Is this the original Billy boys words ?

Read the judgement. Specifically, the top of page 12 and slap bang in the middle of page 14.

Challenge it with whoever you like. But don’t tell anyone it’s OK to sing it at Ibrox. You may be progressive and happy to leave it behind, but you’re adding to the misinformation that lets people tell themselves “it’s fine, they’ll never be able to do anything”. They can. They have. They will.

Just made a point of not advocating that it is either sung or whistled at matches. I am neither progressive nor happy. I am mature, educated and by nature a libertarian conservative.

I am not adding to any misinformation, I am merely pointing out that if you do not accept the judgement of one particular Authority, then you challenge it .

If we all meekly caved in, then perhaps a day will come that we could be arrested for singing or whistling a tune that someone deems offensive. To my mind that is closer to the "progressive" viewpoint than my stance.

Please do not misrepresent my views or my words in order to support your own opinions.
 
Surely the best way to prepare ourselves would be to use this opportunity to open the debate with UEFA and have them spell it out in certain and measurable terms
What opportunity? The opportunity was 13 years ago. We debated it. We lost.

The best way to prepare ourselves is not to treat a judgement (one we accepted) with contempt.
 
Let me get this right?

If they ban us, as one club, from wearing Orange, you would accept it?

Banning a melody then a colour?!?

God help us.

What's your definition of not accepting it? What's the plan mate?

Edit - the only way of not accepting it that I could see open to Rangers is leaving the competition. And I quite like being in Europe.

But if you can see another viable alternative that keeps us in Europe, doesn't damage our reputation or cost us financially then fucking sign me up.
 
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Now that's where you are wrong.

It will not end on that.

Did you hear Michael Stewart today?
Michael Stewart is a f*cking idiot who is roundly laughed at by everyone in Scottish football. The only place that even entertains his moronic opinions (therefore keeping him in business) are Rangers forums.

He has absolutely zero influence in UEFA. What he says is not relevant.
 
Just made a point of not advocate that it is either sung or whistled at matches. I am neither progressive nor happy. I am mature, educated and by nature a libertarian conservative.

I am not adding to any misinformation, I am merely pointing out that if you do not accept the judgement of one particular Authority, then you challenge it .

If we all meekly caved in, then perhaps a day will come that we could be arrested for singing or whistling a tune that someone deems offensive. To my mind that is closer to the "progressive" viewpoint than my stance.

Please do not misrepresent my views or my words in order to support your own opinions.
Yes, you are. I misrepresented nothing.

You’re saying they can’t enforce this, that’s demonstrably untrue. So please don’t, because someone less “educated” than you will read it and think “nah, they can’t ban us from singing a tune” and they absolutely can. And did. “We just need to change one word and it’s fine”. We can’t and it’s not.

If you say otherwise, then it’s misinformation. That’s not an “opinion”. It’s a fact.
 
What's your definition of not accepting it? What's the plan mate?


Ok.

Club make a statement saying the add-ons are not allowed and will result in banning.

Some continue, club makes an example of culprits. Publishes season tickets revoked.

FARE continue to report club on BB singing and UEFA take further sanctions.

Club contests that melody is not illegal and shows example of those dealt with using wrong lyrics.

If Uefa continue melody is illegal, go to European law, it can't be upheld. Uefa would never do this.

Same if Orange ban comes into place which will only do so if we lie down to melody ban.

Simple really.
 
Ok.

Club make a statement saying the add-ons are not allowed and will result in banning.

Some continue, club makes an example of culprits. Publishes season tickets revoked.

FARE continue to report club on BB singing and UEFA take further sanctions.

Club contests that melody is not illegal and shows example of those dealt with using wrong lyrics.

If Uefa continue melody is illegal, go to European law, it can't be upheld. Uefa would never do this.


Same if Orange ban comes into place which will only do so if we lie down to melody ban.

Simple really.
I implore you, please read the judgement.

The club did argue that. And lost.

The club also signed a document agreeing to abide by judgement of the competent UEFA disciplinary bodies. We’ve signed that document (2019 version, at least) this year. The ECHR is not an option.
 
Ok.

Club make a statement saying the add-ons are not allowed and will result in banning.

Some continue, club makes an example of culprits. Publishes season tickets revoked.

FARE continue to report club on BB singing and UEFA take further sanctions.

Club contests that melody is not illegal and shows example of those dealt with using wrong lyrics.

If Uefa continue melody is illegal, go to European law, it can't be upheld. Uefa would never do this.

Same if Orange ban comes into place which will only do so if we lie down to melody ban.

Simple really.

