Lack of subs tonight

[Sir Sasa Papac]

I think some folk just expect us to make subs because they're there to be made, as opposed to thinking about how they impact the game.

Who should he have brought on tonight and who for? And how would they have changed the outcome of the game?

It'll be a lazy stick to beat Gerrard tonight with IMO

Out team was knackered going into the last 20 mins that was evident to anyone.

With a tiring team against a team who have just put two more attackers on we should be shoring up the team to hold out. Hellander was the obvious substitution to either go in as a sweeper or in front of the back 4.

In the end we were lucky to get out with the draw as the game was all them in the last third

 

[Sir Sasa Papac]

And it totally disrupted our play.

That’s not why we drew in Benfica at all. Same as tonight, the team needed fresh legs to see it out but instead they got complacent.

Not sure where the don’t criticise Gerrard team has emerged from but not even using one sub in a huge game is in itself very unusual.

 

[temperance]

Didn’t think we really had the subs available for were we needed change, it was our midfield 3 who tired but we didn’t really have an option off the bench for there

Correct, unless he took a gamble and used Helander or Bassey in front of the defence, and you csn imagine the reaction if that failed.

 

[SpectraBear]

Could of brought big bassey on in midfield just for his running power going forward, ball just kept coming back at us after 70mins

 

[Potnbear]

Nobody is saying he's clueless, simply many think he should have made a change when the game was running away from us.

It's a perfectly sensible point of view, and one some will agree and some won't. Gerrard has been utterly magnificent but doesn't mean you can't think he got something wrong.

Did you read the threads last night? Albeit, many were probably filth posters, how folk are staggered buy Gerrards decisions, Gerrard froze, Gerrard never learns, Gerrard should have seen this, that, Gerrards game management is poor, its deja vu, Gerrards always the same with subs and quite a few more little quips. Many of those quips are referring to ongoing

 

[Angrybluebear]

Who'd have thunk the top thread on here is moaning faced c*nts being moaning faced c*nts as effin usual.

At least they have something to post about after months of keeping their daft mouths shut with our excellent form.

I was going to bump my thread about lack of subs after the last game against Benfica,

but remembered what was said after it, “we will learn from this”

Did we learn ?

 

[Remo-town]

This has nothing to do with where we are as a team or a club even. The argument is that more often than not, Gerrard is not using substitutions effectively in games. I went back another round of fixtures of Champions League and Europa League matches. Make that once in 80 matches has a manager failed to make a single substitution in a game. You have to wonder just how far that run stretches. It's a bit of a tedious process to find out but it would not shock me if it went back several hundreds of games. It's bizarre why he did not make a change tonight given the amount of running we had to do within the game.

Gerrard has transformed us and built us into a very decent team but his use of substitutions or lack of them is no doubt his biggest weakness. Jorge Jesus made substitutions in both games against us and on both occasions they had a meaningful impact on the game which saved them from two defeats.

Having a squad worth a 100 million euros will do that.

 

[Papatango]

It seems to be universally accepted (well almost) that we didn’t have the subs in the bench that could have done the job required on the night.

Lets look at it from another angle shall we?

Given that we had gotten ourselves into a winning position in Portugal and let it slip towards the end against very fast, fit and tactically aware opponents should we perhaps have looked at including including more defensive minded players on the bench last night?

As the home team it shouldn’t have been unrealistic to hope that we could have gone ahead in this game as we did in the away leg and again it’s not too unrealistic to expect that with the intense pressing game that we play players will be tiring around the minute mark.

Hands up I don’t know much about our fringe players so I have to ask do we have anyone suitable available that could have been on the bench that would have suited the game plan?

I’m in no way criticising SG or any of the management team but the questions being asked about the lack of subs and the lack of suitability of the subs on the bench are valid particularly in light of how the away leg panned out.

 

[Euro Scooter]

The only change I could see that would have made any sense last night would have been Bassey on for Barisic who seemed to be struggling after taking a knock. Benfica seemed to have switched to targeting him instead of Tav. Even then, I only really picked up on that after their first goal.

