Lionel Messi

would Maradona or R9 get the crazy stats Messi and CR7 got if they were playing under the rules of today along with the sports sceince etc? I think R9 probably would have.
Could Messi and CR7 thrive on the rules Maradona and R9 played under, i.e proper tackles?
That's one of the reasons it's hard to compare. Messi is one of the greatest players in football history, and that's enough for me
 
Last edited:
cooperman said:
would Maradona or R9 get the crazy stats Messi and CR7 got if they were playing under the rules of today along with the sports sceince etc? I think R9 probably would have.
Could Messi and CR7 thrive on the rules Maradona and R9 played under, i.e proper tackles?
That's one of the reason it's hard to compare. Messi is one of the greatest players in football history, and that's enough for me
Click to expand...

Nobody doubts that Messi is a fantastic player, but he's been lucky enough to play in an era where the game is almost a non-contact sport and played on bowling green surfaces. He's probably in the top 10 of all time, but nowhere near the top 3-5.
 
Sir Walter’s Warriors said:
If he had chosen to instead play for Spain and therefore been part of the team that won the 2008-2010-2012 treble of Euros, World Cup, Euros would there even be a debate as to whether he was the best?
Click to expand...
But he didn't. Or to spin it another way, if Jim Baxter was Brazilian would he have been in this argument. You're post is hypothetical, it carries no weight whatsoever
 
muttley said:
Nobody doubts that Messi is a fantastic player, but he's been lucky enough to play in an era where the game is almost a non-contact sport and played on bowling green surfaces. He's probably in the top 10 of all time, but nowhere near the top 3-5.
Click to expand...
exactly mate, R9 would have ran riot in todays game of that I have no doubt. under the rules of today, chances are high that he'd likely to avoid those horrific knee injuries, which meant he'd have kept his unbelievable pace for longer in his career
 
hammer17 said:
just like the 2014 tournament in Brazil, Messi is dragging this underperforming Argentina side along.

He came to within a extra time Götze winner of winning the World Cup on his own

Ronaldo would have been watching Messi tonight, Messi doesn’t watch Ronaldo

Greatest player to have ever kicked a ball
Click to expand...
On his own? Give yourself a shake. Argentina wouldn't of got as far without messi granted, but take Mascherano out that team and the same could be said, he was outstanding
 
dt17 said:
I didn't say he luckily won 3 World Cups, I said luck plays a huge part in cup football. Surely that's not even debatable?
Click to expand...
The toughest cup competition to win ever is the current CL format and Messi has 3 of them. Often sidelined when talking about Maradona to suit agendas.
 
cooperman said:
exactly mate, R9 would have ran riot in todays game of that I have no doubt. under the rules of today, chances are high that he'd likely to avoid those horrific knee injuries, which meant he'd have kept his unbelievable pace for longer in his career
Click to expand...

Spot on, mate. R9 on his day was almost unstoppable in world football, even against the hammer throwers.
 
muttley said:
I agree. As for Messi, he would not have survived the physical aspect of the game allowed decades ago, so not in my top 3 of all time.
Click to expand...
Yes, he would have, football is more physical now - players are stronger and faster than they were in previous decades.

Not to mentioned the offside rule in 1990 making it far harder for attackers.

I honestly believe that there are certain players who could have played the game at anytime and their brilliance would shine through, Ronaldo and Messi are in that category and anyone claiming otherwise is letting a wierd personal dislike take over logic.
 
I've always been a CR7 goat man but Messi deserves a WC for his talent. I hate Argentina for obvs reasons however I could accept them wining outright this year to see Messi lift it.
 
ICA_86 said:
The greatest of my generation all round - probably easily - but I’d still rather pay to watch both Zidane and Ronaldinho before him.

I don’t mean that in a negative way towards Messi though. He’s the best but the other two are just more my cup of tea in terms of purely watching football.
Click to expand...
Ronaldinho is easily the most beautiful exciting performer of a football ever. Easily. And all done with a smile.
 
watching players like Messi Maradona Pele Best has given me memories that have made my life happier. Geniuses all of them.
Pele in the 1970 world cup was incredible, cemented my opinion that I would never see the likes again.
Maradona in 86 was undoubtedly the greatest single performance in a world cup by anyone player ever.
Messi abilities and some of the things he has done is well unbelievable.
George Best wow what a player, so good we sometimes just expected it to happen every time he took the field.
There are many more top performers over the years in the great game the 4 I mention are the top tier for me the one who is King is PELE for me but all of them were and are magical.
 