And in the years that court proceedings take to settle we're banned from the competition and it costs us a fortune in legal fees. Hard pass for me.

I'm not a lawyer but we're not talking about European law here either, it's UEFAs rules that we would be challenging.
 
Can’t beleive they can ban the tune.
Are they going to fine Man Utd when there fans sing it?

Surely I’d would look better on us if they seen we changed the offending words.
It’s banned. They’ll close the ground. What would look good about that?
 
how @LJ50 post has not been highlighted further in this thread is strange...

I hope EVERYONE reads and understands this, it should be shared beyond this forum..

I really don’t.

But it is really, really fucking important that people understand this. We don’t have to like it. But we have to accept it or it’ll be empty Ibrox, followed by no Europe, followed by more years in the wilderness as a result of the financial and reputational damage it will do to us. Anyone who thinks we attract Gerrard as our manger and retain players like Morelos when we have no money and no European football to offer them is utterly delusional.

After everything we’ve been through, I can’t face that.
 
What opportunity? The opportunity was 13 years ago. We debated it. We lost.

The best way to prepare ourselves is not to treat a judgement (one we accepted) with contempt.

An opportunity like the one where we have just been sanctioned by said organised for singing sectarian songs, perhaps?

I understand completely what you’re trying to do - if people listen to you then we shouldn’t fall foul of another punishment.

I think in reality there are a couple of things required. First and foremost, fans absolutely cannot sing TBB or any sectarian songs or add ons nor should they try and sing the tune with alternate lyrics at this time. But the club also need to use this week as a stimulus to engage with UEFA on the point again - outcoMe of that discussion needs to be communicated with the fans.
 
UEFA cannot ban a tune for crying out loud! Use some form of autonomy and think about that for the shortest of seconds... it’s ludicrous and couldn’t be upheld!

Look, I don’t see a place at the football for these words or add ons. Times have changed and society’s has moved on for the better. Most of us all now come from mixed backgrounds, families, friend circles, etc. We should drop it. But in my view the club need to define the offending words (as identified by UEFA) and clearly state that ongoing use will lead to continued sanctions on the club.

For what it’s worth - and I digress for a moment - this is why I believe the majority of Rangers fans don’t use the F word to mean Catholic. It quite clearly is used it interchangeably to mean “Celtic fans”. For that reason, dropping any reference to the F word should be easy...

Dropping “tunes” however is moronic without seeking clarification. Amongst other things it allows us to put it all to bed once and for all without confusions.
There isn’t any confusion in that document.
 
Surely the best way to prepare ourselves would be to use this opportunity to open the debate with UEFA and have them spell it out in certain and measurable terms?



This is where my concern lies re forthcoming challenge. Without pressing them for absolutes then we are open to interpretation. Why wouldn’t you want us to push back on this basis?

I didn’t say I wouldn’t want the Club to pushback, but I don’t think there is any room to. We tried to push back in 2006 and were overruled. UEFA don’t want religious or political songs in their competitions, it is pretty hard to argue that any of our traditional songs don’t fall into these categories, so I think it would be the same outcome if they came after Derry’s Walls or The Sash. For me, the biggest issue is the lack of parity with the songs the scum sing, which also breach their Articles but go unpunished. If UEFA set the rules this way, we’ve not really got a leg to stand on arguing back, but we should certainly be asking why we are the only Scottish team being targeted.
 
It really is quite outrageous that the paedo bastards are so scared by the effect of the hello hello anthem on their shite team that they've had their administrator friends in UEFA ban us from even whistling the tune.
 
I implore you, please read the judgement.

The club did argue that. And lost.

The club also signed a document agreeing to abide by judgement of the competent UEFA disciplinary bodies. We’ve signed that document (2019 version, at least) this year. The ECHR is not an option.

The club argued at a UEFA level and lost.

They were hardly going to win at a UEFA level and win against a UEFA decision were they?

I know what you are saying....UEFA UEFA UEFA. We must not sing the BB I get that.

What I am saying is that it is not enforceable above them.

Ask a guy named Bosman what he thought of FIFA/UEFA rules and how he did taking it beyond them.
 
Yes, you are. I misrepresented nothing.

You’re saying they can’t enforce this, that’s demonstrably untrue. So please don’t, because someone less “educated” than you will read it and think “nah, they can’t ban us from singing a tune” and they absolutely can. And did. “We just need to change one word and it’s fine”. We can’t and it’s not.

If you say otherwise, then it’s misinformation. That’s not an “opinion”. It’s a fact.

You are beginning to come across as being a bit superior without the nous to back it up. You continue to misrepresent the contents of the posts of others.

