Matt Busby and Bill Shankly

dh1963

Well-Known Member
2 Scottish managers who are worshipped in Liverpool and Manchester and who are probably most influential in their teams becoming the biggest in England.

Which one would you say was the greater manager?
 
Well before my time but given what I know I’d say Busby. He reputably has the best team in the world at the time with the Busby Babes that we tragically never got to find out due to the air crash, rebuilt a team after Munich that went on to win domestic titles and European Cup and after he left Utd were only winning the odd cup until the arrival of another Scot who went on to surpass Busby’s achievements
 
At a push I'd say Busby. By all accounts the side they lost at Munich were shaping up to be something special, Duncan Edwards in particular. To rebuild a side capable of winning the European cup 10 years later overcoming his injuries was a huge feat. He obviously had an eye for a player as well , when his rebuilt side was topped off withe Georgè Best.
 
50/50. Busby won the bigger trophies when he was manager but Shankly laid the foundations for a Liverpool dynasty.

Imo Paisley (although not Scottish) is every bit as good as Busby, Fergie and Shankly. He did the tactics for Shankly and then led Liverpool to unparalleled success when he took over as manager. He is still the only British manager to win 3 European Cups, and he did it over a 5 year period.
 
Very hard to separate them as managers but i'd say Shankly. Trophy wise Busby was the more successful but Shankly built a legacy which was built upon after his retirement, Busby, after the 1968 European success seemed to be content that he had achieved what he set out to achieve after Munich.
Shankly was never satisfied and looked to improve season by season. Both great managers though.
 
Both colossal and instrumental in laying the foundations for two great clubs, pioneers of great Scottish managers. Hard to call so I'll sit on the fence (Bottler).

How did busby lay foundations?

He won the league in 67 but utd didnt win it again until 93.

During that time they got relegated, had some shit managers and shit teams and apart from the odd cup win did nothing of note.
 
Busby's achievements were greater in elevating Manchester United to the top of English football during his period in charge, although one has to factor in the Munich effect in creating United's international appeal.
However when he left and without his personal influence, there was no legacy on the field of play or in the manager's office/coaching staff.
Shankly took Liverpool from second division obscurity to the top of English and European football and when he left the legacy behind the scenes was so powerful that it thrived and actually flourished after his retirement.
It took events at Hillsborough to scupper Liverpool's dominance.

Ironically the tragedy of Munich gave United an aura and a sympathy beyond football that elevated their profile as a football club throughout the game, whilst the catastrophic events at Hillsborough maybe toppled Liverpool from their dominant position at the top of European and world football.

The influence of Scots in management is felt throughout English football and is a powerful strand that runs through the entire history of the English game like writing through a stick of rock.
 
How did busby lay foundations?

He won the league in 67 but utd didnt win it again until 93.

During that time they got relegated, had some shit managers and shit teams and apart from the odd cup win did nothing of note.
Arguably the Munich air crash robbed him of being the first British manager to win the European cup with the Busby babes . He built that team from being a second division side.
 
It is simple.

Busby, one of them.
Shanks, one of us.

So Shanks. No fcuking contest.
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Hard to choose Busby and Shankly took both teams that were 2nd best in their cities to number 1.Busby also also rebuilt the stadium as well as team,who posters mentioned looked certain to progress to European final before fatal night.Shankly was tracksuit manager getting 100% out of players who didn't make it at other clubs and turned the city into red.Shankly incidentally wanted to manage Rangers a old friend of his years ago I worked with.Shanks for me as I feel he had that unbeatable spirit and hated losing..
 
Hard to choose Busby and Shankly took both teams that were 2nd best in their cities to number 1.Busby also also rebuilt the stadium as well as team,who posters mentioned looked certain to progress to European final before fatal night.Shankly was tracksuit manager getting 100% out of players who didn't make it at other clubs and turned the city into red.Shankly incidentally wanted to manage Rangers a old friend of his years ago I worked with.Shanks for me as I feel he had that unbeatable spirit and hated losing..
One other interesting observation of both men is their attitude to religion in football.
Busby was a Roman Catholic who made strides in his time to embed Roman Catholicism into the DNA of the Old Trafford club which in the period concerned was a ridiculous backward notion as the sixties saw the advancement of a more egalitarian approach to civil life.