Sir Walter’s Warriors said:
Only reason people say Pele is because he won world cups but he had a much better team round him, prime evidence being the fact that they won in 62 when he got injured in the second match. Detractors damn Messi for similar reasons (only as good because he was in strong Barcelona side)

Only reason people say Maradonna is because he won 86 World Cup and Napoli the league, but at best that means he had a greater peak few years (arguable) but unarguably he did not have the longevity of brilliance of Messi (Or Ronaldo)

Messi has it all bar a World Cup and performances in another top league but he has destroyed teams from every other top league in the Champions league. People become numb to his brilliance because it has happened over so long a period that it just becomes the norm.
Click to expand...

Great point btw. Do you think if Messi got injured tomorrow and missed the rest of the tournament as Argentina went on to win it people would give him any credit? Of course not.

cooperman said:
would Maradona or R9 get the crazy stats Messi and CR7 got if they were playing under the rules of today along with the sports sceince etc? I think R9 probably would have.
Could Messi and CR7 thrive on the rules Maradona and R9 played under, i.e proper tackles?
That's one of the reasons it's hard to compare. Messi is one of the greatest players in football history, and that's enough for me
Click to expand...

There's really not that much difference from when Ronaldo and Messi played, in fact their careers had an overlap.

Anyone who says Messi is protected or doesn't suffer bad fouls has obviously never watched much La Liga or Copa America.

GovanFront4 said:
The toughest cup competition to win ever is the current CL format and Messi has 3 of them. Often sidelined when talking about Maradona to suit agendas.
Click to expand...

He actually has 4, but I agree.
 
People getting all bleary eyed over di Stefano, puskas, Pele, Maradona, right up to the present with the great cristiano ronaldo which is fair enough, however I believe Lionel Messi to be the Greatest ever.
 
The thing is, he’s a good player but no one ever really compares him to Ronaldo (both of them), maradona or Pele. That would be a cracking debate online. Who really was the best of the best? Shame because I think it would lead to many great points and a lot of discussion that hasn’t ever been had on the internet.
 
He's certainly one of the top two players of the last 15 years.

Less successful when it actually matters, but he tries and plays football "the right way"

He tried, and that's what really counts.

Look, he's still winning trophies in France. It's a country, it has trophies. I'm sure it matters to somebody.
 
I know its a clichè but it genuinely is impossible to compare different eras. Maradona done it in the hardest, most physical league in the world, at the time. Messi is doing it in an era where every top player is a peak athlete. Both insanely difficult, but different

Going back further to Pele, and his legend is even stranger. Its basically born off the back of World Cups, since he never played in Europe. And while he was undeniably, immensely talented, its a kind of narrow scope for the tag he gets. Still up there right enough.

In my opinion id take Messi over everyone, but i grew up with him and its possibly confirmation bias speaking and like i said the comparison will never be fair.
 
muttley said:
Argentinians would always pick Maradona over Messi, which says it all regarding where Messi sits in the best of all time status. He's great, but not that great.
Click to expand...

It doesn't really say anything though does it?

Mr_Miscellaneous said:
He's certainly one of the top two players of the last 15 years.

Less successful when it actually matters, but he tries and plays football "the right way"

He tried, and that's what really counts.

Look, he's still winning trophies in France. It's a country, it has trophies. I'm sure it matters to somebody.
Click to expand...

I mean if he wins 2 more trophies in his career he then becomes the footballer with the most trophies won. Presently he's won the most individual trophies of any footballer, ever.

He's scored more goals than any other footballer in history as well.
 