You might have a problem with the written word, so I ask you to tell me where you read in my post, "they can't enforce it"?

Did I suggest , "changing one word"?

Unfortunately, you are not the go to guy for interpretations of UEFA decisions, so please desist in your attempts to present yourself as such.
 
The club argued at a UEFA level and lost.

They were hardly going to win at a UEFA level and win against a UEFA decision were they?

I know what you are saying....UEFA UEFA UEFA. We must not sing the BB I get that.

What I am saying is that it is not enforceable above them.

Ask a guy named Bosman what he thought of FIFA/UEFA rules and how he did taking it beyond them.
Or Webster after him...
 
I didn’t say I wouldn’t want the Club to pushback, but I don’t think there is any room to. We tried to push back in 2006 and were overruled. UEFA don’t want religious or political songs in their competitions, it is pretty hard to argue that any of our traditional songs don’t fall into these categories, so I think it would be the same outcome if they came after Derry’s Walls or The Sash. For me, the biggest issue is the lack of parity with the songs the scum sing, which also breach their Articles but go unpunished. If UEFA set the rules this way, we’ve not really got a leg to stand on arguing back, but we should certainly be asking why we are the only Scottish team being targeted.

Sorry mate - I was quoting your comment in a response to LJ. Wasn’t suggesting you were advocating for no challenge.
 
You are beginning to come across as being a bit superior without the nous to back it up. You continue to misrepresent the contents of the posts of others.

You might have a problem with the written word, so I ask you to tell me where you read in my post, "they can't enforce it"?

Did I suggest , "changing one word"?

Unfortunately, you are not the go to guy for interpretations of UEFA decisions, so please desist in your attempts to present yourself as such.
You said the position with regards the song was open to “challenge”. It’s not. I’m not misrepresenting anything; I am suggesting that, for the good of the club, you keep that thought to yourself.

If you think that’s me coming across as superior, that’s your issue. Your judgement of my “nous” matters not one bit to me. The judgement itself doesn’t require a great deal of nous to interpret in any event.
 
and that Bosman ruling took how long - 5 years...

if anyone wants to challenge the Uefa ruling through the courts then by all means have at it...

There's a few posters on here who I'm sure will join the lawsuit...



The club argued at a UEFA level and lost.

They were hardly going to win at a UEFA level and win against a UEFA decision were they?

I know what you are saying....UEFA UEFA UEFA. We must not sing the BB I get that.

What I am saying is that it is not enforceable above them.

Ask a guy named Bosman what he thought of FIFA/UEFA rules and how he did taking it beyond them.
 
You said the position with regards the song was open to “challenge”. It’s not. I’m not misrepresenting anything; I am suggesting that, for the good of the club, you keep that thought to yourself.

If you think that’s me coming across as superior, that’s your issue. Your judgement of my “nous” matters not one bit to me. The judgement itself doesn’t require a great deal of nous to interpret in any event.

Of course it is open to challenge. There are higher Authorities than UEFA.

I have given you two examples where you misrepresented my earlier posts and you have either chosen not to respond or you are again having problems with comprehending the written word.

It goes against the grain for me to challenge someone on a forum in this manner, but I feel that you have set yourself up for it with the tone and content of your posts.
 
You said the position with regards the song was open to “challenge”. It’s not. I’m not misrepresenting anything; I am suggesting that, for the good of the club, you keep that thought to yourself.

If you think that’s me coming across as superior, that’s your issue. Your judgement of my “nous” matters not one bit to me. The judgement itself doesn’t require a great deal of nous to interpret in any event.

I have to disagree on your “for the good of the club” comment.

By all means discourage people from continuing to sing the songs.

But “the good of the club” for me (and presumably for other fans/supporters/ST holders) would be better served by engaging UEFA on the matter and setting out our position.

Taking what is handed out without any challenge where appropriate (and I don’t think any of us disagree that the notion of interpretation within the 06 judgement is dangerous) serves nobody.
 
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Of course it is open to challenge. There are higher Authorities than UEFA.

I have given you two examples where you misrepresented my earlier posts and you have either chosen not to respond or you are again having problems with comprehending the written word.

It goes against the grain for me to challenge someone on a forum in this manner, but I feel that you have set yourself up for it with the tone and content of your posts.
No you didn't. Just stating that I misrepresented you isn't an example of anything.

I'll leave it at this:
I will therefore ask, that if anyone has definitive proof that the tune, regardless of words, is not acceptable, then I personally will challenge this with SFA, EUFA, or any other "Authority".
I provided the written proof, and others have highlighted the most relevant sections. You have what you asked for. I look forward to you making good on your commitment to challenge it with the relevant authority. Let us know how you get on.
 