In direct contrast, the Presbyterian Shankly took the opposite view to football and his club, where he totally eschewed tribalistic values with a modern world view that football was too important to allow petty human divisive inclinations to interfere and where the only religion in Anfield was Liverpool FC.
 
Shankly all day and every day for me. Was at Wembley for Scotland England game one year when we filled most of stadium and about 10 minutes before kick off a ripple of noise started spreading around ground. Shankly was on track side walking round urging fans to make a noise. The racket was unbelievable.
 
Shankly is the man.

An infectious enthusiast, he built up Liverpool from a Second Division club in neutral gear to one of the most feared and respected sides in Europe. He instilled a pride in the club and the City that lasted a generation (and, arguably, has only recently been restored by a manager who has followed the template laid down by Shankly.)

The greatest achievements were under the stewardship of Bob Paisley but despite his undoubted qualities, Paisley was a modest man who would never have been a manager were the baton not passed to him by Shanks.

If you ever feel yourself falling out of love with football, or life in general, a reading of Bill Shankly's autobiography will soothe your soul.
 
How did busby lay foundations?

He won the league in 67 but utd didnt win it again until 93.

During that time they got relegated, had some shit managers and shit teams and apart from the odd cup win did nothing of note.
Your ignorance is astounding.
Busby built three great sides, and pioneered English clubs playing in Europe. He managed Utd for 25 years and produced one of the finest sides these islands have ever seen The Busby Babes. He barely survived the air crash and then produced his third great side.
As I said.....astounding.
 
I would say you have two great managers in a time when managers ran the club. Busby could have had a dynasty but for Munich and Shankly did leave a legacy... But neither matched Paisley or Clough.. to throw spanner in
 
I would say you have two great managers in a time when managers ran the club. Busby could have had a dynasty but for Munich and Shankly did leave a legacy... But neither matched Paisley or Clough.. to throw spanner in
Aye, but when it came to Paisley and Clough...one of us or one of them?
 
50/50. Busby won the bigger trophies when he was manager but Shankly laid the foundations for a Liverpool dynasty.

Imo Paisley (although not Scottish) is every bit as good as Busby, Fergie and Shankly. He did the tactics for Shankly and then led Liverpool to unparalleled success when he took over as manager. He is still the only British manager to win 3 European Cups, and he did it over a 5 year period.
I agree, think Paisley surpassed everything that Shankly did but he was a much more modest character
 
Shankly for me, he built Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. There are managers who have won more trophies but the foundations Shankly put in place at Liverpool allowed them to go and be successful season after season.
 
Shankly by a distance.Even taking away the fact Busby was a bitter pape he had the holy trinity up front to rely on.Shankly built a a club that would dominate home and abroad for 2 decades.
 
Shankly for me.
One main reason is he didn't waste around 12 trophyless years trying to squeeze a useless RC, (McGuinness, O'Farrell, Docherty and Sexton) into the managerial chair as his successor.
 
I liked them both, Shanks built the longer legacy, but Jean Busby was my Gran's first cousin, so it's a family thing.
 
I have to day that both are worthy of respect for what they achieved, but Shankly for me was the better of the two.
Not only for his personal achievements but what others built on after he left, Busby didn't really leave Man U like that.
Also, Shankly stories are football legend (inviting journos to walk round Ron Yeats, football is not life & death etc) but I can't think of many Busby ones.
 
Think Matt Busby played with my great uncle at Denny Hibernian.
Uncle Alex also went onto play with with Marseille and PNE
 
I have to day that both are worthy of respect for what they achieved, but Shankly for me was the better of the two.
Not only for his personal achievements but what others built on after he left, Busby didn't really leave Man U like that.
Also, Shankly stories are football legend (inviting journos to walk round Ron Yeats, football is not life & death etc) but I can't think of many Busby ones.
So, the Busby Babes aren't legends? Losing your best players and re building doesn't make a legend? Nearly die in a plane crash? Busby had those balls. Shankly was never asked those questions. Shankly never won the league. Shankly was the first PR style manager in England. And was in the Celtic dressing room in 1967 in Lisbon. Have a word with yourself.
 
One other interesting observation of both men is their attitude to religion in football.
Busby was a Roman Catholic who made strides in his time to embed Roman Catholicism into the DNA of the Old Trafford club which in the period concerned was a ridiculous backward notion as the sixties saw the advancement of a more egalitarian approach to civil life.