Johansen said:
But he didn't. Or to spin it another way, if Jim Baxter was Brazilian would he have been in this argument. You're post is hypothetical, it carries no weight whatsoever
Click to expand...
The whole premise of comparing players especially from different eras with different achievements and different standards of team mates is by its entire nature hypothetical. So by your logic none of our posts hold any weight whatsoever
 
Don’t really mind people opting for Diego given what he achieved but it’s embarrassing reading shite like “Messi wouldn’t have lasted back then because big lumps of wood liked to slide tackle”.

It’s embarrassing on a couple of levels, the first being that Messi’s been kicked up and down and assaulted countless times throughout his career; the second is he’s actually really strong, more so than Diego so why wouldn’t a player with superior physicality be unable handle these lumps of wood from yesteryear putting in a few hard tackles? If anything I’d be surprised if they could have gotten close enough to Messi to actually try and hurt him.

Anyway the biggest flaw of the lot is rooted in the fact most guys will have only seen the odd set of highlights from Serie A back in the day, so they’ll by basing Diego’s showings off a really small sample size, they didn’t get to see every minute he played akin to what we have now days. Anyway it’s just old blokes wanting to believe the star player of their generation was the one.
 
Last edited:
My GOAT vote goes to the Brazilian Ronaldo.

For me he was the closest thing we have had to 'unstoppable' at his absolute peak.

The perfect combination of power, pace, strength, unbelievable ball control, dribbling and finishing.

The way he could just glide past players like every elite player can.

He gave you that feeling before every game you watched him play, that you were buzzing to see what he would do with the ball, as he had that entertainment factor as well that the likes of Ronaldinho and Zidane gave.

He had the raw talent of Messi and the power and goalscoring threat of a CR7 as well. To me he was a combination of both.

The only thing that stops him being put forward in more peoples arguments is the fact he suffered insanely difficult injuries and came back not the same player, and as a result gets tarred with the 'Fat Ronaldo' tag.


'Fat Ronaldo' was still insanely good, but pre injury he was the greatest I've seen imo.
 
Pirlo said:
Don’t really mind people opting for Diego given what he achieved but it’s embarrassing reading shite like “Messi wouldn’t have lasted back then because big lumps of wood liked to slide tackle”.

It’s embarrassing on a couple of levels, the first being that Messi’s been kicked up and down and assaulted countless times throughout his career; the second is he’s actually really strong, more so than Diego so why wouldn’t a player with superior physicality be unable handle these lumps of wood from yesteryear putting in a few hard tackles? If anything I’d be surprised if they could have gotten close enough to Messi to actually try and hurt him.

Anyway the biggest flaw of the lot is rooted in the fact most guys will have only seen the odd set of highlife from Serie A back in the day, so they’ll by basing Diego’s showings off a really small sample size, they didn’t get to see every minute he played akin to what we have now days. Anyway it’s just old blokes wanting to believe the star player of their generation was the one.
Click to expand...
My dad will always say Maradona Is the best but to him he says Messi is very close which is completely understandable hard for me to really judge as I never seen Maradona
 
Obviously ageing but still a wonderful player.

He appears to do little “off the ball” then just explodes into action.
 
Laughing at the number of posts saying “ he’s not won a World Cup but he’s scored loads a champions league goals “ as if that’s some kind of insurmountable achievement. He played for one of the most dominant and powerful European sides of his era in Barcelona and he now plays for the richest club in Europe ffs.

We’ve seen first hand how easy it is for teams to smash goals in aplenty in that competition this season, unfortunately, and the whole competition has been geared towards helping about 8 teams get to the later stages by lining them up against low seeded sides. He’s had cannon fodder to score against like Celtic (7-0) to give one example.

To win a tournament that is only played every four years like the World Cup 3 times is the mark of greatness. Not a pidgeon shoot like the “champions” league. Messi doesn’t even have the most goals in that, Ronaldo does, or the best “ ratio” that some posters have mentioned, lewamdowski, Muller and di stefano all ahead of him.

Messi has been a great wee player to watch over the years but will never achieve what pele did , nor Maradona for that matter. Maradona made an ordinary Napoli win Serie A and led an average Argentina to World Cup glory. Messi has had the luxury of being in a world class team his whole career and when asked to take his club form to the world stage with Argentina folds under the pressure more often than not sadly.
 
dt17 said:
It doesn't really say anything though does it?



