Junior teams in the premier divisions a decade from now?

Scotstounbluenose

Well-Known Member
I don't follow any of the junior teams as such, but the success of both Talbot and the Bankies has got me wondering what teams we will see in and what teams we will see demoted out the division system.

Folk who are more clued up will have a better idea but could we potentially see a junior team reach the premier League of championship within the next 10 years.
 
Not for me. There are some very good sides, which I have seen for myself at very close quarters, but eventually they will hit a ceiling around about League 1.

Getting through League 2, a bit like Kelty, should be well within a club like Talbot's grasp and they would he my favourite to do anything like that, along with Clydebank, as they are sustainable, "proper" clubs.
 
The usual suspects like Talbot, Clydebank, Darvel and Pollok have the infrastructure in place or planning for it.

Darvel budget is off the scale for this level but tbh didn't look any great shakes last night v Brechin.
 
I very much doubt it, to be honest

Talbot, and others, have shown we can compete in one off cup games. No way would we be beating Ayr, cove and Hamilton on a regular basis.

Third tier would be about it, I think. And probably yo-yoing between that and the tier below.
 
I don't follow any of the junior teams as such, but the success of both Talbot and the Bankies has got me wondering what teams we will see in and what teams we will see demoted out the division system.

Folk who are more clued up will have a better idea but could we potentially see a junior team reach the premier League of championship within the next 10 years.
No chance lucky if any survive league one.
 
I very much doubt it, to be honest

Talbot, and others, have shown we can compete in one off cup games. No way would we be beating Ayr, cove and Hamilton on a regular basis.

Third tier would be about it, I think. And probably yo-yoing between that and the tier below.
Teams be lucky to get out the WOSFL in 10 years time given the hoops to jump through just to get into the Lowland League.
 
Of course it could happen - look at Gretna. If somebody throws money at it then it's probably one of the easier setups to climb the leagues without too many roadbumps.

I suppose if you were throwing money about though you probably wouldn't start with a junior team in the first place.
 
Mentioned in another thread I could see EK/Bankies replacing some of the dregs of the top 4 leagues.

However, these ambitious clubs will only stay ambitious for so long and I’m not sure it’ll be long enough them to fulfil them.
 
Would be good to see it, but unfortunately such a negative set up is going to eventually discourage progression and investment.

League set up needs looked at entirely as a whole.
 
Mentioned in another thread I could see EK/Bankies replacing some of the dregs of the top 4 leagues.

However, these ambitious clubs will only stay ambitious for so long and I’m not sure it’ll be long enough them to fulfil them.

I watch the WOSL weekly I don’t know how you can see Bankies replacing these teams before Talbot, Darvel even a lot of money being thrown about in the league below with St Cadocs who have big ambitions.

I can see Talbot going up a league or 2 but no further tucker has a great team but an ageing team Darvel would be the only lower league team at this moment in time I could see making it right up the pyramid and into the championship.

I can’t see Bankies getting promotion before the likes of Darvel, Pollock even Kilwinning after Talbot go up this season that again is just my opinion.
 
I watch the WOSL weekly I don’t know how you can see Bankies replacing these teams before Talbot, Darvel even a lot of money being thrown about in the league below with St Cadocs who have big ambitions.

I can see Talbot going up a league or 2 but no further tucker has a great team but an ageing team Darvel would be the only lower league team at this moment in time I could see making it right up the pyramid and into the championship.

I can’t see Bankies getting promotion before the likes of Darvel, Pollock even Kilwinning after Talbot go up this season that again is just my opinion.
I just used Bankies as a general example mate haha, in another thread I’ve referred to Darvel/St Caddocs as well.
 
Just have to look at Livi, who were Meadowbank, who were Ferranti a works team. Admittedly that was 40 years ago and I don't remember how / why they were admitted into the SL
 
Not so sure some of the teams don’t have a ground or are sharing a glorified sports centre , and others have sugar daddies who will get fed up , as for crowds all very well for a “ big “ cup tie then 200 for a league game if lucky not sustainable
 
Just have to look at Livi, who were Meadowbank, who were Ferranti a works team. Admittedly that was 40 years ago and I don't remember how / why they were admitted into the SL
I think I remember reading they got third Lanarks place
 
These teams have the best part time players compared to rubbish full time pros.

To get to the top divisions they will sway away from part timers and at that stage the balance levels out. League 1 limit for most
 
These teams have the best part time players compared to rubbish full time pros.

To get to the top divisions they will sway away from part timers and at that stage the balance levels out. League 1 limit for most
Championship is definitely achievable , look at what Dick Campbell has done with Arbroath and previously Brechin with part time clubs .
 