I imagine Gerrard would have caught the same, or more, flack if he had taken Barisic off and then we conceded.

 

[Allybear]

I agree that the one possible sub that could have made a difference was perhaps Hellander. However replacing for a forward wouldve equally meant being totally under the kosh for the last 20 min without having any realistic goal threat. We may well have held out but given Benficas constant goal threat there was no guarantee, they were bloody good. Both our midfield and defense done well to contain them, but I think it was our lack of midfield options on the bench last night that cost us. Someone clever enough to hold the ball up better in their half and at the same time still pose a threat.

 

[ChildOfGod]

Could of brought big bassey on in midfield just for his running power going forward, ball just kept coming back at us after 70mins

I agree that the one possible sub that could have made a difference was perhaps Hellander. However replacing for a forward wouldve equally meant being totally under the kosh for the last 20 min without having any realistic goal threat. We may well have held out but given Benficas constant goal threat there was no guarantee, they were bloody good. Both our midfield and defense done well to contain them, but I think it was our lack of midfield options on the bench last night that cost us. Someone clever enough to hold the ball up better in their half and at the same time still pose a threat.

Re Bassey in a driving supporting role to a forward that option didn’t come to mind at the time but i see your thinking now .

maybe Goldson n helander as CD and balogun in front or even between would have been possible . Of course what we have to recognise is of it was entirely unrehearsed then it is a high-end gamble but we have used it before briefly in another game .

 

[Angrybluebear]

Having a squad worth a 100 million euros will do that.

Helander is a Swedish Internationalist played at the top level in Italy, with the one exception has been outstanding in Europe.

Barker started both away in the draw and home in the win against Porto last season. He also came on as a sub in the home win against Feyenoord.

Let’s remember Porto finished above Benfica in winning their league last year.

Itten is a Swiss internationalist with European experience.

There is three right away without considering the promising Bassey.

Let’s not try make excuses, all the talk lately has been what a great squad we have.

 

[Drovavan Dünaditch]

This is actually extremely unfair on Barker.

I'm not saying that he'd have come on and scored a brace but he has never caused us vulnerability in our shape, he works hard off the ball and does his job.

Absolute worst case scenario is that we got a pacey option for counter attacks that might have been wasteful infront of goal, Kent being so tired meant that he was that anyway.

Not a dig at Barker as an individual but rather the type of player. Difficult for any player to get up to the pace of that game and can cause problems like Arfield in Lisbon who also had never caused issue with the shape.

Aribo gives you a better out ball to assist with holding the ball up when we’re sitting deep to see out the game rather than bringing on a Barker type player as a like for like for Kent.

 

[Valley Bluenose]

We have folk trying to justify their crying about the lack of subs by suggesting that we bring either a centre-back or a left-back into midfield. Its nuts. There were two realistic subs last night, bring on either Barker or Hagi. Either would have caused uproar on here 'not what we need'.

The fact is the absence of both Jack and Aribo last night had a huge effect of the options available to us. At least one of those would have started, maybe both, and if either of them hadn't started then the other would have been the sub we could, and would, have brought on.

 

[Barca 72]

Barker should have been on for Roofe and Hagi for Arfield or even Roofe off for Helander.

 

[KensingtonBlue]

Gerrard couldn't win.

If he made subs and we'd ended up 2-2, he'd be blamed for tinkering something that was working.

In the end he managed the game as well as he could and got another great result from a top European side. And we're still well in the mix for qualification. That's all that matters.

 

[Danger Zone]

Same old on here. Some people just can’t accept that an after match criticism is not hindsight and it’s not just people looking for an excuse to have a pop.

We’ve creeped back to that mindset of ‘no one can dare offer any criticism’ (even if it’s constructive) because the gaffer is infallible. The result is still ultimately a good one in the grand scheme albeit a letdown when you look at the Benfica games individually in the sense that we dropped a 2 goal lead not once but twice to the same side.