I mean if he wins 2 more trophies in his career he then becomes the footballer with the most trophies won. Presently he's won the most individual trophies of any footballer, ever.

He's scored more goals than any other footballer in history as well.
Click to expand...
Has he?
 
Bluebeard said:
Laughing at the number of posts saying “ he’s not won a World Cup but he’s scored loads a champions league goals “ as if that’s some kind of insurmountable achievement. He played for one of the most dominant and powerful European sides of his era in Barcelona and he now plays for the richest club in Europe ffs.

We’ve seen first hand how easy it is for teams to smash goals in aplenty in that competition this season, unfortunately, and the whole competition has been geared towards helping about 8 teams get to the later stages by lining them up against low seeded sides. He’s had cannon fodder to score against like Celtic (7-0) to give one example.

To win a tournament that is only played every four years like the World Cup 3 times is the mark of greatness. Not a pidgeon shoot like the “champions” league. Messi doesn’t even have the most goals in that, Ronaldo does, or the best “ ratio” that some posters have mentioned, lewamdowski, Muller and di stefano all ahead of him.

Messi has been a great wee player to watch over the years but will never achieve what pele did , nor Maradona for that matter. Maradona made an ordinary Napoli win Serie A and led an average Argentina to World Cup glory. Messi has had the luxury of being in a world class team his whole career and when asked to take his club form to the world stage with Argentina folds under the pressure more often than not sadly.
Click to expand...
You don’t half talk shite when it comes to this topic Magic De Boer. Pele’s Brazil side were so far out in front of everyone else that when he got injured they still went and won it without him, so how can you fawn over that and at the same time imply it’s easy for Messi because he played in a strong side (as pretty much every elite level player does in the modern game). You’re also prattling on about Ronaldo having a few more CL goals when he’s about 3 years older and has a lot more games, and then comparing ratios with centre forwards like Lewandowski when Messi isn’t a centre forward and has played a deeper role for about the last 4 or 5 years.

Napoli actually spent a fortune on players to win those titles and weren’t the only club to get their first Serie A title around that time either. Verona got their first and only Scudetto around the same time, and Sampdoria got their first and only Scudetto in 1990 right after Napoli won their second. Roma won what was only their second ever title in the 80’s too (their first coming in the 40’s) so the title being won by sides not accustomed to winning it was actually not that rare during that era. But of course over the years old punters have perpetuated this myth that what Napoli did was something completely out of the ordinary and it only happened because Diego was there. There’s never a mention of these other sides who upset the apple cart, soto speak; nor is there any mention of the vast sums of money the club spent to build a quality side. Instead it’s portrayed as Diego dragging lowly wee Napoli and their shite players to Serie A glory.

You don’t see anyone waxing lyrical about one of the Sampdoria or Verona players and giving it “Ohhh Verona just happened to win their only title because the great Galderisi was at the club, or Sampdoria just happened to win their only Scudetto when GOAT Vialli was there, that can’t be a coincidence”. That’s something that’s reserved for Diego who’s career has been romanticised beyond belief. And anyway how many Serie A games were you old boys really seeing during the 80’s? Cuz I’ll bet it was %^*& all given that very few would ever be televised and you’d have been lucky to see some short highlights at best.
 
My issue with Messi is that he needs the team style built around him for him to perform well whereas the other names mentioned can slot into near enough any other style and still do the business.

CR7 will always be better than Messi for that reason.

Zidane is still the GOAT and doubt anyone will ever replace him.
 
Pirlo said:
You don’t half talk shite when it comes to this topic Magic De Boer. Pele’s Brazil side were so far out in front of everyone else that when he got injured they still went and won it without him, so how can you fawn over that and at the same time imply it’s easy for Messi because he played in a strong side (as pretty much every elite level player does in the modern game). You’re also prattling on about Ronaldo having a few more CL goals when he’s about 3 years older and has a lot more games, and then comparing ratios with centre forwards like Lewandowski when Messi isn’t a centre forward and has played a deeper role for about the last 4 or 5 years.