Biggest issue has to be what crowds these teams can achieve as they climb the leagues. Can see a few teams getting up to 1,000, maybe 2,000 fans most weeks but it would take something radical to get that up to even 5,000 or 6,000 to become sustainable at the top end. And that’s if your ground can hold as much. Also not sure the existing fan bases would be willing to pay top flight ticket prices.
 
Just have to look at Livi, who were Meadowbank, who were Ferranti a works team. Admittedly that was 40 years ago and I don't remember how / why they were admitted into the SL
They were admitted in a ridiculous vote because clubs in the south of the country couldn't be bothered driving up north for games. They didn't even have their own ground. Livi have dreadful crowds now because it's a fake club with no tradition.
 
Junior teams that have competed at the top of that level and have a winning mentality will replace small town teams that have been quite happy to exist in the lower leagues, hovering between leagues 1 and 2. Teams like Talbot, Pollok, Bonnyrigg will replace the likes of Elgin, Forfar and Albion Rovers. It will take a while unless promotion/relegation between each division is sorted out properly. I think the top Junior sides will find their level as league 1.
 
There are a few sides who could possibly move from the non-league pyramid system up to League 2. Cowdenbeath may well be replaced by Bonnyrigg. Beyond that you could potentially argue that Talbot, Pollok and Clydebank are the most likely teams to move up to the Lowland League and then to have a decent crack at making League Two.

Probably their limit though. At a push then you might see Pollok making League 1 because of their potential fanbase.
 
Which isnt sustainable. You can't rely on somebody throwing money at a club forever. Thats the way for a team to become the next Gretna.

They are nothing like Gretna. Darvel's wage bill is covered by income they generate. They aren't paying the players' wages out of brown envelopes like was happening at Gretna.
 
Maybe the likes of Kelty Hearts who are already in League 2 - Bonnyrigg Rose in the Lowland League at a push - could make it to the Championship within ten years but the Premiership would be a step too far for them I think.

Teams of that size simply don’t have the fanbase to support teams in the top division.

The Premiership is really made of up 5 teams who are near or near about guaranteed to be in that division every year (Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen) and the rest either yo-yo between the Prem/Championship (Ross County/Inverness) or go in cycles of staying up (Hamilton’s 5/6 year stay).

The bigger non-league sides will be slow to move up the pyramid because of the prohibitive set up of the League 2 Relegation Play-off. Currently the winners of the Highland/Lowland leagues play each other to determine who plays the 10th placed League 2 team in a 2 leg play off. Until automatic relegation places are in place then the pyramid will continue to bottleneck at the top of Tier 5.

But theoretically, I’d say the likeliest teams to be in the SPFL within 10 years would be Bonnyrigg (T5), Fraserburgh (T5) and Talbot (T6). I’ve not even began to consider the ambitious, well backed teams like Tranent and Linlithgow Rose (both T6) in the East.
 
Biggest issue has to be what crowds these teams can achieve as they climb the leagues. Can see a few teams getting up to 1,000, maybe 2,000 fans most weeks but it would take something radical to get that up to even 5,000 or 6,000 to become sustainable at the top end. And that’s if your ground can hold as much. Also not sure the existing fan bases would be willing to pay top flight ticket prices.
Admission prices would go up significantly though the higher they climb. Some team get good crowds at the moment, I do wonder if that would continue.
 
Of course it could happen - look at Gretna. If somebody throws money at it then it's probably one of the easier setups to climb the leagues without too many roadbumps.

I suppose if you were throwing money about though you probably wouldn't start with a junior team in the first place.
About 12 years ago (?) Irvine Meadow had someone throwing money at them, and could easily have applied to become senior. Not sure why they didn't. But crowds of 300 or more would have increased, and certainly did increase when Pollok or Talbot came to town.

But then the money stopped. They do an amazing about of fundraising etc to stay afloat or invest in stadium.

I agree with you. I think someone would invest in a lower league team and go from there.
 
Would Junior clubs even want that? There's a old fashioned romance about Junior football and it would be sad to see that end.

I still thoroughly enjoy going to see Cambuslang Rangers when my shifts and Rangers fixtures allow it.
 
I would love to see Clydebank return to the senior leagues. I always had a soft spot for them (probably because of the Cooper connection).

I thought that the way that they were allowed to be bought over and converted into a Phoenix club for Airdrie was a disgrace - at a bare minimum they should have been made to start down in the second division.

Ideal situation for me would be if one day the 2 clubs met in the playoffs, with Airdrie Utd going down into the lowland leagues & being replaced by Clydebank.
 
Would Junior clubs even want that? There's a old fashioned romance about Junior football and it would be sad to see that end.

I still thoroughly enjoy going to see Cambuslang Rangers when my shifts and Rangers fixtures allow it.
Technically there are no Junior clubs anymore, every club in the pyramid is now a Senior side.