But none of this changes the fact that we’ve made a blistering start to the season and the gaffer has got 95% of it absolutely spot on so far. But feck me people really do need to snap out of this almost teen girl mindset of not wanting to hear any criticism of their idols whether it’s valid it or not; it really does remind me of one direction fans and the like in that sense. We can say substitutions were needed last night and it was a mistake to leave gassed players on the park which Benfica ultimate took advantage of; acknowledging that doesnt mean we’re disrespecting Gerrard or taking away from the A+ job he’s doing so far this season.

 

[brain]

But feck me people really do need to snap out of this almost teen girl mindset of not wanting to hear any criticism of their idols whether it’s valid it or not;

It'll never stop IMO because it's largely a personality thing. I like to analyse games and talk about what went right and what went wrong. But I've discovered countless times that if the result was good, some will lose it if you mention anything remotely negative about the team or a player.

 

[Its-Sebo]

It's totally subjective and impossible to know if the lack of subs had any positive or negative effect on the scoreline.

Subs are largely much more of a roll of the dice than other small, mid-game tactical changes because of the unknown factor of a player coming on to the pitch cold, especially in a game such as last night. They can galvanise you or they can take a while to get up to speed and disrupt your flow resulting in problems.

For that reason, I'm never overly critical of sub usage so long as I can see the logic in it. Last night, the logic was pretty clear – Benfica were playing at high speed with intense pressure, any defender or midfielder coming into that game would have to hit the ground running or they'd get punished.

Could a sub have prevented us from conceding the second goal? Maybe. Could a sub have resulted in us conceding an additional goal? Maybe.

I suspect if Jack was available, who's got a lot of experience in these types of games, he'd probably have come on.

 

[Remo-town]

Helander is a Swedish Internationalist played at the top level in Italy, with the one exception has been outstanding in Europe.

Barker started both away in the draw and home in the win against Porto last season. He also came on as a sub in the home win against Feyenoord.

Let’s remember Porto finished above Benfica in winning their league last year.

Itten is a Swiss internationalist with European experience.

There is three right away without considering the promising Bassey.

Let’s not try make excuses, all the talk lately has been what a great squad we have.

I'm not making excuses, I've accepted these things happen in football.

When we came back against Braga last season, we were the best thing since sliced bread. Did we care about who they used or didnt use as subs, no we didn't, yet here we are with some supporters who cant wait to have a go.

We're a big fish in a very small pond and most other teams in europe apart from the smaller countries have absolutely no fear of Scottish teams, or to be more exact. Us or them.

So what about porto last season? what's that got to do with this season?

 

[Angrybluebear]

I'm not making excuses, I've accepted these things happen in football.

When we came back against Braga last season, we were the best thing since sliced bread. Did we care about who they used or didnt use as subs, no we didn't, yet here we are with some supporters who cant wait to have a go.

We're a big fish in a very small pond and most other teams in europe apart from the smaller countries have absolutely no fear of Scottish teams, or to be more exact. Us or them.

So what about porto last season? what's that got to do with this season?

I think Braga has been a one off in terms of using subs to turn a game around.

Our lack of subs and not killing games off is more common than not.

we conceded to Osijek in the 89 minute but just held on.

Spartak we were winning 1-0, 2-1, 3-2 and lost

we conceded 84 mins away to lose to Rapid Vienna

we conceded in injury time to lose a game we were winning against Young Boys

we conceded a 89 minute equaliser against Young Boys to lose top place in the group.

we conceded 88 minute against Leverkusen to take away any slim chance we may have had In the return leg.

I may be wrong but I think the only game we scored really late on was Legia at home to stop us going into extra time.

we didn’t need to make subs to chase the game like we did when it worked against Braga.

We have just conceded goals in 77 and 91 mins then 78 and 81 to lose two goal leads against Benfica. The first time particularly bad as we had been playing from around the 20th minute against 10 men.