Napoli actually spent a fortune on players to win those titles and weren’t the only club to get their first Serie A title around that time either. Verona got their first and only Scudetto around the same time, and Sampdoria got their first and only Scudetto in 1990 right after Napoli won their second. Roma won what was only their second ever title in the 80’s too (their first coming in the 40’s) so the title being won by sides not accustomed to winning it was actually not that rare during that era. But of course over the years old punters have perpetuated this myth that what Napoli did was something completely out of the ordinary and it only happened because Diego was there. There’s never a mention of these other sides who upset the apple cart, soto speak; nor is there any mention of the vast sums of money the club spent to build a quality side. Instead it’s portrayed as Diego dragging lowly wee Napoli and their shite players to Serie A glory.

You don’t see anyone waxing lyrical about one of the Sampdoria or Verona players and giving it “Ohhh Verona just happened to win their only title because the great Galderisi was at the club, or Sampdoria just happened to win their only Scudetto when GOAT Vialli was there, that can’t be a coincidence”. That’s something that’s reserved for Diego who’s career has been romanticised beyond belief. And anyway how many Serie A games were you old boys really seeing during the 80’s? Cuz I’ll bet it was %^*& all given that very few would ever be televised and you’d have been lucky to see some short highlights at best.
Click to expand...
Poor straw man attempt there squire.

Genuinely hope wee Messi can get this monkey off his back and win at least one World Cup, it must haunt his dreams the number of attempts ending in failure however having seen the opening two matches he’s played I just don’t think it will ever happen for him.
 
Bluebeard said:
Poor straw man attempt there squire.

Genuinely hope wee Messi can get this monkey off his back and win at least one World Cup, it must haunt his dreams the number of attempts ending in failure however having seen the opening two matches he’s played I just don’t think it will ever happen for him.
Click to expand...

Straw man? I’ve presented you with a series of facts and shown you where you’ve contradicted yourself. I know you’re a top troll and that’s what you’re famous for but you can at least have a go at refuting my points, I mean you definitely won’t be able to win this debate because I’ve stuck to reality and am not perpetuating myths and folklore, but at least give it a go. Incidentally do you know what straw man means? Or are you purposefully getting it wrong for laughs akin to “water off a dug’s back” and “fallen by the waist line”?

That’s another thing, you said Messi folds under the pressure for Argentina. He’s taken them to 5 international finals and recently put on a series of inspired individual displays to win them their first international title since 86. He’s also their record scorer, I mean he didn’t exactly fold under the pressure last night did he? When his team were flapping and the clock was ticking down. Do you think it haunted the wee coke head’s dreams that he couldn’t get near Europe’s top prize?
 
Pirlo said:
Straw man? I’ve presented you with a series of facts and shown you where you’ve contradicted yourself. I know you’re a top troll and that’s what you’re famous for but you can at least have a go at refuting my points, I mean you definitely won’t be able to win this debate because I’ve stuck to reality and am not perpetuating myths and folklore, but at least give it a go. Incidentally do you know what straw man means? Or are you purposefully getting it wrong for laughs akin to “water off a dug’s back” and “fallen by the waist line”?

That’s another thing, you said Messi folds under the pressure for Argentina. He’s taken them to 5 international finals and recently put on a series of inspired individual displays to win them their first international title since 86. He’s also their record scorer, I mean he didn’t exactly fold under the pressure last night did he? When his team were flapping and the clock was ticking down.
Click to expand...
I’ll pop you on ignore. The thread is about Messi not weird quotations and ramblings. Maybe you should head to bed before posting any more today.

As for Messi I hope he does it but I don’t think he will. Feel for him in some ways but that’s the way it goes sometimes.
 
CooperBlu11 said:
My issue with Messi is that he needs the team style built around him for him to perform well whereas the other names mentioned can slot into near enough any other style and still do the business.

CR7 will always be better than Messi for that reason.

Zidane is still the GOAT and doubt anyone will ever replace him.
Click to expand...
Neither PSG or Argentina have the players he had at Barca or employ a system remotely like theirs so how did you come to that conclusion?

The guy that can beat players for fun and has more solo goals in his highlight reel than any other player in the history of the sport needs the team to play well, but the tap in merchant doesn’t? Doesn’t make much sense mate.
 