I have to disagree on your “for the good of the club” comment.

By all means discourage people from continuing to sing the songs.

But “the good of the club” for me (and presumably for other fans/supporters/ST holders) would be better served by engaging UEFA of the matter and setting out our position.

Taking what is handed out without any challenge where appropriate (and I don’t think any of us disagree that the notion of interpretation within the 06 judgement is dangerous) serves nobody.
I genuinely am with you on the point of engaging with UEFA. I've been saying as much on several threads in the past 36 hours. My point is that TBB is simply not a topic we can engage them on. The matter is closed as far as UEFA are concerned and as far as the rules of their competitions go.

We MUST engage them in order to protect everything we have left. But on this, there isn't any engagement to be had. Yes, "for the good of the club" we need to avoid allowing anyone to labour under the misapprehension that TBB can be sung, if only we change a word here or there. I'm not suggesting you are overtly saying that, but any suggestion that it's a debate that is still open will be interpreted by someone as a green light to sing it.
 
I certainly will look into challenging this but I won't report back to you as you would have difficulty in understanding what I was communicating to you.

As I previously stated, I gave you two clear examples where you had misrepresented my post. If the best you can come back with is, "Just stating that I misrepresented you isn't an example of anything", then you might just be a bit over tired and ready for your bed.
 
Michael Stewart is a f*cking idiot who is roundly laughed at by everyone in Scottish football. The only place that even entertains his moronic opinions (therefore keeping him in business) are Rangers forums.

He has absolutely zero influence in UEFA. What he says is not relevant.

I don't disagree he is a moron, or that he has any influence within UEFA. However to disregard him and the propaganda he spews is very, very dangerous.

He might not have any influence with UEFA. He is however in the public eye and I'm afraid I don't know for certain whether or not he may have friends and people in positions of power that DO have influence on UEFA.

He is an enemy and as such, should be considered a threat.
 
No you didn't. Just stating that I misrepresented you isn't an example of anything.

I'll leave it at this:

I provided the written proof, and others have highlighted the most relevant sections. You have what you asked for. I look forward to you making good on your commitment to challenge it with the relevant authority. Let us know how you get on.

I might be reading it too literally (or it might be the ambiguity that I’ve been badgering on about) but does the 2006 judgement not refer to the combination of the words and the melody which culminate in the sectarian and discriminatory behaviour... hence why the tune is permitted when used by other clubs?

“The opening words “Hello, hello, we are the Billy Boys”, as well as the melody, are sufficient to make an association with an attitude that is strongly sectarian and thus discriminatory.”
 
In the directive posted, on page 12 section 4) b., UEFA acknowledge that their position would not stand in a criminal court, but it is in keeping with Article 2 of UEFA statutes.

From the ruling:

4) b. “The defence was obviously not aware of the above-mentioned far-reaching UEFA definition of fair play. Sectarianism cannot be combated successfully if parts of the lyrics and the melody of strongly sectarian songs are tolerated for the simple reason that in order to tackle sectarianism, a song must be composed in a way that implies ill-will and malice. Indeed, this definition might be the right one for criminal prosecution, but it is not the one as understood by the fair play principle stipulated in Article 2 of the UEFA Statutes. In order to reach this general attitude of mind based on ethical principles, it is essential that any songs linked in any way to discrimination and sectarianism are prohibited on any football ground, irrespective of their wording. All these songs are widely known by their lyrics and melody and can thus easily be identified and combated. It is the defendant‟s responsibility to spread this ethos amongst its supporters.”

Can you post the link to the ruling - would be useful.
 
A goal! A goal!
We’re ready to acclaim,
A goal! A goal!
To win another game,
We’re followers of Rangers,
Our hearts are strong and true,
We are the people who cheer the boys in blue.

My recollection is that these are the original words
Hello hello we are the Billy Boys, Hello Hello you,ll know us by our noise
We follow Glasgow Rangers , were loyal and were true
We are the people who cheer the boys in Blue
 
Hello hello we are the Billy Boys, Hello Hello you,ll know us by our noise
We follow Glasgow Rangers , were loyal and were true
We are the people who cheer the boys in Blue

No point tweaking the lyrics, they’ll just claim we’re still singing it.
It has to go, period
 
It’s 15 pages. Our acknowledgment they we have to abide by whatever judgements they hand down is at the top of page 10. The reference to the melody is at the top of page 12, the explicit prescribing of the song “in any form” is on page 14.

http://www.linfieldfc.com/pdfs/8393_rangers_vs_uefa.pdf
The lengths that that club has had to sign up to should be shouted loudly.

