the upsetter
Well-Known Member
Not quite sure why you've responded like this to a song about Rangers.
Is this the original Billy boys words ?
- Thread starter Newtown Bear
- Start date
Not quite sure why you've responded like this to a song about Rangers.
Prefer that sash line
bob1873
Well-Known Member
No those words are from an official Rangers Album from way back I’m sure my mother had or has it. It was sanitised lyrics because it was an official club released album. I’m fairly sure.
steve1873
Well-Known Member
They can and they have. And unless the club and/ or a fans group takes them to court then it will remain the case. And the club certainly ain't taking them to court over the issue!
Davie Weir
Well-Known Member
That’s a good song
DylanGer
Well-Known Member
Banned in all forms was the original decree.
Davie Weir
Well-Known Member
The Man U version is shite
Kampbell
Well-Known Member
You're literally saying that something that has been done, can't be done. I don't know how to debate they with you any further. I don't meant to be rude but you're arguing black is white and are either unwilling or unable to accept facts because it seems you don't want them to be correct or don't agree with them.
The rest of your post - that I never quoted is fair and I mostly agree with.
blue barney
Well-Known Member
As a kid I had a Rangers LP and those were the words on it.
LJ50
Well-Known Member
You’ve bookended some common sense with nonsense I’m afraid. Seriously, read the directive. I can’t say more to you than that.
If it doesn’t blow apart your delusions of fairness and justice then maybe you will fathom it when you’re watching a European game on the TV with the stands empty. Or maybe reality will only hit home when we’re banned.
No, because we cannot trust people not to sing the original words.
It’s done. Leave it in peace. It should never have been resurrected from when we killed it off in the noughties.
GarMckin
Well-Known Member
In the directive posted, on page 12 section 4) b., UEFA acknowledge that their position would not stand in a criminal court, but it is in keeping with Article 2 of UEFA statutes.
From the ruling:
4) b. “The defence was obviously not aware of the above-mentioned far-reaching UEFA definition of fair play. Sectarianism cannot be combated successfully if parts of the lyrics and the melody of strongly sectarian songs are tolerated for the simple reason that in order to tackle sectarianism, a song must be composed in a way that implies ill-will and malice. Indeed, this definition might be the right one for criminal prosecution, but it is not the one as understood by the fair play principle stipulated in Article 2 of the UEFA Statutes. In order to reach this general attitude of mind based on ethical principles, it is essential that any songs linked in any way to discrimination and sectarianism are prohibited on any football ground, irrespective of their wording. All these songs are widely known by their lyrics and melody and can thus easily be identified and combated. It is the defendant‟s responsibility to spread this ethos amongst its supporters.”
southsidebluenose
Well-Known Member
I understand what UEFA have said. That’s why I believe that the club need to seek clarification. The notion of banning a tune is preposterous. If nothing else, the we should look to safeguard ourselves against future sanction by defining the problem. If they respond like they did in 06 then the club should point out how vague this is and how a tune can’t be in breach of the Article...
Cooperation is fine. But we need to know what we are cooperating with! Surely....
LJ50
Well-Known Member
It’s not vague. It’s utterly explicit. It’s there black and white and in plain English.
Preposterous, yes. Vague not at all.
steve1873
Well-Known Member
Let's be clear here, the tune isn't banned. Other clubs can and do sing songs with different words.
It HAS been banned exclusively from being sung at our matches as any form of the song apparently draws an assocjation to an overtly sectarian attitude. So although you are singing words that may not be sectarian, you are thinking of sectarianism, and people who are offended by the sectarian version are still offended due to this association.
No I am not making that up!
It is ridiculous. It is unfair. But it is 100% fact. And it would probably take someone going to the ECHR as a way of showing this is actually discriminatory. But wouldn't hold my breath for that ever happening.
It HAS been banned exclusively from being sung at our matches as any form of the song apparently draws an assocjation to an overtly sectarian attitude. So although you are singing words that may not be sectarian, you are thinking of sectarianism, and people who are offended by the sectarian version are still offended due to this association.
No I am not making that up!
It is ridiculous. It is unfair. But it is 100% fact. And it would probably take someone going to the ECHR as a way of showing this is actually discriminatory. But wouldn't hold my breath for that ever happening.
LucyBlue
Well-Known Member
I don't need to console myself with cosmic justice, simply European Law. I've read what you've posted, have seen it before and it raises my eyebrows we never challenged its wording. Like you (I'm guessing), I consider myself a progressive Rangers fan, I don't do the add-ons and have no great desire to cling onto the BB when we have so many other songs.
That said, there is no legal way to ban a melody in the western world. "Marching through Georgia" is a longstanding, traditional tune.