My point regarding Porto last season was in relation to those saying we didn’t have the quality on the bench, Barker started in the away draw and the home win (as did Helander) against Porto who finished above Benfica in their league and look like qualifying from their Champions League Group this season. Benfica got knocked out at the qualifying stage of the CL. If Barker and Helander could compete and not look out of place against from what I seen, a better team in Porto, than Benfica are, it blows that argument out the water.

 

[Danger Zone]

It'll never stop IMO because it's largely a personality thing. I like to analyse games and talk about what went right and what went wrong. But I've discovered countless times that if the result was good, some will lose it if you mention anything remotely negative about the team or the player.

I think you’re right. I do understand folk getting wound up when people start looking for extremely petty and minor things to pick at, but I see no issue with discussing how we ended up dropping a 2 goal lead for the second time.

 

[derbybear]

At 2-0 with 15 to go, take a foward off and put a defender on ffs.

At that point we didn't need to score more - we needed to ensure we tightened up and didn't conceded.

So frustrating!

Stop the right back playing centre forward.

 

[SpectraBear]

Re Bassey in a driving supporting role to a forward that option didn’t come to mind at the time but i see your thinking now .

maybe Goldson n helander as CD and balogun in front or even between would have been possible . Of course what we have to recognise is of it was entirely unrehearsed then it is a high-end gamble but we have used it before briefly in another game .

If he didnt fancy any of the midfielders on the bench he has to think about a way round it, while not ideal, sticking a defender on in midfield while 2-0 will boost defensive side and in same way you take a midfielder off and put a striker on when you need a goal.

 

[Valley Bluenose]

If he didnt fancy any of the midfielders on the bench he has to think about a way round it, while not ideal, sticking a defender on in midfield while 2-0 will boost defensive side and in same way you take a midfielder off and put a striker on when you need a goal.

Unless you plan on going man for man then putting a centre-back or full-back into midfield like that, against a quality passing side like Benfica, simply means they will get dragged all over the place. The likelihood is that they will simply get 'passed around' for fun.

 

[wilso10]

Out team was knackered going into the last 20 mins that was evident to anyone.

With a tiring team against a team who have just put two more attackers on we should be shoring up the team to hold out. Hellander was the obvious substitution to either go in as a sweeper or in front of the back 4.

In the end we were lucky to get out with the draw as the game was all them in the last third

Our players were knackered after 70 minutes?! You really believe that?

Either we have some very qualified fitness coaches on here or some of you have direct access to the players heart rate monitors because I'm not sure how else you would know that our whole team was knackered after 70 minutes.

And if they were "knackered" after 70 minutes at this stage of the season I would be very much concerned about their fitness which sounds a little strange given how much we've been raving about their fitness this season.

I'll go against the grain here and say maybe they weren't knackered and actually Benfica just came into the game a lot more in the 2nd half and started to take control of possession, resulting in us chasing a lot more than we're used to?

The idea the players were knackered last night is hyperbole nonsense IMO.

 

[It Is Old But Beautiful]

If we had Jack or Zungu we would’ve been able to hold on.

 

[dougiem]

If buts and maybes ffs 7 years ago we were getting knocked out the ramsden cup ffs

 

[Toproadloyal]

Couldn’t believe we didn’t even waste time with a few subs

Crying out for hellander to come on

Especially the last game, a sub should’ve been brought on in injury time at 3-2.
Kills the game and momentum. We didn’t have the players to change especially in the middle of the park apart from Helander to tighten things up at the back.

 

[Macca]

I think Braga has been a one off in terms of using subs to turn a game around.

Our lack of subs and not killing games off is more common than not.

we conceded to Osijek in the 89 minute but just held on.

Spartak we were winning 1-0, 2-1, 3-2 and lost

we conceded 84 mins away to lose to Rapid Vienna

we conceded in injury time to lose a game we were winning against Young Boys

we conceded a 89 minute equaliser against Young Boys to lose top place in the group.

we conceded 88 minute against Leverkusen to take away any slim chance we may have had In the return leg.