Ultimately there will be many clubs who want to progress and find there level but at the same time many will be happy with where they are and the pyramid still allows that. Majority of sides will still find themselves playing near enough the same teams each season but it just won’t officially be called Junior football anymore.
 
Zero I believe. Operating costs are covered by income and the benefactor has paid for the capital projects out of his own pocket.

There's not a chance their wage bill is covered by what comes in mate.

Unless Mick is sponsoring them through Black Rooster or their chairman is sponsoring them in an exaggerated way which takes us back round to a benefactor throwing money at it.

Which is fine btw. That's football at all levels. But it's not too sustainable.
 
Admission prices would go up significantly though the higher they climb. Some team get good crowds at the moment, I do wonder if that would continue.
I agree. Prices go up and attendances will go down.

Add in the travelling, the midweek games and the travelling to away midweek games mean that support wouldn’t get to as many games. I know midweek away games would be virtually impossible to get to.

However it’s not about me getting to games it’s about the club. Manager has always said he wants them to play at the highest level possible. If that means winning the league and playoffs this season or the next two or three. Then progressing through the LL and I to league 2 then so be it.
 
Maybe the likes of Kelty Hearts who are already in League 2 - Bonnyrigg Rose in the Lowland League at a push - could make it to the Championship within ten years but the Premiership would be a step too far for them I think.

Teams of that size simply don’t have the fanbase to support teams in the top division.

The Premiership is really made of up 5 teams who are near or near about guaranteed to be in that division every year (Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen) and the rest either yo-yo between the Prem/Championship (Ross County/Inverness) or go in cycles of staying up (Hamilton’s 5/6 year stay).

The bigger non-league sides will be slow to move up the pyramid because of the prohibitive set up of the League 2 Relegation Play-off. Currently the winners of the Highland/Lowland leagues play each other to determine who plays the 10th placed League 2 team in a 2 leg play off. Until automatic relegation places are in place then the pyramid will continue to bottleneck at the top of Tier 5.

But theoretically, I’d say the likeliest teams to be in the SPFL within 10 years would be Bonnyrigg (T5), Fraserburgh (T5) and Talbot (T6). I’ve not even began to consider the ambitious, well backed teams like Tranent and Linlithgow Rose (both T6) in the East.

2014/15 three of they 5 were in the Championship, obviously a reason for us.

A lot of junior players could easily play at a higher level but make more money in their day job, or prefer the job security, future pension. Junior teams moving up would just replace existing teams with their players.

Similarly fans from Pro teams go watch juniors too when they can, no junior team has a sufficient fan base for top level football.

The only way Scottish football would improve or be more competitive is if ourselves and celtic went to another league, there is too many teams but mainly a West Scotland thing it’s either Rangers or Celtic, very few teams attract enough locals to their games.
 
There's not a chance their wage bill is covered by what comes in mate.

Unless Mick is sponsoring them through Black Rooster or their chairman is sponsoring them in an exaggerated way which takes us back round to a benefactor throwing money at it.

Which is fine btw. That's football at all levels. But it's not too sustainable.

Can only take the guys word for it. I am sure Black Rooster and Killie Pies put in a level of sponsorship but from what I hear the committee at Darvel also do a brilliant job fund raising for the club.
 
Maybe the likes of Kelty Hearts who are already in League 2 - Bonnyrigg Rose in the Lowland League at a push - could make it to the Championship within ten years but the Premiership would be a step too far for them I think.

Teams of that size simply don’t have the fanbase to support teams in the top division.

The Premiership is really made of up 5 teams who are near or near about guaranteed to be in that division every year (Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen) and the rest either yo-yo between the Prem/Championship (Ross County/Inverness) or go in cycles of staying up (Hamilton’s 5/6 year stay).

The bigger non-league sides will be slow to move up the pyramid because of the prohibitive set up of the League 2 Relegation Play-off. Currently the winners of the Highland/Lowland leagues play each other to determine who plays the 10th placed League 2 team in a 2 leg play off. Until automatic relegation places are in place then the pyramid will continue to bottleneck at the top of Tier 5.

But theoretically, I’d say the likeliest teams to be in the SPFL within 10 years would be Bonnyrigg (T5), Fraserburgh (T5) and Talbot (T6). I’ve not even began to consider the ambitious, well backed teams like Tranent and Linlithgow Rose (both T6) in the East.
There needs to be a better setup to get promoted to the Lowland league as well. Think as it stands it's a playoff between the bottom side in that league and the winners of East, West and South of Scotland league winners for one place in the Lowland. You would think all 4 leagues could get together and maybe see the teams within the Lowland filter into the other 3 leagues and then aim for a better way of promotion being achievable into league 2.
 