It's sung over the globe, not only at football matches.
UEFA are not the be all arbitrators of modern fairness and justice, they've been beaten countless times on points of law. If we cut out the add-ons and see what they could do. I suspect, nothing, absolutely zero.
Mason Boyne
Well-Known Member
The tune is Marching Through Georgia, we have sang many versions to that tune.
southsidebluenose
Well-Known Member
This is what causes me an issue - without being prescriptive on “banned words”, we are eternally open to others complaining that our songs are sectarian and seeking to demonstrate that they can be identified as such within certain circles... surely the club can see the witch hunt that could follow?
southsidebluenose
Well-Known Member
This is my view.
I am in full agreement with you and applaud your efforts, as it is imperative people understand this. It is literally in black and white.
Those wanting Rangers to challenge the directive are deluding themselves as well. As if Rangers would ever actively seek for a version of the song to be deemed suitable by Uefa and run the risk of people singing the banned version.
It's a song, it's gone and everyone needs to move on.
deedle
Well-Known Member
Those are not the words to the original song.
The first mention of 'The Billy Boys' seems to have been in a report of the 1928 Scottish Cup Final. The writer referred to it as provocative/controversial or something along these lines, suggesting that it was identical or very similar to the version we know today.
It should be mentioned that a few years beforehand the IRA was active in Scotland. Training camps were set up and guns, ammunition and explosives sent to Ireland. In 1921 there was also an attempt to free an IRA man being driven to Duke Street prison, resulting in the death of a police inspector. '19th Century Terrorist' was a perfectly apt description of those involved.
The first mention of 'The Billy Boys' seems to have been in a report of the 1928 Scottish Cup Final. The writer referred to it as provocative/controversial or something along these lines, suggesting that it was identical or very similar to the version we know today.
It should be mentioned that a few years beforehand the IRA was active in Scotland. Training camps were set up and guns, ammunition and explosives sent to Ireland. In 1921 there was also an attempt to free an IRA man being driven to Duke Street prison, resulting in the death of a police inspector. '19th Century Terrorist' was a perfectly apt description of those involved.
I really don’t see what you think we stand to gain from picking a fight with UEFA over this. Especially when we’ve been singing it with bigoted lyrics all summer.
LJ50
Well-Known Member
No, they’re not. But they are the arbitrators of their own competitions. And we signup to abiding by it, not “European law”, when we enter the tournament.
Read the directive. Carefully. Even the bits you don’t like.
Mason Boyne
Well-Known Member
An interesting thought. What if we played Killie, Hearts, Man U or Tottenham in a Euro tie to name but a few, and their fans sang their version. How would yoofa decide who was singing it?
It is time though to let it go . Comply or die, that’s our stark choice.
It is time though to let it go . Comply or die, that’s our stark choice.
Kampbell
Well-Known Member
Every post that LJ50 has made, and Stevie 1873s latest post sum this up perfectly. I've nothing more to add.
We've had the exact wording of the uefa judgement quoted and broken down and the further explained in layman's terms and still some people can't accept or understand it.
Maybe the club should come out and be utterly explicit because as embarrassing as that would be, it seems like some people would benefit from it.
We've had the exact wording of the uefa judgement quoted and broken down and the further explained in layman's terms and still some people can't accept or understand it.
Maybe the club should come out and be utterly explicit because as embarrassing as that would be, it seems like some people would benefit from it.
LucyBlue
Well-Known Member
OK. Let's let the song go. No bother.
Then, let's agree we can be the only club that can't wear orange shirts as that offends.
Then let's get rid of the Sash as that offends.
Then let's get rid of "We are the people chants" as that offends.
Then, lets make a formal apology for our signing policy history as that offends.
Then, let's just call ourselves Sevco as us being Rangers offends.
I mean, where does it end? Take your pick.
coolatballet
Well-Known Member
I am not arguing, but if you are right then it would mean that a tune would become "sectarian" or offensive. So a particular grouping of notes to form a melody is offensive? If that melody is of cultural significance for whatever reason, then I think that there might be a "human rights" angle to be explored here.
Is "Billy Boys" not derived from some old American civil war rallying call?
I like the tune, and whereas, I would not advocate, continuing to sing or even whistle it at games. I really do think this idea should be challenged.
