a game. You just dust yourself off and look forward to the next match.

We have a great word we like to use in Scotland - "gallus". We all know what it means. It's about time we adopted a more gallus attitude when it comes to football. That's how you make progress, that's how you begin to punch above your weight until you reach a point where you're delivering consistent success, and so what was once considered "punching above your weight" actually becomes the norm, the expectation.

I don't want these Euros to be a blip. Win or lose tomorrow, qualification for major tournaments must be our expectation once again, not simply a pipe dream, or a "it'd be nice if it happened, but let's not get ideas above our station" kind of thing.

Shite weather, an unhealthy obsession with drink and drugs, childhood obesity etc - none of these problems are specific to Scotland. Plenty of nations of our size have to tackle these issues, and yet still get to more major tournaments than we do. The difference is that they don't whinge about it like we do, they roll up their sleeves and deal with it.

Culturally we always seem to be quite uncomfortable with the idea of being successful or feeling optimistic. And when you think about it, that's pretty tragic. It's almost like we view positivity as something to be ashamed of. Baffling, really.
 
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As a nation, and especially through the filter of nationalism, Scotland sees itself as a producer of world-changing people. Put aside the fact that most, if not all, of the world changers we celebrate were born after 1707.

Baird made the world’s first working television in Hastings, England.
Bell developed his telephone in USA and Canada.
Fleming discovered penicillin in Paddington, London.
Watson-Watt carried out the first successful radar experiments at Daventry in Northamptonshire.
Macadam developed his roadbuilding method while working for the Bristol Turnpike Trust.
Dunlop developed the first practical pneumatic tyre in the yard of his home in Belfast.
MacMasters was working on lighting for the London Underground when he is said to have had the idea for the electric toaster.
Holden developed his striking match in Reading.
And so on.

Maybe if we were more honest and humble about our past we could stop basking in the glory of things none of us played any part in, and open our eyes to the fact that achievement in any sphere requires more than Scottish birth and, most of all, hard work and application.
 
Lack of infrastructure, shite weather, poor quality of coaching, lifestyle choices and diet, more interest in video games etc
That pretty much sums it up. When I was growing up in the 90s there were plenty of “free” pitches (some were more free than others) but just about everywhere is being built upon and even the truly free pitches have been left in a poor state of repair. There is a wee pitch along from my mum’s house that wasn’t great but fine for a wee kick about and had 7 aside goals iirc. One of the goals is away and the other has been left to rust. It’s also filling up with weeds and I doubt it would cost much to remedy.
The cost of football camps. My mate’s mum was a headteacher in the north of Glasgow and refused to let either Rangers or Celtic advertise their summer schools things there on the basis of affordability.
Poor coaching and running of schools teams is a big issue. Even at levels above that. I had a friend who tired out for Kilmarnock and he said the players were poor but very fit and fast. He was reasonably fast but not the fittest. He said I would have walked into the team.
I think there is one thing missing and that is parents are more cautious about letting their kids out to play than they were in the 90s. The may not be directly playing football but being outside and running around is great for fitness. When we weren’t playing football we were out on our bikes, skates or running around in the woods.
 
Scotland has an inherent happy-just-to-be-at-the-party mentality when it comes to these tournaments, which makes us relatively easy prey for hungrier group-section opponents - as demonstrated by the likes of Costa Rica, Morocco and more recently the Czech Republic. When it comes to decisive games at this level, Scotland have always found a way not to get the required result - a pattern that I fully expect to continue v Croatia tomorrow.
 
Look at all the World Cup winners from the last 60 years and their populations. Of course population is a factor, but it's not the only reason.
 
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