Rangers silence on all of this is becoming an issue.
 
I have to disagree on your “for the good of the club” comment.

By all means discourage people from continuing to sing the songs.

But “the good of the club” for me (and presumably for other fans/supporters/ST holders) would be better served by engaging UEFA on the matter and setting out our position.

Taking what is handed out without any challenge where appropriate (and I don’t think any of us disagree that the notion of interpretation within the 06 judgement is dangerous) serves nobody.

The club waived its right of appeal.
 
The club waived its right of appeal.

Interesting. Presumably that only applies in regards to the ‘06 punishment and not the current sanctions?

From reading the judgement, it seems that the club was wholly unprepared for the arguments made by the appellants in ‘06 and believed they would get off on the basis that UEFA didn’t have jurisdiction on the matter.
 
On this fine piece of vinyl

R-2755165-1439145853-8814-jpeg.jpg
Still got that album. You can probably be arrested for owning it these days.
 
In the directive posted, on page 12 section 4) b., UEFA acknowledge that their position would not stand in a criminal court, but it is in keeping with Article 2 of UEFA statutes.

From the ruling:

4) b. “The defence was obviously not aware of the above-mentioned far-reaching UEFA definition of fair play. Sectarianism cannot be combated successfully if parts of the lyrics and the melody of strongly sectarian songs are tolerated for the simple reason that in order to tackle sectarianism, a song must be composed in a way that implies ill-will and malice. Indeed, this definition might be the right one for criminal prosecution, but it is not the one as understood by the fair play principle stipulated in Article 2 of the UEFA Statutes. In order to reach this general attitude of mind based on ethical principles, it is essential that any songs linked in any way to discrimination and sectarianism are prohibited on any football ground, irrespective of their wording. All these songs are widely known by their lyrics and melody and can thus easily be identified and combated. It is the defendant‟s responsibility to spread this ethos amongst its supporters.”
So what about " Soon there 'll be NO PROTESTANTS at all " ; Just asking ?
 
No point tweaking the lyrics, they’ll just claim we’re still singing it.
It has to go, period
So when they say the same about the next song / chant - We'll just accept that too ....?
Where the f-ck does it end .........?
And we ALL know the answer to that .......
 
So what about " Soon there 'll be NO PROTESTANTS at all " ; Just asking ?

That’s the problem here, I’ve no issue with UEFA not wanting religious or political songs in their competitions, but they continue to allow them to sing about a terrorist group without increase in punishment. If they’ve sung that no Protestants song in Europe, they should have faced an automatic partial closure like we have and the song banned.
 
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We cannot sing it in any form. Any attempt to change the words will inevitably end up in people using the original words and getting us in trouble.

It’s finished. Let it go.

Pathetic that a tremendous refrain of musical notes is “banned” - by who ? The music police ?

Sing the tune but not the F word - all else is bullshit.
 
That’s the problem here, I’ve no issue with UEFA not wanting religious or political songs in their competitions, but they continue to allow them to sign about a terrorist group without increase in punishment. If they’ve sung that no Protestants song in Europe, they should have faced an automatic partial closure like we have and the song banned.
Exactly - WE all know the score ; But , WHY / HOW are they getting away with it ...?
Why has the club not defended itself better ?
If our forefathers had acted like this - We'd all be f-nians by now ....
 
To my mind the problem is made up of various issues

1. FARE are sneaky bastards and out to get us, any half chance they get

2. Some of our songs and/or words used in them have been banned by UEFA

3. There seems to be some confusion, even on here between sensible supporters and with easy access to the document, about what is actually banned

4. These songs are freely sung in other establishments by our supporters - many of whom will be oblivious to the fact that they are actually banned at Ibrox

My information above may even be incorrect!

So one thing we can all agree on is that there is confusion. An easy way to solve this is by communicating with the fans effectively. I would suggest a short video message on the jumbo screens prior to each match, along with a message on the billboards at set times during each match?

Self policing as well - if someone starts to sign a banned song, then a gentle tap on the shoulder just reminding the person that the song is banned. No shouting and bawling and trying to cause a fight, just a sensible reminder and of the implications to the club.
 
We cannot sing it in any form. Any attempt to change the words will inevitably end up in people using the original words and getting us in trouble.

It’s finished. Let it go.
Never finished I'll still sing it outside Ibrox will never be a song a forget
 
So when they say the same about the next song / chant - We'll just accept that too ....?
Where the f-ck does it end .........?
And we ALL know the answer to that .......
What does NOT accepting it look like to you?
How are you planning to fight it?
 
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