I will therefore ask, that if anyone has definitive proof that the tune, regardless of words, is not acceptable, then I personally will challenge this with SFA, EUFA, or any other "Authority".
southsidebluenose
Well-Known Member
I think you’re missing the bigger picture in what I'm saying here. I’m not some hard of thinking who wants to challenge UEFA based on a desire to continue with the status quo. I’m suggesting we need to clarify that which is deemed to cause offence. If that means challenging them on elements (such as Marching Through Georgia somehow being sectarian), then that’s what we should do. But the outcome should be that we have a clear and fair judgement which the club can explain to supporters - together with the ramifications for non adherence. Otherwise we stumble from situation to situation, interpretation to interpretation. That would be madness.
@LJ50 has posted it in this thread.
LJ50
Well-Known Member
Read the judgement. Specifically, the top of page 12 and slap bang in the middle of page 14.
Challenge it with whoever you like. But don’t tell anyone it’s OK to sing it at Ibrox. You may be progressive and happy to leave it behind, but you’re adding to the misinformation that lets people tell themselves “it’s fine, they’ll never be able to do anything”. They can. They have. They will.
LucyBlue
Well-Known Member
If you think something is unfair then it's worth fighting against. That is what I was brought up to believe.
GarMckin
Well-Known Member
I agree, part of the directive mentions the way the song is perceived by sections of Scottish society determines whether it is offensive. They could come after us for any song that relates to loyalist culture and isn’t directly about Rangers, based on the offence it causes to sections of society.
LJ50
Well-Known Member
I’m missing absolutely nothing. UEFA were explicit. Read the directive. The Club should be more vocal in reminding supporting of the details.
It doesn’t stop UEFA deciding more things should be banned in future, but instead of enabling people to cling onto TBB by fighting lost battles, can we please focus our energies on preparing for whatever they might come after next. That’s the big fucking picture.
big bear carluke
New Member
they can ban words that appear offensive but not the tune Other clubs use the tunes with different words... it would be discriminatory
to ban the tune others use
to ban the tune others use
Here’s another thing I was brought up to believe: when you’ve been caught doing something wrong, stop digging the hole and admit to it. Take responsibility and show leadership.
Trying to squirm out of it is incredibly unedifying to watch. We all know the song is wrong. So bin it.
Kampbell
Well-Known Member
The difference is that UEFA haven't instructed us to stop doing any of those things.
I'm really not having a go here but that's a nonsensical rant that has nothing to do with this particular subject.
For what it's worth, I agree with you that it's ludicrous they can deem a melody to be unacceptable but they have. It's been done. We've accepted it.
We can, of course, chose to not participate in their competition should be disagree with it but as we do, we simply have to accept what they decide. Or challenge it. And we haven't / won't be challenging it so there's only the option of accepting it left to us
Derry's Walls* should be our battlecry from now on, it really makes the hairs on your neck stand up when it's getting belted out.
*Original words, obviously
LJ50
Well-Known Member
Admirable. But please fight it in a way that doesn’t enable people to justify signing songs that will lead to the stadium being shut and us banned from European competition. You may be progressive and happy not to sing the songs, but by spreading misinformation that somehow we can wriggle out of this, you’re giving someone, somewhere justification to do so.
LucyBlue
Well-Known Member
LJ50
Well-Known Member
As I’ve said elsewhere, that’s absolutely what they’re coming after next. So what I, and others, are saying is can we put our energies into fighting that instead of fighting battle that are lost.
With sectarian language. That’s where it ends.
LucyBlue
Well-Known Member
Ok, I take your point on that.
steve1873
Well-Known Member
I don't know the song is wrong. I know one word is deemed offensive. But the song itself, minus that word isn't in itself "wrong".
That said, I do understand d the directive with regard that song, so it has to stop.
Doesn't make the song "wrong" though!
LucyBlue
Well-Known Member
Now that's where you are wrong.
It will not end on that.
Did you hear Michael Stewart today?
Kampbell
Well-Known Member
It ends with the stuff UEFA specifically instruct us not to do.
If they try to ban wearing orange then we can either challenge it, accept it or leave their competitions.
It's not hard to understand.
It's like trying to get in to a night club that bans wearing trainers.
But what if I really like wearing trainers? Think the night club - and this night club has a queue around the block - is going to change its rules for you?
So then you wear your shoes and then the next week the day no check shirts. What options do you have?
The analogy isn't great but I think it gets the point across.
Basically, If you want in you do what the %^*& you're told. Like it or not.
southsidebluenose
Well-Known Member
Surely the best way to prepare ourselves would be to use this opportunity to open the debate with UEFA and have them spell it out in certain and measurable terms?
This is where my concern lies re forthcoming challenge. Without pressing them for absolutes then we are open to interpretation. Why wouldn’t you want us to push back on this basis?
LucyBlue
Well-Known Member
Let me get this right?
If they ban us, as one club, from wearing Orange, you would accept it?
Banning a melody then a colour?!?
God help us.