I may be wrong but I think the only game we scored really late on was Legia at home to stop us going into extra time.

we didn’t need to make subs to chase the game like we did when it worked against Braga.

We have just conceded goals in 77 and 91 mins then 78 and 81 to lose two goal leads against Benfica. The first time particularly bad as we had been playing from around the 20th minute against 10 men.

My point regarding Porto last season was in relation to those saying we didn’t have the quality on the bench, Barker started in the away draw and the home win (as did Helander) against Porto who finished above Benfica in their league and look like qualifying from their Champions League Group this season. Benfica got knocked out at the qualifying stage of the CL. If Barker and Helander could compete and not look out of place against from what I seen, a better team in Porto, than Benfica are, it blows that argument out the water.

what's you point caller? lots of moaning about lack of subs but what's your overarching point? We are in great shape no? look a completely different animal from past 2 season? Yes we should have won at least 1 of the ties against Benfica but we are still top of that group

 

[erskine bear]

If buts and maybes ffs 7 years ago we were getting knocked out the ramsden cup ffs

When do we stop using that as an excuse?. Genuine question because it’s not something I agree with, this is here & now.

Getting knocked out of the Ramsdens cup has no relevance on our failure to see out two goal leads on two occasions, especially considering we have a very strong & professional squad.

I understand we should be grateful that we aren’t kicking about the doldrums anymore, but it’s dangerous thinking “aw well, can’t be critical after that, mind performances from 7 years ago”.

I see both sides of the subs argument by the way, I just don’t agree with looking at the past as an excuse to be happy all the time.

Just personal opinion, not saying you have to agree or whatever. Each to their own etc

 

[dt17]

Those saying we didn't have options on the bench. Nonsense.

Against Killie we brought on a third CB. No reason we couldn't have brought on Helander to shore things up...Roofe or Morelos could've made way.

Even in midfield, Arfield could've dropped back and Hagi could've came on.

Barker for fresh legs out wide etc.

 

[CaptainHolt]

Those saying we didn't have options on the bench. Nonsense.

Against Killie we brought on a third CB. No reason we couldn't have brought on Helander to shore things up...Roofe or Morelos could've made way.

Even in midfield, Arfield could've dropped back and Hagi could've came on.

Barker for fresh legs out wide etc.

It was far too early to bring on a third centre back, they would have passed the ball around us anyway. Arfield could drop back to where? He was already playing as an 8.
Have people ever played football? Throwing a sub on there is suicide. Look at the Scotland vs Serbia game, it’s virtually impossible to get up to the speed of the game in that team.

 

[dt17]

It was far too early to bring on a third centre back, they would have passed the ball around us anyway. Arfield could drop back to where? He was already playing as an 8.
Have people ever played football? Throwing a sub on there is suicide. Look at the Scotland vs Serbia game, it’s virtually impossible to get up to the speed of the game in that team.

Throwing a sub on is suicide? Yet as someone else pointed out in the thread - out of 40 games of European football this week, we were the only side not to do so.

When you can see players are tiring, they start to switch of mentally. That's natural with fatigue. We have a squad big enough now to deal with this.

I'd imagine there'll be some players who'll start to get frustrated at the lack of game time. Hagi and Itten for example.

 

[Wilbour]

All I will say is I my opinion I thought it was unusual to say the least, that we did not bring on one single substitute ie fresh legs when they brought on 5 pairs of fresh legs that pulled it back for them.

 

[rossgers]

I think Braga has been a one off in terms of using subs to turn a game around.

Our lack of subs and not killing games off is more common than not.

we conceded to Osijek in the 89 minute but just held on.

Spartak we were winning 1-0, 2-1, 3-2 and lost

we conceded 84 mins away to lose to Rapid Vienna

we conceded in injury time to lose a game we were winning against Young Boys

we conceded a 89 minute equaliser against Young Boys to lose top place in the group.

we conceded 88 minute against Leverkusen to take away any slim chance we may have had In the return leg.