Bluebeard said:
I’ll pop you on ignore. The thread is about Messi not weird quotations and ramblings. Maybe you should head to bed before posting any more today.

As for Messi I hope he does it but I don’t think he will. Feel for him in some ways but that’s the way it goes sometimes.
Click to expand...
Well not that it’s a contest, but I think we can safely say I’ve skelped you there, seeing as you’re actually running away to avoid addressing any of the points made.
 
Bluebeard said:
I’ll pop you on ignore. The thread is about Messi not weird quotations and ramblings. Maybe you should head to bed before posting any more today.

As for Messi I hope he does it but I don’t think he will. Feel for him in some ways but that’s the way it goes sometimes.
Click to expand...
What a bizarre thing to say.

Although I’m sure when looking back at his failure of a career he will take comfort from the sympathy shown by Bluebeard… B-D
 
CooperBlu11 said:
My issue with Messi is that he needs the team style built around him for him to perform well whereas the other names mentioned can slot into near enough any other style and still do the business.

CR7 will always be better than Messi for that reason.

Zidane is still the GOAT and doubt anyone will ever replace him.
Click to expand...
We all have our thoughts on who the greatest is, it’s Pele of course but it’s difficult for younger generations to understand or visualise that when they didn’t see him play and footage is limited.

But you are spot on about Messi - he’s had the privilege of playing in one of the most successful Barcelona sides of all time alongside a galaxy of stars and they essentially built their side to suit his play, and when he eventually came out of that comfort blanket he joined the richest club side in Europe again alongside elite players for one last big payday . The football equivalent of being born with a silver spoon in your mouth. That’s not to denigrate him as a player - I’ve enjoyed watching him especially his early days at Barca , and he is for sure a top 10 player if any list was to be drawn up.
 
Pirlo said:
Neither PSG or Argentina have the players he had at Barca or employ a system remotely like theirs so how did you come to that conclusion?

The guy that can beat players for fun and has more solo goals in his highlight reel than any other player in the history of the sport needs the team to play well, but the tap in merchant doesn’t? Doesn’t make much sense mate.
Click to expand...

Think you might need to go back and research how they set out their teams, mate.
 
When sky had the Spanish football I’d watch Barca every weekend just to watch him, and he never disappointed. Him and Ronaldo have been a pleasure to watch through the years.
 
So Messi is discredited for scoring bucket loads of goals in the toughest competition on the planet because he played for (and was the main man) Barca, but Pele is to be revered for scoring goals for Brazil?!

He was hardly banging them in for Cape Verde.
 
knightswood_bear said:
What a bizarre thing to say.

Although I’m sure when looking back at his failure of a career he will take comfort from the sympathy shown by Bluebeard… B-D
Click to expand...
In a purely sporting sense you’ve got to feel for him. This is his fifth and final attempt at winning it , having got to just one final and lost, it’s going to be something he carries with him if he doesn’t do it. No matter how rich and successful a sportsman is, that kind of thing can lie heavy. I like wee Messi he’s been an excellent wee player and has been great to watch over the years.
 
CooperBlu11 said:
Think you might need to go back and research how they set out their teams, mate.
Click to expand...
I think you need to heed your own advice mate. If you think they’ve all been playing tiki taka then someone’s lied to you. When Argentina got to the WC final they were actually quite defensive in the knockouts, couldn’t be any further from Barcelona. Not only that the player himself has went from playing right wing, to “false 9”, to more of deeper lying playmaker. At PSG he’s not even the main man, so again you’d be way off.

As I said how can a player who excels in dribbling and passing rely more on his team than a player who is basically a goalscorer and needs chances to be created on his behalf? When your man Ronaldo isn’t scoring he tends to be about as much use as a nun’s sookers.
 
Bluebeard said:
In a purely sporting sense you’ve got to feel for him. This is his fifth and final attempt at winning it , having got to just one final and lost, it’s going to be something he carries with him if he doesn’t do it. No matter how rich and successful a sportsman is, that kind of thing can lie heavy. I like wee Messi he’s been an excellent wee player and has been great to watch over the years.
Click to expand...
Well I’m sure he will be comforted to hear that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Latest posts

Back
Top