In direct contrast, the Presbyterian Shankly took the opposite view to football and his club, where he totally eschewed tribalistic values with a modern world view that football was too important to allow petty human divisive inclinations to interfere and where the only religion in Anfield was Liverpool FC.
Although I am aware Busby was a Shettleston Harrier, Where is the evidence about him trying to embed RC into the DNA of Manchester United. Majority of poor souls killed in Munich were not catholics. Duncan Edwards arguably the greatest player of his time definately Church of England (I've seen his grave) Holy trinity of Law, Charlton and Best all prods.
 
It has to be Shankly.

His team was outstanding and no one has left a club with a legacy like he did.

Sir Awix was a better manager than Busby and he too left the club in a shambles on his retirement.
 
Although I am aware Busby was a Shettleston Harrier, Where is the evidence about him trying to embed RC into the DNA of Manchester United. Majority of poor souls killed in Munich were not catholics. Duncan Edwards arguably the greatest player of his time definately Church of England (I've seen his grave) Holy trinity of Law, Charlton and Best all prods.
Oh, it was a fact and signing Prods to play on the park was just a matter of expediency.
There is a lot of evidence to support this,
I have read a fair bit over the years about Sir Matt and many testimonies to his adherence to his faith and its promotion in places of influence around Old Trafford.
However, I am not inclined to go back over all of the books I have read just to free you of your scepticism.
No one said you had to believe me.
 
Although I am aware Busby was a Shettleston Harrier, Where is the evidence about him trying to embed RC into the DNA of Manchester United. Majority of poor souls killed in Munich were not catholics. Duncan Edwards arguably the greatest player of his time definately Church of England (I've seen his grave) Holy trinity of Law, Charlton and Best all prods.
There was a documemtary about ManU in the 80's - a descedent of Busby proudly proclaimed, "It's a Catholic club, we all know that."

Maybe explains why the mentally challengeds had an affinity with them at that time. All ancient history now, but I've read both Busby and Shankly's autobiographies: Shankly was a football man first and last, Busby was a Tim first and a football man last.

There's the difference.
 
I would say you have two great managers in a time when managers ran the club. Busby could have had a dynasty but for Munich and Shankly did leave a legacy... But neither matched Paisley or Clough.. to throw spanner in

But Paisley wouldn't have enjoyed the success he had without the platform, foundations and infrastructure built by Shankly.

And Paisley was a giant of a manager, no question.
 
Oh, it was a fact and signing Prods to play on the park was just a matter of expediency.
There is a lot of evidence to support this,
I have read a fair bit over the years about Sir Matt and many testimonies to his adherence to his faith and its promotion in places of influence around Old Trafford.
However, I am not inclined to go back over all of the books I have read just to free you of your scepticism.
No one said you had to believe me.

And let's not forget the influence of Louis Edwards?

But hey, there's only religion to be found in football at Ibrox
 
I'm sure I recall Jimmy Millar telling a story about a conversation he had with Bill Shankly outside Hampden at an international, maybe against Uruguay?
Anyway, the upshot of the story is Bill saying to Jimmy...."Jimmy son, never forget that you're representing the greatest club in the land".

My old man used to talk about how things would've turned out if Shankly and not Symon had replaced Bill Struth in 1954? We'll never know, and to be fair, we did more than okay with Scot Symon.
 
I once read in a biography of Bill Shankly - unfortunately I don't have the details - that the great man actually submitted a handwritten letter of application (as was customary in those days) for the position of Rangers manager - which was subsequently given to Scot Symon.

Whilst Symon was quite a successful manager, one can only think back with regret and speculate at what old 'Shanks' could have made of the Ibrox job.
 
Alex Ferguson has to be up there with them. Yes he done it with Man Utd in an era when money played a big factor, but what he done at Aberdeen before he even went south was incredible.
 
Both colossal and instrumental in laying the foundations for two great clubs, pioneers of great Scottish managers. Hard to call so I'll sit on the fence (Bottler).
I agree, and is also unfair to compare the two. I can only speak from looking at their careers through youtube etc, but both incredible figures in the game.
 
Just a little side note that may interest all.
When Bill Shankly was manager at Anfield.
Brother Bob was manager at Anfield (Stirling Albion.)
Quite a coincidence eh!:p

They both won their respective leagues in season 1961/62.

Bill, the second division at Liverpool. And the rest is history.

Bob at Dens Park in the Scottish first. Owing in some part to a Rangers collapse in the last few games.
 
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