I may be wrong but I think the only game we scored really late on was Legia at home to stop us going into extra time.

we didn’t need to make subs to chase the game like we did when it worked against Braga.

We have just conceded goals in 77 and 91 mins then 78 and 81 to lose two goal leads against Benfica. The first time particularly bad as we had been playing from around the 20th minute against 10 men.

My point regarding Porto last season was in relation to those saying we didn’t have the quality on the bench, Barker started in the away draw and the home win (as did Helander) against Porto who finished above Benfica in their league and look like qualifying from their Champions League Group this season. Benfica got knocked out at the qualifying stage of the CL. If Barker and Helander could compete and not look out of place against from what I seen, a better team in Porto, than Benfica are, it blows that argument out the water.

Our style of play, with pressing out of possession, full backs attacking requires high levels of fitness and intensity, We quite often look knackered towards the end of big games especially in Europe. I thought Barisic was blowing in the first half last night and Davis could certainly have used a breather after an hour. I think we can do even better and improve on all the examples above by making better use of substitutions, even if just to break up play and kill games.

 

[Angrybluebear]

Are we ever going to grasp the concept of substitutions ?

Last week 2 nil up playing ten men for 3/4 of the match, we end up holding on for a 2-1 victory.

Today outwith Davis we had a team of passengers right from the start, had Hagi not just been booked I suspect he would have lasted longer than he did but to be chasing goals to wait till the 83 and 88 minutes to make further changes is a complete joke.

We could have replaced any of the outfield ten apart from Davis and no matter who came on would be an improvement.

Why spend a fortune assembling a squad to be scared to make changes against the bottom of the league.

 

[erskine bear]

Are we ever going to grasp the concept of substitutions ?

Last week 2 nil up playing ten men for 3/4 of the match, we end up holding on for a 2-1 victory.

Today outwith Davis we had a team of passengers right from the start, had Hagi not just been booked I suspect he would have lasted longer than he did but to be chasing goals to wait till the 83 and 88 minutes to make further changes is a complete joke.

We could have replaced any of the outfield ten apart from Davis and no matter who came on would be an improvement.

Why spend a fortune assembling a squad to be scared to make changes against the bottom of the league.

His subs have improved massively this season, one of his subs scored the equaliser & scored the winner last time we played them.

Due to injury we only really had Zungu on the bench out with Itten, Defoe & Barker. We had a goalie, a centre half, a left back & Greg Stewart, not exactly what’s required.

I’m not saying he always gets them right, but he is improving & when you are missing three first team players your options are weaker.

 

[Angrybluebear]

His subs have improved massively this season, one of his subs scored the equaliser & scored the winner last time we played them.

Due to injury we only really had Zungu on the bench out with Itten, Defoe & Barker. We had a goalie, a centre half, a left back & Greg Stewart, not exactly what’s required.

I’m not saying he always gets them right, but he is improving & when you are missing three first team players your options are weaker.

You have highlighted what subs can do, we just dont use them effectively,

Itten should have been on at half time, he actually only got as long as he did because Hagi got booked.

Bringing Defoe on in 83 was criminal with the amount of balls pinging about the box, he still managed to create a chance from nothing and get a decent shot on target.

Greg Stewart has proved he can play in this league, he has scored goals against better opposition, in fact today would have been ideal for him, he is quick footed in and around the box, where we were camped. He has been wasted in his time here. Another wasted signing and waste of a wage, through no fault of his own. Probably due to playing him out of nowhere as a number 9 losing away to Hearts In the Cup and made a scapegoat.

why chase Zungu for so long and not play him, he isn’t a renowned scored but has 5 in 28 at International level, it would at least have been fresh legs.

 

[Spyro]

I thought we made our subs way too late. It was clear as day Morelos and Kent weren't going to score today - should have switched them much sooner.