Can only take the guys word for it. I am sure Black Rooster and Killie Pies put in a level of sponsorship but from what I hear the committee at Darvel also do a brilliant job fund raising for the club.
Not sure if Black Rooster are ever mentioned in sponsorship.
Is there not also a guy who lives in the states who came from the valley who throws them some cash? QTS throw a bit in too.
John Gall (Brownings) is riding the crest of a business wave just now with the wholesale side of things and is a wealthy man, however so was McCluckie (sp) at the Buffs years ago, so were/are Willie Hamilton and Willie Hyslop at Hurlford when they were winning the Scottish not so long ago.
History tells you that these things go full circle, I remember mid 90's Darvel were on the brink and basically fulfilling fixtures using under 18's from boys clubs.

I also believe Gall will end up on the Killie board, when that happens it could impact Darvel seriously.

All that said, I hope everyone enjoys the ride and I hope they get the result on Saturday.
 
Biggest issue has to be what crowds these teams can achieve as they climb the leagues. Can see a few teams getting up to 1,000, maybe 2,000 fans most weeks but it would take something radical to get that up to even 5,000 or 6,000 to become sustainable at the top end. And that’s if your ground can hold as much. Also not sure the existing fan bases would be willing to pay top flight ticket prices.
This.

It can be done, other posters have spoken of ICT and teams like that, but it depends on slowly building a long term sustainability and a larger fanbase to limit the risks involved with a single benefactor.
 
Not sure if Black Rooster are ever mentioned in sponsorship.
Is there not also a guy who lives in the states who came from the valley who throws them some cash? QTS throw a bit in too.
John Gall (Brownings) is riding the crest of a business wave just now with the wholesale side of things and is a wealthy man, however so was McCluckie (sp) at the Buffs years ago, so were/are Willie Hamilton and Willie Hyslop at Hurlford when they were winning the Scottish not so long ago.
History tells you that these things go full circle, I remember mid 90's Darvel were on the brink and basically fulfilling fixtures using under 18's from boys clubs.

I also believe Gall will end up on the Killie board, when that happens it could impact Darvel seriously.

All that said, I hope everyone enjoys the ride and I hope they get the result on Saturday.
Gall and McLeish are putting their own cash in

And they can sustain that given Gall has a very successful business portfolio, and McLeish has his £80m for the QTS sale
 
2014/15 three of they 5 were in the Championship, obviously a reason for us.

A lot of junior players could easily play at a higher level but make more money in their day job, or prefer the job security, future pension. Junior teams moving up would just replace existing teams with their players.

Similarly fans from Pro teams go watch juniors too when they can, no junior team has a sufficient fan base for top level football.

The only way Scottish football would improve or be more competitive is if ourselves and celtic went to another league, there is too many teams but mainly a West Scotland thing it’s either Rangers or Celtic, very few teams attract enough locals to their games.
Of course but historically these are unusual circumstances, even if Hearts did get relegated again a couple seasons back. Realistically Hearts/Hibs should never be in the Championship but football doesn’t work like that!
 
There needs to be a better setup to get promoted to the Lowland league as well. Think as it stands it's a playoff between the bottom side in that league and the winners of East, West and South of Scotland league winners for one place in the Lowland. You would think all 4 leagues could get together and maybe see the teams within the Lowland filter into the other 3 leagues and then aim for a better way of promotion being achievable into league 2.
Yeah agreed, feel like the Lowland League have a cheek hitting out at the SPFL for the League 2 relegation play off when their own league is just as bad.

Should probably end up being the east/west premier champions automatically go up and the bottom 2 in the Lowland come down. Maybe the South can be given a play-off spot against 3rd bottom as the standard of that league is a lot poorer.
 
I don't follow any of the junior teams as such, but the success of both Talbot and the Bankies has got me wondering what teams we will see in and what teams we will see demoted out the division system.

Folk who are more clued up will have a better idea but could we potentially see a junior team reach the premier League of championship within the next 10 years.
Way back in the 50s Irvine Meadow was the team to beat,there was always talk of them joining division B,but it never happened.
 
Yeah agreed, feel like the Lowland League have a cheek hitting out at the SPFL for the League 2 relegation play off when their own league is just as bad.

Should probably end up being the east/west premier champions automatically go up and the bottom 2 in the Lowland come down. Maybe the South can be given a play-off spot against 3rd bottom as the standard of that league is a lot poorer.
Yeah still think whoever finishes bottom of league 2 should be relegated automatically then some form of playoff with 9th position for a 2nd spot in the league pyramid. The whole pyramid system needs looked at in general as clubs that have ambition are going to be stopped with the current format which is wrong.
 
Mentioned in another thread I could see EK/Bankies replacing some of the dregs of the top 4 leagues.

However, these ambitious clubs will only stay ambitious for so long and I’m not sure it’ll be long enough them to fulfil them.
EK won't ever pull a decent support imo. Town is Rangers or Celtic that's it. I would actually say they'd pull less than the other new town Livingston do even in the top league.
 
Back
Top